The Reason Why You Cant

[WreckitWhippet]

Not being fit for purpose is not the sole domain of a certain colour, they do however have more than their rare fair share of them and there is very little hope of the surrent situation improving.

Back to the topic of "showing" them, colour aside, very few of them would make the grade, the vast majority do not measure up.

[Remarkabull]

One thing I haven't got from the responses is whether a blue staffy is incapable of doing the job for which staffordshire bull terriers were bred.

I doubt dogs with excess flesh, flat large feet, straight stifles, dumpy front ends, bulldog fronts, large drop ears, narrow little underjaws, with narrow rows of incissors and short inverted canines, over done or over boned would be fit for purpose and go a round.

I'm no SBT expert but I agree with the above. Every one I have seen is hugely oversized and just doesn't look like a proper SBT.

Unfortunately, I have relatives (by marriage, don't hold it against me!) that have jumped on the Blue and Blue Fawn bandwagon and have been breeding them for a few years now. They are registered breeders and I have heard them talk about how good their males bloodlines are and also brag about the breeding and type of the recent stud they used over one of their bitches (had his pic on FB and he was a huge blue fawn dog). Thank doG that she didn't end up pregnant. They also sell these pups for a small fortune (more than twice what you could buy a good SBT from a good breeder). I have no doubt in my mind that they are in it for the money and I no longer join any conversation about dogs that they are in as it always ends up with some clueless person commenting at how beautiful their dogs are and then I really struggle to contain my opinion and end up frustrated and cranky.

[Sheridan]

Not being fit for purpose is not the sole domain of a certain colour, they do however have more than their rare fair share of them and there is very little hope of the surrent situation improving.

Back to the topic of "showing" them, colour aside, very few of them would make the grade, the vast majority do not measure up.

Right, so the colour doesn't matter because a blue staffy can be fit for purpose, which begs the question, why are they verboten?

[WreckitWhippet]

Not being fit for purpose is not the sole domain of a certain colour, they do however have more than their rare fair share of them and there is very little hope of the surrent situation improving.

Back to the topic of "showing" them, colour aside, very few of them would make the grade, the vast majority do not measure up.

Right, so the colour doesn't matter because a blue staffy can be fit for purpose, which begs the question, why are they verboten?

Why are they forbidden ? They aren't

[conztruct]

Not being fit for purpose is not the sole domain of a certain colour, they do however have more than their rare fair share of them and there is very little hope of the surrent situation improving.

Back to the topic of "showing" them, colour aside, very few of them would make the grade, the vast majority do not measure up.

Right, so the colour doesn't matter because a blue staffy can be fit for purpose, which begs the question, why are they verboten?

I'm not that knowledgable on staffies but from what I've read in the thread, I think that's been answered. It's a personal choice for the owner to decide if they are a good specimen of the breed or not and you're going to get a whole range of opinions.

The opinions of the staffie people on here who have responded is based on their experience in the breed over a long period of time. I don't think that any of them have said that a "blue" cannot be a good specimen but there is a greater risk of issues and there are some fundamental areas (black nose) where they genetically can't adhere to the standard.

While there are no disqualifications, I can totally understand a reluctance to show or use a dog in a breeding program where genetics increases the risk of health issues or you are starting behind the 8-ball in terms of using dogs that adhere to the standard.

Some breeders standards are very high which is a good thing I think, while others have different ideas - it all comes down to personal choice and I think all the posters have given us that - their personal opinion.

Blues are not forbidden per se but some breeders (and it's their choice!) consider them such from their own perspective.

Edited November 9, 2010 by conztruct

[Gayle.]

There are plenty of "second rate" dogs being shown if you listen to the ringside comments from onlookers. Not exclusive to staffies though.

So being "second rate" in someones opinion shouldn't preclude a dog from the show ring.

[Sheridan]

Not being fit for purpose is not the sole domain of a certain colour, they do however have more than their rare fair share of them and there is very little hope of the surrent situation improving.

Back to the topic of "showing" them, colour aside, very few of them would make the grade, the vast majority do not measure up.

Right, so the colour doesn't matter because a blue staffy can be fit for purpose, which begs the question, why are they verboten?

Why are they forbidden ? They aren't

Yet, you're dead set against them. Verboten for you.

I'm not that knowledgable on staffies but from what I've read in the thread, I think that's been answered. It's a personal choice for the owner to decide if they are a good specimen of the breed or not and you're going to get a whole range of opinions.

The opinions of the staffie people on here who have responded is based on their experience in the breed over a long period of time. I don't think that any of them have said that a "blue" cannot be a good specimen but there is a greater risk of issues and there are some fundamental areas (black nose) where they genetically can't adhere to the standard.

