A Question About Two-tone Australian Kelpies

[Janba]

Have never seen this lemon BC - Going off to google.

Any photos of this lemon border collie?

Lemon is just a vey pale red like the pale golden retrievers - the same genes control it.

[dancinbcs]

Have never seen this lemon BC - Going off to google.

Any photos of this lemon border collie?

Lemon is just a vey pale red like the pale golden retrievers - the same genes control it.

Not confusing red Kelpies with red Borders.

In Kelpies RED is brown, FAWN is brown dilute and Cream is the "ee gene", any shade of yellow from pale cream to dark chestnut.

In Borders CHOCOLATE is brown, LILAC is brown dilute and RED is the "ee gene", any shade of yellow from pale cream to dark chestnut.

The Cream/Red ee gene masks the coat colour only so underneath the dog will be black, blue, brown or fawn/lilac and the pigment colour is determined by the nose colour. This applies to either breed.

From a little futher research it seems Bantry Girl and her ancestors are the origin of the Kelpie breed as well as part of the foundation of the Border collie in Australia.

Edited November 14, 2010 by dancinbcs

[Janba]

From a little futher research it seems Bantry Girl and her ancestors are the origin of the Kelpie breed as well as part of the foundation of the Border collie in Australia.

I did some searching on her through old newspapers last night and she is listed in trial results as a kelpie/BC cross. You can't tell much from that photo of her.

Its seems she and others like her are the basis for ee red in BCs but it still doesn't answer where it came from in kelpies.

[piper]

From a little futher research it seems Bantry Girl and her ancestors are the origin of the Kelpie breed as well as part of the foundation of the Border collie in Australia.

I did some searching on her through old newspapers last night and she is listed in trial results as a kelpie/BC cross. You can't tell much from that photo of her.

Its seems she and others like her are the basis for ee red in BCs but it still doesn't answer where it came from in kelpies.

I guess whatever was behind her on the kelpie side may have introduced the cream if she listed a BC x Kelpie. Dingo always seems the most logical explanation.

[Kelpie Kisses]

There are seven colours of kelpies that can be registered with the ANKC. They are : Red, Red & Tan, Black, Black & Tan, Chocolate, Blue & Fawn. The colours Cream, Blue & Tan and Chocolated & tan exist, but they cannot be registered with the ANKC. Some dogs are registered as Red & Tans, but are more Chocolate & Tan in colour. Sometimes, the only way you can tell a chocolate puppy from a red puppy is by the colour of their nose.....a chocolate puppy will have a true dark brown chocolate coloured nose, where a red puppy will have a lighter more reddish brown nose. Red dogs can range in colour from a dark mahogany red, to an almost orange red colour

As has been discussed within these posts, working kelpies are bred for their working ability more than their colour or conformation (and rightly so !!). You will find that white markings on working kelpies will come from some sort of cross with another breed ( probably Border) somewhere along the line. White patches on a kelpie in the showring are undesirable (I have been told no more than two fingers width) I have found that almost every kelpie has some sort of white or cream hair on them somewhere....a lot of mine have a few creamy coloured hairs on their bellys or the underside of their tails. I think these cream colourings come from the coloured genes in their lines, as the kelpie breed was developed from a couple of smooth coated, prick eared black & tan collie like dogs.

There are dogs around with bronze or cream coloured hairs that are called shaded dogs.....this also comes from the colored genes within most kelpies. There was a move at some stage to try & get rid of these shaded dogs in the showring, but this would disqualify quite a few dogs from competing.

As a follow on from the Chocolate/red posts, acceptable doberman colours include red & tan, but unlike the kelpies, red can be anything from deep chocolate to a true red colour ( similar to a human red head).

So I think it depends on each breed standard as to the acceptable colours, but in the kelpie standard, there is a definite difference between chocolate & red .

[Staranais]

There are seven colours of kelpies that can be registered with the ANKC. They are : Red, Red & Tan, Black, Black & Tan, Chocolate, Blue & Fawn. The colours Cream, Blue & Tan and Chocolated & tan exist, but they cannot be registered with the ANKC.

I've got to ask... why? Why did they decide these colours weren't OK, who decided it, and what were the reasons behind the decision?

I can see that maybe cream would have skin cancer associated with it, but why not blue & tan, or chocolate & tan?

[Kelpie Kisses]

Dont ask me....probably some self-important person somewhere decided that those colours were unacceptable !!! I dont have a problem with these colours.....the Blue & Tans are particularly striking looking dogs.....

