The Reason Why You Cant

[WreckitWhippet]

To breed just for dilute is unethical. To breed with an affected dog just to get dilute would be unethical.

To date it appears that the scientists haven't pinpointed what causes colour dilution alopecia therefore I don't see how anyone can breed to totally avoid it.

For the SBT breeders it's simple... don't breed blue and remove the accidents that crop up from the gene pool.

[conztruct]

LOL are people seriously debating whether a dog is cute or not?

It had to happen!

No - I think the debate was more about if you didn't find the dog cute in your opinion whether or not you should say so.

[TessiesTracey]

To breed just for dilute is unethical. To breed with an affected dog just to get dilute would be unethical.

To date it appears that the scientists haven't pinpointed what causes colour dilution alopecia therefore I don't see how anyone can breed to totally avoid it.

For the SBT breeders it's simple... don't breed blue and remove the accidents that crop up from the gene pool.

But do you think they're going to do that? I'm only asking as has already been mentioned, MOST SBT breeders breed for type, conformation, health, NOT colour. But as the blue colouration IS permitted in the standard, do you really think they're going to 'remove the accidents'?

As I said, not wanting an argument with anyone here, just genuinely interested (as a non breeder, and some time exhibitor).

[WreckitWhippet]

While ever there is a demand for the colour, probably not. But it's simple enough to remove them from the gene pool by desexing. Even if the registered breeders ceased to produce them, I'm sure the BYBers would happily pick up the slack.

I know it's a simple answer but if you want to avoid dilution alopecia, don't breed dilutes

[Dee_al]

firstly, i started the thread to tell my OH why i wouldnt be showing hi,, becaus as i said i dont really have any intention whatsoever in showing dogs at all, not just this one but any dog. I have grown up with my mum showing GSD's so i know what goes on, the bitching, the little clicky groups, the people who will do anything just to win.

If i ever decided to step insid of a show ring, it wiuld be purely for the fun of it, being around mates and their dogs, i wouldnt be showing for points nd titles.

another thing, as i mentioned before, hes breeders didnt breed just for the sake of the colour! yes he is a blue stafford, but that doesnt mean that they purposly bred a litter of puppies just in case they may get a blue one.

i honestly really dont care what half of you think of my dog, hes my dog not yours so keep your opinions to yourself. i wouldnt just go up to yolu and say oh, you have an ugly dog. its called manners people! and respect.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Dee_al

[TessiesTracey]

While ever there is a demand for the colour, probably not. But it's simple enough to remove them from the gene pool by desexing. Even if the registered breeders ceased to produce them, I'm sure the BYBers would happily pick up the slack.

I know it's a simple answer but if you want to avoid dilution alopecia, don't breed dilutes

Ahhh... for the simple answers, I'm all for that Just a shame the simplest answers don't work eh? (And I'm not being sarcastic, I really really mean it!).

I guess that's why we don't have so many blue's coming through rescue, they're too much of a money spinner for some......the BYBers....

Sad...

[JulesP]

To breed just for dilute is unethical. To breed with an affected dog just to get dilute would be unethical.

To date it appears that the scientists haven't pinpointed what causes colour dilution alopecia therefore I don't see how anyone can breed to totally avoid it.

For the SBT breeders it's simple... don't breed blue and remove the accidents that crop up from the gene pool.

Actually it is easier then that. Get your dogs colour tested and don't breed 2 staffies that both have a d gene. If you are so serious about never breeding blue then surely that is what an ethical breeder would do.

[SparkyTansy]

my interest was obviously the creaters of the weimarener have managed it so it is not impossible after all? someone somewhere during its creation stuck to the one colour or there would be blacks, blues and livers to be found. because they are this composition no blacks or livers could ever appear , the breedrs of them are so lucky they havnt been tarred as unethical because of the colour they are. are they not.

