A Question About Two-tone Australian Kelpies

[piper]

I think you would find they are dual registered, so registered with ANKC and WKC. They certainly look working line and have working lines in their pedigree. They couldnt be shown, they would be advertising them as sport dogs. Not sure of the ins and outs of dual registry or their purpose. All the duals I have seen couldnt be shown.

I believe if they are truely dual registered (as in ANKC main register as well as WKC) then they can be shown/bred from with ANKC. I think a lot now have what the ANKC term "sporting register" - enables working bred dogs to participate in obedience/agility/herding etc without needing to be desexed as associates do. In fact I am fairly sure that I was told that the stud books are no longer open with ANKC so WKC dogs can not be brought across onto main register any more.

This is an Aust Ch Red and tan in SA: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=24169

Ringbarka in SA own a few dual registered dogs. Here is a profile for a ringbarka dog who has a working line dam (I am fairly sure Spinifex is WKC?) http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=39470

[dancinbcs]

All fascinating stuff. I think I'm going to ask Santa for that Kelpie book by Tony Parsons for Christmas. I've been referring to Hoover as a two tone Kelpie but now I realise with the white he's actually a three tone

dancinbcs: that website is GREAT! I have a defective brain though and find it quite hard to process genetic combinations.

I thought that site would do your head in. Seriously, if you go back and read each section several times over a few weeks, it will sink in.

Piper, I am pretty sure I have seen Spinifex Kelpies in the showring over the years. I would guess they are dual registered.

[Lab_Rat]

I've learned a lot, too but I'm not smart enough to understand colours and genetics For instance, this explanation about tan points makes me go cross-eyed:

Jrzipper: thanks so much for posting. That was really fascinating! I have many questions I want to ask but am still formulating them in my head

Try this website to clarify or further confuse colour genetics for you. Take note of the tan point and dominant black sections especially.

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/index.htm

Thanks for that link Dancinbcs! Ill enjoy checking it out!

The problem with googling colour types also gets confusing because most of the info seems to come from US sites where they also tend to use different descriptors - what we call red, they label brown, etc. Always get confused with their BC genetics in particular as our chocolate BC is a red to them and our red BC I think they call a gold. Very confusing.

The mottled looking colouration can be agouti but can also appear in banded hair - my young boy is banded, if I part his hair then only the very tip is coloured, fom the shaft upwards the hair is cream- if I gave him number 2 clippers he would look like a cream kelpie with a red lower back and flanks, pretty much resembling a saddled kelpie.

I think our Wandy would be the same kelpiechick - in that if she was clipped she would be saddled!! dont think Ill be trying it though! Where her hair is growing back under her neck from recent surgery, its ugly - almost curly . I certainly hope it grows more normal as it gets longer!

All fascinating stuff. I think I'm going to ask Santa for that Kelpie book by Tony Parsons for Christmas. I've been referring to Hoover as a two tone Kelpie but now I realise with the white he's actually a three tone

dancinbcs: that website is GREAT! I have a defective brain though and find it quite hard to process genetic combinations.

KTB - I bought myself Tonys latest book - $150 but worth it!! Ive read a little bit, but it got a bit overwhelming, so have put it to one side for now.....Im so glad I got it though. He certainly has amassed a huge amount of knowledge over the years!

[Kelpie Kisses]

Have been reading all the posts, and not wanting to wade into the Working/Bench Kelpie debate, I only want to say that if you are going to show a coloured kelpie with any success, you have to have not only good colouring, but damn good conformation. Coloured kelpies are behind the 8 ball to start with in the show ring, so they have to have all in their favour. My red & tan bitch has been shown to her title, and now is shown sparingly, and under judges that I know will look seriously at a coloured dog. She has just produced a lovely black & tan bitch who will be heading out into the show ring soon. The pups sire is a black & tan dog who is not only titled in the show ring, but has quite a few herding titles under his belt.

It is important that breeders keep the coloured kelpies out in the show ring, or it will get to the stage that all we see are solid colours.

