A Question About Two-tone Australian Kelpies

[Niques]

I've never liked kelpies much, but now I realise I must have just seen showline ones, since all the ones I've seen are chocolate brown & very stocky. The skinnier bicolours are lovely!

I have to say, I'm the opposite. I'm not a big Kelpie person (the lovely Hoover excepted, of course :D ) but I am extremely taken with the solid brown fellow in the OP's second photo. And Kelpie'srule's Jasper. I've never really seen the solid coloured dogs but they are seriously beautiful

[kelpiesrule]

I've never liked kelpies much, but now I realise I must have just seen showline ones, since all the ones I've seen are chocolate brown & very stocky. The skinnier bicolours are lovely!

Ah ... Kelpie aren't supposed to be chunky because they're supposed to be able to walk on sheeps' backs. My puppy (here) would probably never be a good sheep dog because he's far too chunky for a working dog, but we love him anyway

Yeah, the photos of working kelpies look much more like they have the structure same structure as our kiwi working farm breeds. The kelpies I've seen in real life look almost like little pointy eared labradors, or little chocolate coloured bears, something. That's probably also party to do with them being a bit fatter due to not being in working condition, I suppose.

I think it also needs to be noted that i have seen quite a few solid coloured working kelpies and they look just like the show kelpie !!! this is why the WK people stopped breeding them ! Have a look back over the old pics of the kelpie... the WK's are getting leggier and skinnier and the solid show kelpies are much like the solids back in the day they parted... (yes some have got heavier, but not all )

I saw a black WK in the back of a ute at a trial and had to double take as I thought he was my black dog Shamus...

Ive also had a guy tell me he had a solid red working kelpie that looked exactly like a girl i was showing.....

[kelpiesrule]

I've never liked kelpies much, but now I realise I must have just seen showline ones, since all the ones I've seen are chocolate brown & very stocky. The skinnier bicolours are lovely!

I have to say, I'm the opposite. I'm not a big Kelpie person (the lovely Hoover excepted, of course :D ) but I am extremely taken with the solid brown fellow in the OP's second photo. And Kelpie'srule's Jasper. I've never really seen the solid coloured dogs but they are seriously beautiful

LOL thanks, the solid boy in the second photo is also of my breeding... that is Merlin (CH Suthenskys Sorcerer) :D

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

Just as well I sent you a link to the thread or you may have missed out, KR :D

[kelpiesrule]

Just as well I sent you a link to the thread or you may have missed out, KR :D

LOL thanks, I probably would have found it eventually :D maybe LOL

[koalathebear]

I was just pondering the fact that part of the 'problem' with Kelpies is that they can be kind of a generic-looking dog ... such a variety of colours, ears, coats - any Mystery Dog gets labelled "kelpie cross" and I've heard that over the years, there are a lot of dingo crosses out there that have been labelled kelpie crosses.

Niques: I forgive you :D Working line Kelpies are not everyone's cup of tea, although my chunky monkey Hoover doesn't seem to realise he's supposed to be sleek and leggy. :D

The two tone must be behind both parents... and in this case it is.. Jasper will also be having another mating soon where red and tans will be possible again. I will definately keep everyone updated on this little red and tan guy :D

Thanks for the info. I will definitely be following his progress with great interest!!

Also, while I have a Kelpie expert in the room - do you know when Kelpie's ears are supposed to go 'up'? Hoover's 4months plus now and for a while it looked as though his left ear was On The Rise but it has sunk down again I'm not fussed because I love his ears whether up or down, but I was just curious.

Edited November 8, 2010 by koalathebear

[Kavik]

Kaos's ears probably went up around 5 months, Zoe's took a bit longer (her ears are bigger and thinner.). At 4 months, I wouldn't worry

[Kavik]

And because I can

[kelpiesrule]

I was just pondering the fact that part of the 'problem' with Kelpies is that they can be kind of a generic-looking dog ... such a variety of colours, ears, coats - any Mystery Dog gets labelled "kelpie cross" and I've heard that over the years, there are a lot of dingo crosses out there that have been labelled kelpie crosses.

Niques: I forgive you Working line Kelpies are not everyone's cup of tea, although my chunky monkey Hoover doesn't seem to realise he's supposed to be sleek and leggy.

The two tone must be behind both parents... and in this case it is.. Jasper will also be having another mating soon where red and tans will be possible again. I will definately keep everyone updated on this little red and tan guy :D

Thanks for the info. I will definitely be following his progress with great interest!!

Also, while I have a Kelpie expert in the room - do you know when Kelpie's ears are supposed to go 'up'? Hoover's 4months plus now and for a while it looked as though his left ear was On The Rise but it has sunk down again I'm not fussed because I love his ears whether up or down, but I was just curious.

