The Reason Why You Cant

[poodlefan]

have a friend who had been on a waiting list for a top quality male. wanted and adult to make sure it was exactly what she was paying for. the dog sold was an australian champion.. got it home, watched it move with her dogs and realised it had a major fault not in their dogs. when told the seller, was advised that all its other attributs outweighed its one problem and to stop fault judging, that as none of her males or bitches had it to simply put the daughters back to her males and the results should be great, was horrified. and so upset has resigned from their breed club and contemplating resigning as a registered breeder is so upset

so it happens

Yes it does. It doesn't make it right. My guess is that a total unknown exhibitor with that dog would never have titled it. :D:

It still wouldn't see me encouraging someone with a dog with that issue to show it, ESPECIALLY in a highly competitive breed. I'd sure as hell not breed from it.

Edited November 10, 2010 by poodlefan

[JulesP]

Chocolate is not a dilute. The genes involed in the colors you describe are a bit more complex and there are different ones at work. Could you please tell me where the statistics for occurance of blue gene alopecia are quoted from. It seems to me to be very high.

if u put two black dogs that carry chocolate, on average half the pups will be chocolate. sounds and acts like a recessive dilute to me?

if you put a blue to a chocolate, neither carrying the other colour of the partner, what will you get? BLACK.

again that sure looks like how recessive dilutes act?

if the chocolate is added to golds it doesnt make the gold coat brown, it only dilutes black, so all they get is a chocolate nose. seen heaps of labradors with brown noses, again if it turnes black to brown, seems like dilute to me. blue does the same except the change is to blue.

at least u dont get alopecia in chocolates... hurray

Chocolate is a recessive but it is not a dilute. Dilute and recessive are different things. Chocolate can be diluted, to fawn/lilac. Chocolate and the dilute gene are on different locus. Chocolate is on the B locus and the dilute gene is on the D locus.

This site explains it all pretty well - http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/

[asal]

have a friend who had been on a waiting list for a top quality male. wanted and adult to make sure it was exactly what she was paying for. the dog sold was an australian champion.. got it home, watched it move with her dogs and realised it had a major fault not in their dogs. when told the seller, was advised that all its other attributs outweighed its one problem and to stop fault judging, that as none of her males or bitches had it to simply put the daughters back to her males and the results should be great, was horrified. and so upset has resigned from their breed club and contemplating resigning as a registered breeder is so upset

so it happens

Yes it does. It doesn't make it right.

It still wouldn't see me encouraging someone with a dog with that issue to show it, ESPECIALLY in a highly competitive breed. I'd sure as hell not breed from it. :D

errr where did i say it was right????

all i said was it happens and gave an example

Edited November 10, 2010 by asal

[poodlefan]

errr where did i say it was right????

all i said was it happens and gave an example

You didn't.. I was continuing on from the point I quoted about there supposedly being a lot of second rate dogs in the show ring.

[asal]

Chocolate is not a dilute. The genes involed in the colors you describe are a bit more complex and there are different ones at work. Could you please tell me where the statistics for occurance of blue gene alopecia are quoted from. It seems to me to be very high.

if u put two black dogs that carry chocolate, on average half the pups will be chocolate. sounds and acts like a recessive dilute to me?

if you put a blue to a chocolate, neither carrying the other colour of the partner, what will you get? BLACK.

again that sure looks like how recessive dilutes act?

if the chocolate is added to golds it doesnt make the gold coat brown, it only dilutes black, so all they get is a chocolate nose. seen heaps of labradors with brown noses, again if it turnes black to brown, seems like dilute to me. blue does the same except the change is to blue.

at least u dont get alopecia in chocolates... hurray

Chocolate is a recessive but it is not a dilute. Dilute and recessive are different things. Chocolate can be diluted, to fawn/lilac. Chocolate and the dilute gene are on different locus. Chocolate is on the B locus and the dilute gene is on the D locus.

This site explains it all pretty well - http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/

thanks,, so blue can dilute chocolate to lilac? yet from what i have learned the progeny have to have two blue and two chocolate or lilac does not occur. this applies not just to dogs but also to cats from what i have seen with my friends himalayans

or is there another that does it?

i notice if you put a lilac to a black if it doesnt carry blue or chocolate all the pups will be black hence my assumption of it being a dilute same as blue.