And they couldnt use the excuse that cream is a dilute colour, because Blue is a dilute Black, and Fawn is a dilute chocolate, and they are both acceptable colours !!!!!

[koalathebear]

She is 14 months now. The floppy ears are extremely cute, just wondering if they straighten up with age or not??

Both my dogs still have wonky ears - see below as they do their Yoda impersonations. Elbie's just on 9 months and I think his ears are going to be permanently wonky. Hoover's leftright ear has started to 'rise' so I'm hoping the right ear will follow suit soon.

Dog colours are doing my head in with red/chocolate/cream etc meaning different things depending on whether you're talking about a BC or a Kelpie. I went back and re-examined Hoover and discovered that some of his fur is genuinely red but with some parts of him that seem red, if you brush the fur aside, the fur at the roots is actually white although you can't see those hairs unless you use your fingers. Also, his Kelpie butt isn't white like I thought it was, but actually a very pale cream/tan colour.

Janba - where did you find a photo of Bantry Girl? I couldn't find one and was very curious to see the 'Great Grandmother' of Australian Kelpies and Border Collies.

Out of random curiosity I decided to go and see how the Australian Kelpie and Border Collie were described in Chinese.

Australian Kelpie over here had the name transliterated to: 澳大利亚卡尔比犬 which is pronounced Ào​dà​lì​yà​ Kǎ​'ěr bǐ quǎn. So the Chinese have translated it to be Australian Ka Er Bi Dog / Australian Kelpie Dog. I guess 'ka er bi' was the closest they could get to something that sounds like 'Kelpie'.

For Border Collie on the other hand, they have translated the name rather than transliterating the sound. Border Collie is 边境牧羊犬 which is pronounced biān​jìng​ mù​yáng quǎn which literally means frontier/border raise sheep/shepherd dog.

For the Kelpie, they also say this: 性情： 性格敏感，敏锐，工作效率极高，是很敬业的犬。对主人发出的信号反应迅速，即使是在远处也会积极回应。它们可以日夜工作，白天放牧，晚上看守。

Nature and Temperament: Sensitive disposition, very sharp/acute/keen, extremely high work efficiency, a dog that is 'extremely respectful towards work' . Responds very quickly to its masters signals, even from extremely far distances, it is able to respond very energetically. They are able to work day and night, by day they graze and at night they watch over.

Edited November 14, 2010 by koalathebear

[Janba]

There are seven colours of kelpies that can be registered with the ANKC. They are : Red, Red & Tan, Black, Black & Tan, Chocolate, Blue & Fawn. The colours Cream, Blue & Tan and Chocolated & tan exist, but they cannot be registered with the ANKC. Some dogs are registered as Red & Tans, but are more Chocolate & Tan in colour. Sometimes, the only way you can tell a chocolate puppy from a red puppy is by the colour of their nose.....a chocolate puppy will have a true dark brown chocolate coloured nose, where a red puppy will have a lighter more reddish brown nose. Red dogs can range in colour from a dark mahogany red, to an almost orange red colour

As has been discussed within these posts, working kelpies are bred for their working ability more than their colour or conformation (and rightly so !!). You will find that white markings on working kelpies will come from some sort of cross with another breed ( probably Border) somewhere along the line. White patches on a kelpie in the showring are undesirable (I have been told no more than two fingers width) I have found that almost every kelpie has some sort of white or cream hair on them somewhere....a lot of mine have a few creamy coloured hairs on their bellys or the underside of their tails. I think these cream colourings come from the coloured genes in their lines, as the kelpie breed was developed from a couple of smooth coated, prick eared black & tan collie like dogs.

There are dogs around with bronze or cream coloured hairs that are called shaded dogs.....this also comes from the colored genes within most kelpies. There was a move at some stage to try & get rid of these shaded dogs in the showring, but this would disqualify quite a few dogs from competing.

As a follow on from the Chocolate/red posts, acceptable doberman colours include red & tan, but unlike the kelpies, red can be anything from deep chocolate to a true red colour ( similar to a human red head).

So I think it depends on each breed standard as to the acceptable colours, but in the kelpie standard, there is a definite difference between chocolate & red .

What the ANKC calls red and tan and chocolate are genetically the same colour. I asssume the red is also genetically bb as it is not ee red as they can express tan points. Fawn seems to be the dilute gene acting on the bb genotype giving bb dd. Genetically there appears to be no difference between red and tan just differences in the phenotype giving the different shades.