Jillybean (Wingdari Drovers Sweetheart) & her mother Sally (Wingdari Drovers Sally)

[koalathebear]

Have been reading all the posts, and not wanting to wade into the Working/Bench Kelpie debate, I only want to say that if you are going to show a coloured kelpie with any success, you have to have not only good colouring, but damn good conformation. Coloured kelpies are behind the 8 ball to start with in the show ring, so they have to have all in their favour. My red & tan bitch has been shown to her title, and now is shown sparingly, and under judges that I know will look seriously at a coloured dog. She has just produced a lovely black & tan bitch who will be heading out into the show ring soon. The pups sire is a black & tan dog who is not only titled in the show ring, but has quite a few herding titles under his belt.

It is important that breeders keep the coloured kelpies out in the show ring, or it will get to the stage that all we see are solid colours.

Jillybean (Wingdari Drovers Sweetheart) & her mother Sally (Wingdari Drovers Sally)

Jillybean ... I am in love Soooo beautiful.

Does this mean that you are still breeding coloured Kelpies? Because of my posts I actually get quite a lot of messages asking about coloured Kelpies so I'd love to be able to refer people to you if you breed two tone Kelpies. Right now, I've just been able to refer them to working breeders which is fine but there are a whole set of challenges when trying to get a pet from a working line breeder ... I had a lot of bad luck when looking for two tone show Kelpies. All breeders I contact only bred solid coloured dogs.

Sally is beautiful - do you have more photos you could share? I could look at Kelpies all day ...

Good on you for flying the coloured Kelpie flag in the show ring.

Edited November 12, 2010 by koalathebear

[Lab_Rat]

Great stuff Kelpie Kisses!! My dream was to show a B&T Boy, but it probably wont happen - dont get to many shows anymore. I think its a shame the coloured dogs are overlooked in the show ring. I love reds and blacks, but I really love the red and tans and black and tans

Please keep us updated with your kids show career

[koalathebear]

4kelpies: Head is definitely spinning. The colour descriptions are so confusing. Remember this thread? I didn't know it would be so hard to describe Hoover's colour! Red/brown/chocolate/liver/tri-colour etc. I call him my little Golden Gaytime because of his browns, pale golds and white :p

If you look at the dogs from old US "Kelpie" bloodlines, they don't look like Australian Working Kelpies. The dogs you've seen in the photos could well be crossbreds. And as kelpiechick said a lot of terms used there may not be what we would use here. To make things even more confusing, in a lot of writing about early Kelpies; dogs were described by their primary colours only, so a lot of black and tan dogs would only have been described as black.

No wonder! It's sad that Kelpies aren't more well-known overseas ... although I know that Kelpies can even herd reindeer Santa, his reindeer and his Australian Kelpie?

Piper, I am pretty sure I have seen Spinifex Kelpies in the showring over the years. I would guess they are dual registered.

Spinifex was one of the studs I was looking at when I was looking for Hoover. This is so lame but I was a bit wary of the fact that:

1. their website was hosted at Fortune Cities

2. they were advertising a litter of puppies born on 20th August 1998

I know that breeders shouldn't be judged by their website, I mean the breeder that Hoover's from not only doesn't have a website but doesn't really know how to use email well. She had to drive into town for some young guy to help her attach photos Some of the photos we received weren't even of Hoover and his parents but his grandparents!!!

Spinifex website does have a good discussion of colours, though.

Lab_Rat: The book IS very expensive but I am such a dork and just bought a stack of Kelpie merchandise from here. Among other things, I bought a "Got Kelpie?" mug and magnet, a t-shirt with "Australian Kelpie: Owned" etc. My OH is going to hurt himself if he rolls his eyes at me anymore.

Kelpie_Kisses: Although I know very little about showing, I am very relieved that people are still showing two tones/coloured Kelpies... Kelpies come in such a range of colours and unless there are good sound reasons for breeding out certain colours, I love the idea that a conforming Kelpie can still have all of the different colours that I associate with a 'traditional Kelpie'.

[kelpiechick]

I think our Wandy would be the same kelpiechick - in that if she was clipped she would be saddled!! dont think Ill be trying it though! Where her hair is growing back under her neck from recent surgery, its ugly - almost curly . I certainly hope it grows more normal as it gets longer!

KTB - I bought myself Tonys latest book - $150 but worth it!! Ive read a little bit, but it got a bit overwhelming, so have put it to one side for now.....Im so glad I got it though. He certainly has amassed a huge amount of knowledge over the years!

Don't worry, her hair will be back to normal before you know it.