What is it about a slate nose that prevents a staffy from taking down a bull?

While there are no disqualifications, I can totally understand a reluctance to show or use a dog in a breeding program where genetics increases the risk of health issues or you are starting behind the 8-ball in terms of using dogs that adhere to the standard.

Some breeders standards are very high which is a good thing I think, while others have different ideas - it all comes down to personal choice and I think all the posters have given us that - their personal opinion.

Blues are not forbidden per se but some breeders (and it's their choice!) consider them such from their own perspective.

Does blue in a staffy actually increase the risk of health problems or again, is that down to bad breeding from unscrupulous BYBers wanting to cash in on a fad? Is blue in a staffy like white in a boxer that may increase the risk of deafness, for example?

Edited November 9, 2010 by Sheridan

[conztruct]

There are plenty of "second rate" dogs being shown if you listen to the ringside comments from onlookers. Not exclusive to staffies though.

So being "second rate" in someones opinion shouldn't preclude a dog from the show ring.

I don't think blues are precluded from showing - anyone who owns a blue is able to show it.

I've seen a dog at shows who some people would consider blue (I don't think he is, to me he looks like a steely gray brindle - help me out staffie people, I don't know if this colouring is a dilute and would come under the same category because I don't understand that), but he is an absolutely stunning, and I mean STUNNING dog and he wins a lot. So it seems that regardless of colour, if a dog is good quality it can do well.

I guess what the posters have highlighted though is that there may be problems and are areas where blues don't adhere to the standard - and some judges will pick this up. Just because some exhibitors personally choose not to show a dog that starts behind the rest because of non-compliance with the standard I don't think any of them are saying that others aren't allowed to make up their own mind. From what I've seen they've all said that people can do what they want but they personally wouldn't show and that's fair enough.

[WreckitWhippet]

dilution alopecia is just that.

[Tatelina]

You can show whatever you like. But just don't expect to win much under judges who know the standard.

Is there a concern that the more and more 'incorrect' colours/dogs/(whatever) are shown for the fun of it, eventually with time judges may lapse in their judgement, readjust their standards, or these incorrect colours/whatever are then eventually allowed in the breed code?

And would this increase the general publics opinion and view of these 'incorrect' colours which then may lead to higher demand, thus increasing damage to the reputation of correct dogs?

How important are the colour guidelines? What percentage of colour guidelines is related to health issues, versus just what looks 'good' and is the norm?

*question coming from a non-showy who has no idea how it works, to all showies.*

[Sandra777]

What is it about a slate nose that prevents a staffy from taking down a bull?

Since Staffords weren't bred to bring down bulls I am somewhat puzzled by your logic

There are several written records quoting old time Stafford men stating the best dogs they had seen in the fighting pit were 'pigeon blue' and one of the two dogs on which the original standard was based was a blue fawn.

I don't think many have any objections to the colour per se, just to the assumption that if it's blue it's 'pretty' or 'cute' because it's blue, and the idiotic prices charged for frankly bad and unhealthy dogs.

Personally I don't see a show dog in the picture posted. Personally I don't see much cute about the dog in the picture either. Is he a great pet? Well then he's fulfilling the function for which he was bought and that's great.

As for 25% developing dilution alopecia, well add that to the huge number of very badly bred Staffords which develop other skin issues (primarily allergy related) then you have a fairly high number of badly bred BLUE Staffords which will develop either alopecia OR allergy issues OR both.

People who breed for colour are in no way interested in what is best for the breed, regardless of what breed that may be.

[Moselle]

Cute doesn't cut it in the show ring, baby puppies of every breed are cute but that's not reason enough to show them.

He wouldn't get a start at my place, regardless of his colour.

May I ask why? Are you basing your opinion solely on colour? Hope you dont mind my asking.

[WreckitWhippet]

Cute doesn't cut it in the show ring, baby puppies of every breed are cute but that's not reason enough to show them.

He wouldn't get a start at my place, regardless of his colour.

May I ask why? Are you basing your opinion solely on colour? Hope you dont mind my asking.

There are several things that immediately jump out at me and that's before he even stands up, as I said in the previous post " regardless of colour"

[JulesP]

The dog in question is a DOL members much loved pet. Does the phrase 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' ring a bell????? I see pics on here of border collies that make me wince but I would NEVER comment on the open forum about them. Very bad manners IMO.

[conztruct]

The dog in question is a DOL members much loved pet. Does the phrase 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' ring a bell????? I see pics on here of border collies that make me wince but I would NEVER comment on the open forum about them. Very bad manners IMO.