My Jasper's ears didnt go up until well into 4 months... but then again, because he was a show dog, he had a little help with some tape. It can depend on the size of the ear too... most of my dog's ears are up by 8 weeks, but those with the big 'uns can take a while...

Seems the working dog's ears are getting bigger and bigger !

[The Ark]

I was just pondering the fact that part of the 'problem' with Kelpies is that they can be kind of a generic-looking dog ... such a variety of colours, ears, coats - any Mystery Dog gets labelled "kelpie cross" and I've heard that over the years, there are a lot of dingo crosses out there that have been labelled kelpie crosses.

Niques: I forgive you :D Working line Kelpies are not everyone's cup of tea, although my chunky monkey Hoover doesn't seem to realise he's supposed to be sleek and leggy.

The two tone must be behind both parents... and in this case it is.. Jasper will also be having another mating soon where red and tans will be possible again. I will definately keep everyone updated on this little red and tan guy

Thanks for the info. I will definitely be following his progress with great interest!!

Also, while I have a Kelpie expert in the room - do you know when Kelpie's ears are supposed to go 'up'? Hoover's 4months plus now and for a while it looked as though his left ear was On The Rise but it has sunk down again I'm not fussed because I love his ears whether up or down, but I was just curious.

My Jasper's ears didnt go up until well into 4 months... but then again, because he was a show dog, he had a little help with some tape. It can depend on the size of the ear too... most of my dog's ears are up by 8 weeks, but those with the big 'uns can take a while...

Seems the working dog's ears are getting bigger and bigger !

All the better to hear you with!

I don't have kelpies but have had a couple in the past, and was interested to read on here that they can have white markings. I have been guilty of assuming that those with white markings must have been crossed with a BC or something similar. Silly me.

Can I just ask for interest's sake - how many show kelpies also work or do herding/agility etc? I have Aussie Shepherds, and I know that a lot of these compete in several disciplines - eg. showing & obedience/agility/herding/endurance. Is it the same with kelpies?

[Kavik]

My Jasper's ears didnt go up until well into 4 months... but then again, because he was a show dog, he had a little help with some tape. It can depend on the size of the ear too... most of my dog's ears are up by 8 weeks, but those with the big 'uns can take a while...

Seems the working dog's ears are getting bigger and bigger !

sidoney's Xia (who is from the same breeder as Kaos) has enormous ears There are certainly Kelpies out there with decent radar dishes on their heads!

[RubyStar]

ETA: the last pup is the mother of the first 3. The first 3 are all from her first litter when she was 3 years old.

Nothing of value to add to this thread, but just wanted to say Tess

[koalathebear]

Can I just ask for interest's sake - how many show kelpies also work or do herding/agility etc? I have Aussie Shepherds, and I know that a lot of these compete in several disciplines - eg. showing & obedience/agility/herding/endurance. Is it the same with kelpies?

I have never actually met a show Kelpie but from understand around DOL that there are DOLers here whose show Kelpies participate in herding, flyball, agility and general obedience. :rolleyes:

[Bullbreedlover]

In stonebridge's case, I'm not meaning to be provocative but if it is not a "nice dog" then on what basis if your "love" of two tones? As mentioned above, I'm assuming that 'nice' means strict conformance to show breed standard, otherwise how can it be possible to love what is not nice

When I look at a Kelpie I envisage a working dog, lithe and active BUT SHOWING NO SIGN OF WEEDINESS.

They should be hard and supple.

Alot if not all of the two tone Kelpies(and alot of whole colours as well) that I have seen in NZ and here are very much lacking in bone and substance that I like to see.

Just my opinion

But I love the colour of the two tones.

I would have one in a heartbeat but it would have to be an exceptional specimen.

I am a big advocate for correct coats on dogs. Whether they are working or being shown. Due allowance being made for moulting time. I am a big advocate on characteristics of breeds. For without the characteristics you really dont have type.

I have owned a beautiful show and working Kelpie. Taking out a Specialty reserve in show(beaten by his dad only)and he was an NZ National challenge winner.He wasnt perfect(nearly LOL) but heck he could work all day with the cows and bulls. sun up to sun down.

That is my ideal Kelpie

[Bullbreedlover]

This is Tye

from the Tinaru and Corindell/Corindale lines

[Bullbreedlover]

Interesting to note that the standard states the colour of the eyes to be brown, harmonising with the colour of the coat yet in the pictures of the two tones, the eye colour is matching the colour of the points. (Blues can have lighter coloured eyes) Which is not the true colour of the coat. Ears are to be moderate size not large and where oh where have the ruffs, brush tails and fox like appearances gone to?

Edited November 9, 2010 by stonebridge

[Bullbreedlover]

I totally do not agree with these statements.

They are not superficial qualities. the standard is what makes the kelpie.