Whether or not the ANKC standard accepts ee reds as allowable in the kelpie standard they do exist, at least in the working kelpies and the ee had to come from somewhere.

[Janba]

Janba - where did you find a photo of Bantry Girl? I couldn't find one and was very curious to see the 'Great Grandmother' of Australian Kelpies and Border Collies.

http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/i...l-victoria-1919

It is worth doing a search through their archives for historical sheepdog trials etc.

[Diva]

Out of random curiosity I decided to go and see how the Australian Kelpie and Border Collie were described in Chinese.

This reminds of a Google translation of a Russian language site for my fav breed. According to the Google translator a 'cheese head' is a fault. Well yes, I guess it would be

Interesting thread btw.

[Zug Zug]

Lots of talk about working kelpies, as if they are all relatively similar to one another.

Not my experience. I've seen lots of kelpies on farms over the years. Some of them stocky, some of them quite tall and slender, one of them was called a 'dingo kelpie' and he was light in colour and very slender. He was just a kelpie though - no actual dingo in him (well, we were told no actual dingo in him).

All of them seem able to hop on sheep's backs (well, the ones who wanted to could - it didn't seem to relate much to stockiness of the dog but perhaps a bit to willingness and being up for it...?)

From what I've seen working kelpies are different depending on who breeds them. Some of them with thick coats, some with thinner coats.

I'm actually a big fan of the working kelpies being described in this thread. Lighter built, slender, with a sleek coat. It's just an aesthetic thing in my case - I think they look nice and I have a preference for dogs that are not too heavy.

But every farmer has his/her own preference. Usually based on a much-loved dog from days past.

[Janba]

Elbie's just on 9 months and I think his ears are going to be permanently wonky.

Don't give up on his ears just yet. This is a picture of Cole at about 8 months and as an adult both ears are erect.

[koalathebear]

Slightly off-topic but perhaps sort of on-topic given that it's related to Kelpie genetics.

I've been reading about Cerebellar Abiotrophy (ataxia) in Kelpies. It is a loss of Purkinje brain cells. A small number of litters are born each year with this condition but they are not restricted to one line of closely related animals. Studies suggest that the defect is recessive and widespread in the breed, with perhaps as high as a few per cent of dogs as carriers (have one good copy of the gene and one defective and are perfectly healthy but can pass on the defective gene to offspring). It is only when two carriers mate that a proportion of the offspring (one quarter on average) will inherit two defective copies of the gene, one from each parent, and manifest symptoms of the disease.

It occurs in a large number of dog breeds and in Kelpies, the symptoms vary. There are severe ones where the animal cannot walk or even stand, to mild where the pup will have an odd stance or gait. Apparently, one characteristic sign is constant head bobbing while at rest. There's a video over at the Working Kelpie Council here that shows a few dogs afflicted with the condition. There's also a copy of a very interesting article from 1989 about when ataxia was first noticed in the breed.

CA in kelpies occurs in both working Kelpies and bench Kelpies. One article says:

More than one Working Kelpie line is affected. Dr. Don Robertson, a West Australian geneticist who studied the problem wrote in an article on CA in Kelpies for the Australian Veterinary Journal in 1989 “In the Kelpies studied here, the putative gene appears to have been inherited from several dogs which have been prominent in sheep dog trials and have been widely used for breeding. Consequently, an increase in the incidence of cerebellar abiotrophy in working sheepdog strains can be expected“. Unfortunately at present there are very few Working Kelpie pedigrees in which these lines do not appear. This once again exemplifies the need for a DNA test.

Compounding the problem is apparently there's a 'code of silence' i.e. a “shoot, shovel and shut-up attitude”:

No one talks about affected litters. They just disappear in a hole. Then the parents which are obviously carriers are bred to other dogs and if nothing shows up the pups are sold as “normal”. The unsuspecting buyer is than buying a possible carrier. Then the buyer purchases another dog from the same lines in the hopes of doing a line breeding. Then as bad luck would have it that dog is a carrier. These dogs are bred and BANG!!!!! You have a litter of affected pups. The ones showing symptoms are shot and the non affected ones sold and bred. Odds are they are carriers as well so the problem continues and continues and continues. Some of these carriers have been exported out of the country only spreading the problem. The issue with CA as well is that it can appear at six weeks as tremors or at two or three years as seizures. This is a terrible loss to many people of a beloved pet, not to mention the time and money put into training a dog.

Interestingly, the key isn't to PTS the carriers. Apparently the solution is to develop a DNA test so that carriers could be desexed and still used as working dogs and non-carriers of a litter could be bred and the positive traits of those lines passed on.