Yep- Spinifex have some dual registered lines. Have only met a couple of kelpies from there but both were really drivey and lovely dogs.

For anyone who plans on buying Tony Parson's book, Fishpond have the best price - picked it up for around $50 less than RRP a few weeks back

[koalathebear]

Unrelated to colour. I was just watching the trials on the WKC website and noticed that Chris Stapleton's dog 'Boss' has floppy ears Show standards say that ears should be pricked but I noticed that the working line standard does, too!

ETA: Then again, apparently (according to wikipedia :

The first "Kelpie" was a black and tan female pup with floppy ears bought by Jack Gleeson about 1872[

I also revisited the Colour page on the Origin of the Kelpie Page on the WKC website and it says the following:

The red colour is well known in the Working Collie family and was not the result of a Dingo mating here. Black is the dominant or strongest colour. The tan markings associated with all colours are believed to be controlled by another inherited factor. Blue is a mutation of the black or a lightening of black due to a dilution factor. Red is the Recessive Colour.

The showing of Kelpies at Bench or Breed Shows has encouraged a section of breeders to concentrate on the production of either all red or all black pups. Selection over a number of years for colour alone, in preference to selection for sheer natural ability, appears to have caused a loss of working ability in some strains.

To meet the overall requirements of the Pastoral Industry, the Working Kelpie Breeder has had to maintain a very high standard of natural working ability in his stock. To achieve this, ability has taken precedence over colour.

Today, most of the best working strains carry a variety of recognised colour factors, including those responsible for tan markings. Because a range of colours is often produced in a litter, the Breeder may not be able to supply a pup of a specified colour at short notice.

Because natural and efficient working ability is the prime concern of us all, may we respectfully suggest that you indicate only a preferred colour, rather than a definite one, when negotiating for a Kelpie pup or dog.

Lucky red and tan is an extremely common colour among the working lines so I wasn't looked upon too frownfully ...

Edited November 13, 2010 by koalathebear

[4Kelpies]

4kelpies: Head is definitely spinning. The colour descriptions are so confusing. Remember this thread? I didn't know it would be so hard to describe Hoover's colour! Red/brown/chocolate/liver/tri-colour etc. I call him my little Golden Gaytime because of his browns, pale golds and white :D

And if that wasn't enough to get heads spinning, some Kelpies' names cause even more confusion. My Caleb is by a dog called Capree Blue (named because he is a redhead.) I have just started trialling Caleb and have had some people ask if he is my "young Blue dog." Caleb is obviously red and tan and this has drawn some strange looks from spectators at trials who wouldn't know about his breeding. Capree Blue sired a dog called Capree Red. A friend of mine bought a young bitch by him and told me that he had just picked up a young "Red Bitch." I went over to his trailer to look at her and couldn't see a red bitch anywhere. Of course she was black and tan.

[sallyandtex]

Thanks for starting this discussion, I am interested too!

i haven't got a pic of my Kelpie, but she looks like your pic (above), except she has one spotty back paw and FLOPPY ears! (From the rescue so not 100% pure :D )

She is 14 months now. The floppy ears are extremely cute, just wondering if they straighten up with age or not??

Edited November 13, 2010 by sallyandtex

[kelpiechick]

Although ears sometimes come up with age I would think that by 14 months what you have is what you have.

Your dog sounds lovely. Nothing wrong with flop ears - some breeders don't like them and have pretty much bred them out but a lot of the top studs still breed the occasional flop eared dog.

The main aim for working lines is producing working ability and associated temperament, not colour or ear type.

[sallyandtex]

Although ears sometimes come up with age I would think that by 14 months what you have is what you have.

Your dog sounds lovely. Nothing wrong with flop ears - some breeders don't like them and have pretty much bred them out but a lot of the top studs still breed the occasional flop eared dog.

The main aim for working lines is producing working ability and associated temperament, not colour or ear type.

Oh thanks! I also posted as a new Q as i saw this topic may have been rested!

[Janba]

The red colour is well known in the Working Collie family and was not the result of a Dingo mating here. Black is the dominant or strongest colour. The tan markings associated with all colours are believed to be controlled by another inherited factor. Blue is a mutation of the black or a lightening of black due to a dilution factor. Red is the Recessive Colour.