The creators of the Weimaraner started with a plan to breed a dog with specific traits which were useful to them. I honestly doubt they started with a plan to breed a grey dog

THERE is the big difference.

No one seems to know how dilute alopecia is come-by but if it is genetic then the Wei breeders obviously removed those dogs from the original gene pool pretty quickly.

If it is an automatic result of having a dilute colour and not inherited as a separate trait then Weis would be affected, which apparently they aren't.

actually there isnt a big difference, think about it. if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

I find that people breeding for true working dogs are less scrutinized because their dogs are doing a specific job, not just breeding to a standard of a dog that used to do a specific job. look at the Greyhound - a dog that is bred as far from colour preference as possible. They are bred to run. What if, coincidentally, in a certain year every single dog that is winning and placing consistently is blue? Do you think people would start jumping up and down, even if generations later they are still winning, just because they bred dilute to dilute? The only problem that might have to be faced then would be idiots who might start breeding just for blue because they think they can run faster :D

[blustaff]

can i plz add to this, i am the owner of a blue stafford which i show and am starting to do quite well with... he has multiple best in puppy and best in intermediate wins and also 2 reserve challenges, out of 7 weekends of showing! and he is 18 months old so hasnt been groomed for the ring and this is making it harder for both me and him...

I personally beleive and its just my opinion, that he is true to standard in height and weight he has a beautiful solid blue coat and a lovely head with a very nice stop, a lovely back line and perfect jaw, he has never had any skin conditions.

I know i dont say all of this in the true show/breeding words but i am new to the ring and dont breed. alot of people at shows have been quick to comment to me that he infact has a black nose as this is the first thing that is looked by other stafford people he also has dark eyes and all black nails! Judges have also commented to me that he is a beautiful blue dog and not to give up , to keep at it that once he and myself are confident in the ring he will do well, those types of comments are why i am still proudly showing my blue boy. at our last show the judge commented also saying he was a very nice stafford and the he liked him alot, another judge on the same weekend also said she like him alot...we were competing against a champion and obviously beeing so new to it can not expect to win, he did how ever beat the black female, being handled by a very experienced breeder/handler.

i know that in saying these comments i will probly be put in my box very fast by some but i will remain proud of owning such a gorgeous stafford regardless of his color. he deserves to be out there just as much as any other in my opinion.

[JulesP]

Unless you were the only dog in the class blustaff then I am not sure how anyone can give you crap about it. You have the results on the board.

[blustaff]

oh i didnt mean to imply that anyone has or would give me crap about it, i have been very lucky to have met some wonderful stafford owners as well as other breeds, i really enjoy being there and think there is a plzce for blues in the ring....as long as they are to standard of course.

[Diva]

he deserves to be out there just as much as any other in my opinion.

You have the courage to test his conformation in the ring and you shouldn't be criticised for that.

I can entirely understand why breeding for colour infuriates staffordshire bull terrier breeders and how it does great damage to the breed. But if you happen to have a good blue dog you have every right to stack him up against the others and let the judges decide. He'll have his faults, all dogs do, but it's the overall quality that matters. Testing that is just what those who breed only for colour don't do.

[blustaff]

i agree with alot of the blue arguments, i do see alot of breeders only breeding for color and i agree is very wrong a stafford or any breed should be bred for quality not color, and defenatly not just to get the money for the so called rare colors. i personally wanted a blue stafford and there did buy for color i did how ever get a very well bred blue dog that has turned out to be of "show standard" i was just lucky i guess.

[Guest Tess32]

There are plenty of "second rate" dogs being shown if you listen to the ringside comments from onlookers. Not exclusive to staffies though.

So being "second rate" in someones opinion shouldn't preclude a dog from the show ring.

or even a CH title from whats been seen in the past

wasnt that why the "petrol Ch" saying came about?

Only the most heartless of exhibitors/breeders would encourage someone to show a dog with severe conformation faults, that lacked type or had an obvious disqualifying fault. There is nothing more demoralising to a new exhibitor than to show a dog that does nothing but lose.