I guess it may be one of those things that I am standing alone with :D

which remain valid today. Over the years the original standard has been subject to amendment and addition by the Canine bodies responsible for the conduct of Dog Shows.

Most of alterations have related to superficial qualities such as coat colour, texture, length etc. etc. The different appearance of Show Kelpies today has been caused, in my opinion, mainly by a lack correct interpretation of structural requirements and a practical knowledge of stock work and pastoral conditions.

The production of a written description of breed type requirements for Working Kelpies stems from the need to place prime importance on the dog's ability to perform efficiently and to remove the emphasis on the unrelated and unsuitable qualities set down in the standard adopted by the Australian National Kennel Control and which is used as a guide by breeders of Show Kelpies.

...

Breed type and conformation should not be confused or lumped together. It is easy to place too much importance on ‘type’; the word type in this case being used to describe general appearance. So you get an owner saying ‘Old so and so are not a good type but worth all the others put together’. ‘Old so and so’ may well be superior because his conformation or skeleton and natural working ability are closer to the ideal. The fact that his ears are half up, or he has a white streak on his face, white feet or that his coat is scraggy and so on, has nothing to do with his conformation.

Such things are on the surface and whilst they may not please the eye they do not affect ability Conformation is the way the frame is proportioned and put together; what covers it will not affect efficiency to any real extent. No dog is truly perfect and no one fault could be exampled as the cause of inefficiency. A bad shoulder is not seen on an otherwise perfect dog; the fact that the shoulder is wrong will affect the other parts to varying degree

[Kavik]

Was just comparing the ANKC Kelpie breed standard with the WKC one. Some interesting differences.

On coat the WKC says:

The outer coat should be moderately short, flat, and straight and weather resisting, with or without a short dense undercoat. On the head, ears, feet and legs the hair should be short. The coat can be slightly longer at the neck, at the rear of the thighs, and on the underside of the tail to form a brush.

ANKC:

The coat is a double coat with a short dense undercoat. The outercoat is close, each hair straight, hard, and lying flat, so that it is rain-resisting. Under the body, to behind the legs, the coat is longer and forms near the thigh a mild form of breeching. On the head (including the inside of the ears), to the front of the legs and feet, the hair is short. Along the neck it is longer and thicker forming a ruff. The tail should be furnished with a good brush. A coat either too long or too short is a fault. As an average, the hairs on the body should be from 2 to 3 cms (approx. 0.75 - 1.25 ins) in length.

[Bullbreedlover]

Was just comparing the ANKC Kelpie breed standard with the WKC one. Some interesting differences.

On coat the WKC says:

The outer coat should be moderately short, flat, and straight and weather resisting, with or without a short dense undercoat. On the head, ears, feet and legs the hair should be short. The coat can be slightly longer at the neck, at the rear of the thighs, and on the underside of the tail to form a brush.

ANKC:

The coat is a double coat with a short dense undercoat. The outercoat is close, each hair straight, hard, and lying flat, so that it is rain-resisting. Under the body, to behind the legs, the coat is longer and forms near the thigh a mild form of breeching. On the head (including the inside of the ears), to the front of the legs and feet, the hair is short. Along the neck it is longer and thicker forming a ruff. The tail should be furnished with a good brush. A coat either too long or too short is a fault. As an average, the hairs on the body should be from 2 to 3 cms (approx. 0.75 - 1.25 ins) in length.

And to me Kavik this is just wrong.

Perhaps I should bow out of this as I maybe just a bit too passionate about standards being there for a reason. The reason that Kelpies must have a ruff and brush tail is to keep them warm when the temperature in the outback rapidly drops at night.

I give up. What the heck do I know anyway.

[Kavik]

My opinion is you go to for the style you like and that suits what you want to do ;)

You want to show and like the stockier, fluffier, solid coloured dogs get one of those. You like the leggier dogs with less coat get one of those.

Same as my opinion on GSDs and believe me the debate there is much fiercer :D

ETA: Kaos has the least coat of my dogs. He does have an undercoat but it is quite short. He does have longer fur on breeches and ruff around neck. His tail is a bit short (someone pointed it out to me, I had no idea!). He is also above standard height but at the top of standard weight. He is an awesome dog for what I wanted (agility) with plenty of drive, shows plenty of herding instinct (people have commented on his ability the few times I have taken him herding). I was not interested in a show dog, but in sports and performance, and temperament is very important to me since Zoe does not have a stable temperament, I wanted to make sure I got a dog with good temperament. I also prefer the look and drive of the working dogs. I like that they are still used for their original work and I value the time these people have put into their dogs to create the great dogs we have today. I have no criticism of the appearance of the dogs that actively work sheep.

I have no problem with people who prefer the show type.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Kavik