:D Lucky red and tan is an extremely common colour among the working lines so I wasn't looked upon too frownfully ...

I have often wondered where the ee red (cream in kelpies) in kelpies and border collies comes from. It is almost unknown (maybe non existent) in the British working dogs our working dogs were bred from but not that uncommon in the Aus working dogs.

[kelpiechick]

I have often wondered where the ee red (cream in kelpies) in kelpies and border collies comes from. It is almost unknown (maybe non existent) in the British working dogs our working dogs were bred from but not that uncommon in the Aus working dogs.

Have just been reading Tony Parson's book where he raises this question. He believes there are 3 possible sources -

1. Bred from fawn complex

2. Throwback to possible earlier infusions of dingo

3. Throwback to UK BC's that occasionally produce what he describes as a lemon (colour not quality :D ) The lemon is apparently self coloured and unrelated to fawn complex, which doesn't appear to exist in BC.

Have never seen this lemon BC - Going off to google.

[koalathebear]

And if that wasn't enough to get heads spinning, some Kelpies' names cause even more confusion. My Caleb is by a dog called Capree Blue (named because he is a redhead.) I have just started trialling Caleb and have had some people ask if he is my "young Blue dog." Caleb is obviously red and tan and this has drawn some strange looks from spectators at trials who wouldn't know about his breeding. Capree Blue sired a dog called Capree Red. A friend of mine bought a young bitch by him and told me that he had just picked up a young "Red Bitch." I went over to his trailer to look at her and couldn't see a red bitch anywhere. Of course she was black and tan.

:D That is hilarious. They certainly aren't trying to make it easy, are they given that there are red Kelpies and there ARE blue Kelpies.

I have to say though, even though people keep telling me that Hoover is brown/chocolate/liver - in the sun, his fur has a definite red sheen to it.

Also, do you know what a "red cloud Kelpie" is precisely? I thought it was a red and tan Kelpie but now I'm wondering if it's restricted to mostly red with a white chest.

[Kelpie Kisses]

There was a famous red kelpie that did well in sheep dog trials many years ago that was called Red Cloud. About the same time, there was a black dog called The Barb. It was from these two dogs that the Red Clouds & Barbs got their names. They arent different types of kelpies, just names given to the different coloured dogs by the farmers.

[Kelpie Kisses]

This is my red dog Bear & his son Floyd....these two are the colour of dog that would be referred to as Red Clouds.

[dancinbcs]

The red colour is well known in the Working Collie family and was not the result of a Dingo mating here. Black is the dominant or strongest colour. The tan markings associated with all colours are believed to be controlled by another inherited factor. Blue is a mutation of the black or a lightening of black due to a dilution factor. Red is the Recessive Colour.

Lucky red and tan is an extremely common colour among the working lines so I wasn't looked upon too frownfully ...

I have often wondered where the ee red (cream in kelpies) in kelpies and border collies comes from. It is almost unknown (maybe non existent) in the British working dogs our working dogs were bred from but not that uncommon in the Aus working dogs.

One of the first registered mentions of yellow on the pedigrees behind our Borders is the outstanding sheepdog trial bitch:

Bantry Girl (F) 01 Jan 1915 VWSDA1915 Yellow/white

From b/w photos she appears to be more likely ee red than sable, but it is hard to tell. She actually looks more like a red cattle dog than either a Kelpie or a Border.

Her sire Bantry/ Banshee was also listed as yellow. He was from a blue Kelpie and a tri Border.

Bantry Girl's dam was also a black tri kelpie/border cross.

So Bantry girl is a from a combination of Kelpies, Borders, Scotch Collies and various other unregistered working dogs that there is no record of. I suspect her colour may have come from a dingo because there really isn't any other explanation for it unless she was actually sable. If she was sable I have no idea where the ee red came from. She is behind every Australian ANKC registered Border and no doubt many working Borders and probably Kelpies as well.

The ee "red" is not seen in Borders that did not originate in Australia so it is definitely an introduced colour and it annoys me that red was introduced into the standard but sable, which is long standing breed colour, wasn't. Both colours were called sable before the term "red" was put into the standard. Brown Borders were also called red (like Kelpies) before someone decided that the colour should be called chocolate.

[koalathebear]

Have never seen this lemon BC - Going off to google.

Any photos of this lemon border collie?