It happens all the time. No one told me. I think if breeders are going to let newbies show a dog they should at least have the balls to tell them the dog didn't turn out good enough.

[poodlefan]

It happens all the time. No one told me. I think if breeders are going to let newbies show a dog they should at least have the balls to tell them the dog didn't turn out good enough.

I agree. That assumes that the breeder has sufficient knowledge to make that call. You don't need to know a hell of a lot about conformaton and type to breed dogs. You don't have to show or produce champions to sell a puppy as "show quality". You just need a Main Register dog and a Main Register bitch that are fertile.

And therein lies the root of the problem for me.

[jadesamara]

For the SBT breeders it's simple... don't breed blue and remove the accidents that crop up from the gene pool.

I ummed and ahhed about posting here, but what the heck!

As you probably guessed, I bought my blue boy from a BYB. That was BEFORE I found DOL, and back then I knew no better. I do now, so please no :D

My boy has skin issues, and no, I was not informed that blue's are prone to skin issues (no big surprise, right?). My boy also has an overshot jaw. I was told of this, but not the implications (i.e. his lower canines jut into the roof of his mouth/palate). As I had no intention of showing or breeding, I didn't mind.

My question is this - what would have happened to him if he was born into a litter of a reputable breeder? Would he have been PTS due to his jaw? I have often wondered. I know dogs that aren't "show standard" could be sold to homes as pets, but would the same happen for dogs with a physical (but not disabling) fault?

I am perfectly happy with my boy, and wouldn't swap him for quids. He's a wonderful pet, and is great with my children. I would be lost without him.

[poodlefan]

My boy has skin issues, and no, I was not informed that blue's are prone to skin issues (no big surprise, right?). My boy also has an overshot jaw. I was told of this, but not the implications (i.e. his lower canines jut into the roof of his mouth/palate). As I had no intention of showing or breeding, I didn't mind.

Keep a close eye on the condition of his front teeth. They may be more prone to tartar than in a dog with more correct bite.

[raz]

My boy has skin issues, and no, I was not informed that blue's are prone to skin issues (no big surprise, right?). My boy also has an overshot jaw. I was told of this, but not the implications (i.e. his lower canines jut into the roof of his mouth/palate). As I had no intention of showing or breeding, I didn't mind.

Keep a close eye on the condition of his front teeth. They may be more prone to tartar than in a dog with more correct bite.

They might need to be ground down under GA as well - if they're piercing his palate he wont be very comfy.

[3Woofs]

My boy has skin issues, and no, I was not informed that blue's are prone to skin issues (no big surprise, right?). My boy also has an overshot jaw. I was told of this, but not the implications (i.e. his lower canines jut into the roof of his mouth/palate). As I had no intention of showing or breeding, I didn't mind.

Inverted canines are common in staffords..... even from registered ethical breeders.

Please get him checked out if they are piercing the top palate. Not only is this very painful, it also allows bacteria to get into the holes. Even if he is eating fine, he is probably in pain. Staffords are tough and don't always show how much pain they really are in.

Blah... can't be bothered going back to read 10 pages of the same comments that are written every couple of weeks when a new blue stafford thread pops up.

[jadesamara]

My boy has skin issues, and no, I was not informed that blue's are prone to skin issues (no big surprise, right?). My boy also has an overshot jaw. I was told of this, but not the implications (i.e. his lower canines jut into the roof of his mouth/palate). As I had no intention of showing or breeding, I didn't mind.

Keep a close eye on the condition of his front teeth. They may be more prone to tartar than in a dog with more correct bite.

Thanks for your advice poodlefan, Raz and BlueStaff. I often check inside his mouth, and I have had the vet check it a few months ago. I will certainly be getting it checked regularly though, as the vet explained what can happen and how he may need GA to take care of it.

And thanks also for not shooting me down!