What I find puzzling is that the Wilton lab has been able to develop tests for at least two different fatal diseases in Border collies. The Working Kelpie Council approached the lab to help them develop a DNA test for CA in Kelpies so that they could detect the carriers and avoid matings that would produce animals with ataxia, and eventually allow them to eliminate the problem from the breed altogether but this was way back in 2007. Reading the literature, the Wilton lab seemed to think that because they had already done so much of the hard work with the Border Collies, it shouldn't take them so long to find a DNA test for Kelpies - one item even said maybe just six months. We're nearing the end of 2010 and from what I can see, there isn't a DNA test for ataxia in Kelpies yet - or is there?

Edited November 14, 2010 by koalathebear

[Janba]

Slightly off-topic but perhaps sort of on-topic given that it's related to Kelpie genetics.

I've been reading about Cerebellar Abiotrophy (ataxia) in Kelpies. It is a loss of Purkinje brain cells. A small number of litters are born each year with this condition but they are not restricted to one line of closely related animals. Studies suggest that the defect is recessive and widespread in the breed, with perhaps as high as a few per cent of dogs as carriers (have one good copy of the gene and one defective and are perfectly healthy but can pass on the defective gene to offspring). It is only when two carriers mate that a proportion of the offspring (one quarter on average) will inherit two defective copies of the gene, one from each parent, and manifest symptoms of the disease.

It occurs in a large number of dog breeds and in Kelpies, the symptoms vary. There are severe ones where the animal cannot walk or even stand, to mild where the pup will have an odd stance or gait. Apparently, one characteristic sign is constant head bobbing while at rest. There's a video over at the Working Kelpie Council here that shows a few dogs afflicted with the condition. There's also a copy of a very interesting article from 1989 about when ataxia was first noticed in the breed.

CA in kelpies occurs in both working Kelpies and bench Kelpies. One article says:

More than one Working Kelpie line is affected. Dr. Don Robertson, a West Australian geneticist who studied the problem wrote in an article on CA in Kelpies for the Australian Veterinary Journal in 1989 “In the Kelpies studied here, the putative gene appears to have been inherited from several dogs which have been prominent in sheep dog trials and have been widely used for breeding. Consequently, an increase in the incidence of cerebellar abiotrophy in working sheepdog strains can be expected“. Unfortunately at present there are very few Working Kelpie pedigrees in which these lines do not appear. This once again exemplifies the need for a DNA test.

Compounding the problem is apparently there's a 'code of silence' i.e. a “shoot, shovel and shut-up attitude”:

No one talks about affected litters. They just disappear in a hole. Then the parents which are obviously carriers are bred to other dogs and if nothing shows up the pups are sold as “normal”. The unsuspecting buyer is than buying a possible carrier. Then the buyer purchases another dog from the same lines in the hopes of doing a line breeding. Then as bad luck would have it that dog is a carrier. These dogs are bred and BANG!!!!! You have a litter of affected pups. The ones showing symptoms are shot and the non affected ones sold and bred. Odds are they are carriers as well so the problem continues and continues and continues. Some of these carriers have been exported out of the country only spreading the problem. The issue with CA as well is that it can appear at six weeks as tremors or at two or three years as seizures. This is a terrible loss to many people of a beloved pet, not to mention the time and money put into training a dog.

Interestingly, the key isn't to PTS the carriers. Apparently the solution is to develop a DNA test so that carriers could be desexed and still used as working dogs and non-carriers of a litter could be bred and the positive traits of those lines passed on.

What I find puzzling is that the Wilton lab has been able to develop tests for at least two different fatal diseases in Border collies. The Working Kelpie Council approached the lab to help them develop a DNA test for CA in Kelpies so that they could detect the carriers and avoid matings that would produce animals with ataxia, and eventually allow them to eliminate the problem from the breed altogether but this was way back in 2007. Reading the literature, the Wilton lab seemed to think that because they had already done so much of the hard work with the Border Collies, it shouldn't take them so long to find a DNA test for Kelpies - one item even said maybe just six months. We're nearing the end of 2010 and from what I can see, there isn't a DNA test for ataxia in Kelpies yet - or is there?