[asal]

thanks for the link

"The same dilution gene that causes a black dog to become blue also causes a liver dog to become isabella, which is a pale greyish brown. Dilution and liver are both recessive and relatively rare, so isabella is a rarely seen colour. It is, however, the colour of the Weimaraner, and also occurs occasionally in a handful of other breeds (any of the breeds in the list above which carry liver will come in isabella, although if both liver and dilution are rare in the breed anyway then isabella dogs may be barely known or even never reported).

An isabella dog will have the genotype bbdd (homozygous for liver, homozygous for dilution). "

which begs the question. since Weimaraner is all dilute obviously blue gene alopecia can be selected out of a line, i for one have never seen an affected Weimaraner.

which also proves breeding for blue does not automaticaly mean breeding for health and skin problems? is that right?

Edited November 10, 2010 by asal

[poodlefan]

which begs the question. since Weimaraner is all dilute obviously blue gene alopecia can be selected out of a line, i for one have never seen an affected Weimaraner.

which also proves breeding for blue does not automaticaly mean breeding for health and skin problems? is that right?

Weims do suffer from coat and skin issues, many relating to thyroid disorders. Perhaps you've never seen a dog with the issue left untreated.

[Sandra777]

which begs the question. since Weimaraner is all dilute obviously blue gene alopecia can be selected out of a line, i for one have never seen an affected Weimaraner.

I'd venture to suggest that the people who 'created' the Wei had a purpose in mind which didn't involve $$$$ so any dog which displayed unwanted problems would have been disposed of - be that a lack of working ability or a failure to maintain good health. If it happened to be the 'right' colour too bad, it couldn't do the job so off it went.

which also proves breeding for blue does not automaticaly mean breeding for health and skin problems? is that right?

Yes and no IMO. Breeding FOR a colour will always compromise other things - it has to if the least important thing about the dog (the colour of it's hair) becomes the most important trait when chosing breeding stock. But did the originators of the Wei specifically breed for the colour or were they creating a working dog and it just so happened that the best two or three examples were that colour so the colour had nothing to do with them being chosen for breeding stock?

I have no doubt that it is possible to breed a healthy, well conformed, typical SBT in Blue (well actually I know for a fact that it is possible, I've bred blues which have had no issues, I have seen 3 really nice blues with no issues in the flesh) BUT - why would you want to? Why not breed really good dogs and be happy with whatever colour they happen to be? IMO - as soon as colour becomes even a vague consideration something else has to be sacrificed in the list of priorities.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Sandra777

[SparkyTansy]

Chocolate is not a dilute. The genes involed in the colors you describe are a bit more complex and there are different ones at work. Could you please tell me where the statistics for occurance of blue gene alopecia are quoted from. It seems to me to be very high.

if u put two black dogs that carry chocolate, on average half the pups will be chocolate. sounds and acts like a recessive dilute to me?

if you put a blue to a chocolate, neither carrying the other colour of the partner, what will you get? BLACK.

again that sure looks like how recessive dilutes act?

if the chocolate is added to golds it doesnt make the gold coat brown, it only dilutes black, so all they get is a chocolate nose. seen heaps of labradors with brown noses, again if it turnes black to brown, seems like dilute to me. blue does the same except the change is to blue.

at least u dont get alopecia in chocolates... hurray

Chocolate is a recessive but it is not a dilute. Dilute and recessive are different things. Chocolate can be diluted, to fawn/lilac. Chocolate and the dilute gene are on different locus. Chocolate is on the B locus and the dilute gene is on the D locus.

This site explains it all pretty well - http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/

thanks,, so blue can dilute chocolate to lilac? yet from what i have learned the progeny have to have two blue and two chocolate or lilac does not occur. this applies not just to dogs but also to cats from what i have seen with my friends himalayans

or is there another that does it?

i notice if you put a lilac to a black if it doesnt carry blue or chocolate all the pups will be black hence my assumption of it being a dilute same as blue.

if you put a dilute (of either colour lilac or blue) to a black dog that doesn't carry the dilute gene at all, then you won't get a dilute puppy... each puppy has a 100% chance of carrying (but not showing) the dilute gene. I'm not 100% on the percentage of blacks to browns if it was a lilac dog, but i do know that no puppies would show the dilute colour.