I'm sure that RSG doesn't need me to defend them but earlier in the thread they commented that the DOL members much loved pet was very cute. The comment made about not getting a start was in relation to showing and potentially breeding - nothing to do with what kind of pet the dog is. They certainly didn't degrade the dog - just said that they wouldn't show or breed - didn't get into specifics. It's a personal opinion which everyone is entitled to.

I think he looks just lovely but that has nothing to do with show or breeding quality.

I don't know about you but I'd much rather get the honest feedback on here than get it very publicly in the show ring from a judge. People who show and breed seriously need to be critical and you'll find that they are just as scathing with their own stuff when they have to make the call. It's also the people who tell owners that their pet is so cute and lovely that encourage them to breed which introduces poorer specimens of the breed into the pool.

[Gayle.]

The puppy is 6 months old, the photo is not a very good one taken from a bad angle with goodness only knows what lens at who knows what focal length, I would not have recognized the pup from that photo, so all you Staffy experts must have some kind of divining powers to be able to make your assessment from a photo.

[WreckitWhippet]

The puppy is 6 months old, the photo is not a very good one taken from a bad angle with goodness only knows what lens at who knows what focal length, I would not have recognized the pup from that photo, so all you Staffy experts must have some kind of divining powers to be able to make your assessment from a photo.

ahhh-ha :D

[Gayle.]

The dog in question is a DOL members much loved pet. Does the phrase 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' ring a bell????? I see pics on here of border collies that make me wince but I would NEVER comment on the open forum about them. Very bad manners IMO.

I'm sure that RSG doesn't need me to defend them but earlier in the thread they commented that the DOL members much loved pet was very cute. The comment made about not getting a start was in relation to showing and potentially breeding - nothing to do with what kind of pet the dog is. They certainly didn't degrade the dog - just said that they wouldn't show or breed - didn't get into specifics. It's a personal opinion which everyone is entitled to.

I think he looks just lovely but that has nothing to do with show or breeding quality.

I don't know about you but I'd much rather get the honest feedback on here than get it very publicly in the show ring from a judge. People who show and breed seriously need to be critical and you'll find that they are just as scathing with their own stuff when they have to make the call. It's also the people who tell owners that their pet is so cute and lovely that encourage them to breed which introduces poorer specimens of the breed into the pool.

and the op specifically said in the first post that she had no intention of showing him, and did not at any time ask for an assessment of the dog.

[conztruct]

The dog in question is a DOL members much loved pet. Does the phrase 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' ring a bell????? I see pics on here of border collies that make me wince but I would NEVER comment on the open forum about them. Very bad manners IMO.

I'm sure that RSG doesn't need me to defend them but earlier in the thread they commented that the DOL members much loved pet was very cute. The comment made about not getting a start was in relation to showing and potentially breeding - nothing to do with what kind of pet the dog is. They certainly didn't degrade the dog - just said that they wouldn't show or breed - didn't get into specifics. It's a personal opinion which everyone is entitled to.

I think he looks just lovely but that has nothing to do with show or breeding quality.

I don't know about you but I'd much rather get the honest feedback on here than get it very publicly in the show ring from a judge. People who show and breed seriously need to be critical and you'll find that they are just as scathing with their own stuff when they have to make the call. It's also the people who tell owners that their pet is so cute and lovely that encourage them to breed which introduces poorer specimens of the breed into the pool.

and the op specifically said in the first post that she had no intention of showing him, and did not at any time ask for an assessment of the dog.

Well RSG just said she wouldn't show him - so I don't think that's exactly a critique. If you put a photo of your dog up on the internet especially in a forum where there are people who are experienced in the breed of course they're going to pick things up and have an opinion, and really although the original poster didn't ask about showing that's definately the direction the thread took with the additional questions being asked.

I think we all agree that the pup is very cute but everyone has their idea about show and breeding quality. At the end of the day, people love their pets regardless of their perceived quality and that's all that matters.

[casowner]

I wouldn't know a show quality stafford from a pet, clearly the OP loves her pup regardless and I remember her thread when she mentioned she was getting a blue that it got heated too (as most blue stafford threads do). I do have a question though to the stafford people, why would a pup be sold on mains register if it is not show quality? I know that the ready answer is extra $$$ but would it also be that you do not know the pups full potential until he/she matures. Do breeders of blues advise puppy owners that the slate nose is generally not an acceptable breed trait especially in showing and if so again why are they sold on mains registers?

To the OP your pup is definately cute and I am sure that you adore him. I can see the reason why people are drawn to the colour but I always wonder if the breeders of this colour advises puppy buyers on the problems (health and showing) that they may face in the future. To the OP and this is a genuine question so please do not take offence at all but if you didn't want to show the pup why did you get mains papers rather than just limited?