If you put a dilute to a black that carries the dilute gene, then you have a 50% chance of each pup being a carrier, and a 50% chance of each pup showing the dilute colour.

Two blacks together that both carry the dilute gene - each puppy has a 25% chance of being dilute, a 50% chance of being a carrier of dilute, and a 25% chance of not carrying.

You can't look at both things happening at once - colour (brown/black) doesn't impact on the incidence of dilute.

[SparkyTansy]

Yes the weimaraner was bred to be a working dog first and foremost... they may have bred for colour but even then, if the dog couldn't work it wasn't bred. This is still the case in Germany and weimaraners are very specifically bred with working/health in mind.

However, there are immune issues in weimaraners. Possibly from consistently breeding recessive to recessive - both liver and the dilute gene. At one stage it was quite common in the weimaraner - however a lot of hard work was put into ensuring that these lines were bred out and as far as I am aware, we rarely see immune issues in weimaraners in australia amongst the registered breeders. I have had a pup with immunodeficiency and it is ahorrible thing to see. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, and certainly not the dogs. I'd hate to see immune issues start to pop up in other breeds just because they are breeding it for it's colour.

[poodlefan]

Yes the weimaraner was bred to be a working dog first and foremost... they may have bred for colour but even then, if the dog couldn't work it wasn't bred. This is still the case in Germany and weimaraners are very specifically bred with working/health in mind.

However, there are immune issues in weimaraners. Possibly from consistently breeding recessive to recessive - both liver and the dilute gene. At one stage it was quite common in the weimaraner - however a lot of hard work was put into ensuring that these lines were bred out and as far as I am aware, we rarely see immune issues in weimaraners in australia amongst the registered breeders. I have had a pup with immunodeficiency and it is ahorrible thing to see. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, and certainly not the dogs. I'd hate to see immune issues start to pop up in other breeds just because they are breeding it for it's colour.

I gather inclusion of the LHW's in the breeding pool has assisted with that?

[asal]

Yes the weimaraner was bred to be a working dog first and foremost... they may have bred for colour but even then, if the dog couldn't work it wasn't bred. This is still the case in Germany and weimaraners are very specifically bred with working/health in mind.

However, there are immune issues in weimaraners. Possibly from consistently breeding recessive to recessive - both liver and the dilute gene. At one stage it was quite common in the weimaraner - however a lot of hard work was put into ensuring that these lines were bred out and as far as I am aware, we rarely see immune issues in weimaraners in australia amongst the registered breeders. I have had a pup with immunodeficiency and it is ahorrible thing to see. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, and certainly not the dogs. I'd hate to see immune issues start to pop up in other breeds just because they are breeding it for it's colour.

i know a cavalier certainly not bred for colour, the breeder has outstanding show dogs, conformation first and foremost full stop, one puppy had severe immune issues from 3 months on, the only way it could have a normal coat without severe allergies was lifetime on low dose ivermectin. when the breeder was notified the owner was told "thats a sign of his high breeding" like what the? it was purchased for show and breeding, its horrified owner had it desexed, no high breeding is a substitute for sound health and allergy free

[asal]

Yes the weimaraner was bred to be a working dog first and foremost... they may have bred for colour but even then, if the dog couldn't work it wasn't bred. This is still the case in Germany and weimaraners are very specifically bred with working/health in mind.

However, there are immune issues in weimaraners. Possibly from consistently breeding recessive to recessive - both liver and the dilute gene. At one stage it was quite common in the weimaraner - however a lot of hard work was put into ensuring that these lines were bred out and as far as I am aware, we rarely see immune issues in weimaraners in australia amongst the registered breeders. I have had a pup with immunodeficiency and it is ahorrible thing to see. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, and certainly not the dogs. I'd hate to see immune issues start to pop up in other breeds just because they are breeding it for it's colour.

my question was if the founders of the Weimaraner could select for both, then surely others who do also like a particular colour should be able to do the same thing, since this breed has been created and selected for soundness.

it can be done.

almost every post ive seen has said to breed for dilute is to be unethical

[JulesP]

To breed just for dilute is unethical. To breed with an affected dog just to get dilute would be unethical.

To date it appears that the scientists haven't pinpointed what causes colour dilution alopecia therefore I don't see how anyone can breed to totally avoid it.

[asal]

To breed just for dilute is unethical. To breed with an affected dog just to get dilute would be unethical.

To date it appears that the scientists haven't pinpointed what causes colour dilution alopecia therefore I don't see how anyone can breed to totally avoid it.

my interest was obviously the creaters of the weimarener have managed it so it is not impossible after all? someone somewhere during its creation stuck to the one colour or there would be blacks, blues and livers to be found. because they are this composition no blacks or livers could ever appear , the breedrs of them are so lucky they havnt been tarred as unethical because of the colour they are. are they not.

[asal]

Yes the weimaraner was bred to be a working dog first and foremost... they may have bred for colour but even then, if the dog couldn't work it wasn't bred. This is still the case in Germany and weimaraners are very specifically bred with working/health in mind.

However, there are immune issues in weimaraners. Possibly from consistently breeding recessive to recessive - both liver and the dilute gene. At one stage it was quite common in the weimaraner - however a lot of hard work was put into ensuring that these lines were bred out and as far as I am aware, we rarely see immune issues in weimaraners in australia amongst the registered breeders. I have had a pup with immunodeficiency and it is ahorrible thing to see. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, and certainly not the dogs. I'd hate to see immune issues start to pop up in other breeds just because they are breeding it for it's colour.

I gather inclusion of the LHW's in the breeding pool has assisted with that?

pardon my dumbness, what is LHW's?

[poodlefan]

Yes the weimaraner was bred to be a working dog first and foremost... they may have bred for colour but even then, if the dog couldn't work it wasn't bred. This is still the case in Germany and weimaraners are very specifically bred with working/health in mind.

However, there are immune issues in weimaraners. Possibly from consistently breeding recessive to recessive - both liver and the dilute gene. At one stage it was quite common in the weimaraner - however a lot of hard work was put into ensuring that these lines were bred out and as far as I am aware, we rarely see immune issues in weimaraners in australia amongst the registered breeders. I have had a pup with immunodeficiency and it is ahorrible thing to see. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, and certainly not the dogs. I'd hate to see immune issues start to pop up in other breeds just because they are breeding it for it's colour.

I gather inclusion of the LHW's in the breeding pool has assisted with that?

pardon my dumbness, what is LHW's?

Sorry. Longhaired Weimaraner

[Sandra777]

my interest was obviously the creaters of the weimarener have managed it so it is not impossible after all? someone somewhere during its creation stuck to the one colour or there would be blacks, blues and livers to be found. because they are this composition no blacks or livers could ever appear , the breedrs of them are so lucky they havnt been tarred as unethical because of the colour they are. are they not.

The creators of the Weimaraner started with a plan to breed a dog with specific traits which were useful to them. I honestly doubt they started with a plan to breed a grey dog

THERE is the big difference.

No one seems to know how dilute alopecia is come-by but if it is genetic then the Wei breeders obviously removed those dogs from the original gene pool pretty quickly.

If it is an automatic result of having a dilute colour and not inherited as a separate trait then Weis would be affected, which apparently they aren't.

[asal]

my interest was obviously the creaters of the weimarener have managed it so it is not impossible after all? someone somewhere during its creation stuck to the one colour or there would be blacks, blues and livers to be found. because they are this composition no blacks or livers could ever appear , the breedrs of them are so lucky they havnt been tarred as unethical because of the colour they are. are they not.

The creators of the Weimaraner started with a plan to breed a dog with specific traits which were useful to them. I honestly doubt they started with a plan to breed a grey dog

THERE is the big difference.

No one seems to know how dilute alopecia is come-by but if it is genetic then the Wei breeders obviously removed those dogs from the original gene pool pretty quickly.

If it is an automatic result of having a dilute colour and not inherited as a separate trait then Weis would be affected, which apparently they aren't.

actually there isnt a big difference, think about it. if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

[poodlefan]

actually there isnt a big difference, think about it. if the originators of the weimaraner today did this the screams of you cant breed dilute to dilute no matter how good it is at its job is UNETHICAL. would have stopped them in their tracks, who wants to be branded unethical.

Clearly a considerable number of blue SBT breeders aren't losing any sleep over the issue.