There isn't a test yet as far as I know. You can safely breed carriers to clear but should test the pups you intend to breed from before you breed to determine iff they are clear or carriers. For pets carriers aren't a problem as tey will never develop the disease. If you cull the carriers you stand the risk of limiting the size of the gene pool and then there are chances of other genetic problems becoming prevelent. My tri BC is a result of a CEA clear mating to a CEA carrier and the black and white boy in my avatar I am sure had a litter sister who had TNS (pre DNA testing for it) but he isn't affected and will never be bred from so it doesn't matter if he tested a carrier.

I have a lovely true story somewhere on the computer of the memories of a working kelpie perosn whose dog was affected. I will try to find it.

[Kelpie Kisses]

A couple of links about CA....Jane's story is one that you should read.... It is a very cruel disease

http://www.australiankelpie.com/disorder_ca.htm

http://www.australiankelpie.com/genetic_di..._in_kelpies.htm

[dancinbcs]

As far as I know Prof Alan Wilton is still working to develop a test for CA in Kelpies but I have no idea where they are up to in regards to information and money needed for the research. It takes a huge amount of both as well as complete breedwide co-operation to develop these tests. Lack of reliable information on all known cases is the biggest hurdle.

The aim of all these tests is to allow for carriers to be bred from safely so no affected puppies are produced. Removing carriers from breeding has never been the point of the exercise.

Our CL test for Border Collies took him nearly 15 years to develop but the TNS one only took about 12 months. The funding required for this research was enormous and the BCC of NSW actually managed a govt grant of $93000 at one point as well as the breed clubs raising tens of thousands of dollars over the years. We also had assistance from the Batten's Disease Assoc (CL in humans) to help us along. The association between Batten's Disease and CL was one of the main factors that allowed us to successfully apply for the grant. Most of the funding for the TNS test development came from British Border Collie breeders.

[4Kelpies]

Slightly off-topic but perhaps sort of on-topic given that it's related to Kelpie genetics.

I've been reading about Cerebellar Abiotrophy (ataxia) in Kelpies. It is a loss of Purkinje brain cells. A small number of litters are born each year with this condition but they are not restricted to one line of closely related animals. Studies suggest that the defect is recessive and widespread in the breed, with perhaps as high as a few per cent of dogs as carriers (have one good copy of the gene and one defective and are perfectly healthy but can pass on the defective gene to offspring). It is only when two carriers mate that a proportion of the offspring (one quarter on average) will inherit two defective copies of the gene, one from each parent, and manifest symptoms of the disease.

It occurs in a large number of dog breeds and in Kelpies, the symptoms vary. There are severe ones where the animal cannot walk or even stand, to mild where the pup will have an odd stance or gait. Apparently, one characteristic sign is constant head bobbing while at rest. There's a video over at the Working Kelpie Council here that shows a few dogs afflicted with the condition. There's also a copy of a very interesting article from 1989 about when ataxia was first noticed in the breed.

CA in kelpies occurs in both working Kelpies and bench Kelpies. One article says:

More than one Working Kelpie line is affected. Dr. Don Robertson, a West Australian geneticist who studied the problem wrote in an article on CA in Kelpies for the Australian Veterinary Journal in 1989 “In the Kelpies studied here, the putative gene appears to have been inherited from several dogs which have been prominent in sheep dog trials and have been widely used for breeding. Consequently, an increase in the incidence of cerebellar abiotrophy in working sheepdog strains can be expected“. Unfortunately at present there are very few Working Kelpie pedigrees in which these lines do not appear. This once again exemplifies the need for a DNA test.

Compounding the problem is apparently there's a 'code of silence' i.e. a “shoot, shovel and shut-up attitude”:

No one talks about affected litters. They just disappear in a hole. Then the parents which are obviously carriers are bred to other dogs and if nothing shows up the pups are sold as “normal”. The unsuspecting buyer is than buying a possible carrier. Then the buyer purchases another dog from the same lines in the hopes of doing a line breeding. Then as bad luck would have it that dog is a carrier. These dogs are bred and BANG!!!!! You have a litter of affected pups. The ones showing symptoms are shot and the non affected ones sold and bred. Odds are they are carriers as well so the problem continues and continues and continues. Some of these carriers have been exported out of the country only spreading the problem. The issue with CA as well is that it can appear at six weeks as tremors or at two or three years as seizures. This is a terrible loss to many people of a beloved pet, not to mention the time and money put into training a dog.

Interestingly, the key isn't to PTS the carriers. Apparently the solution is to develop a DNA test so that carriers could be desexed and still used as working dogs and non-carriers of a litter could be bred and the positive traits of those lines passed on.

What I find puzzling is that the Wilton lab has been able to develop tests for at least two different fatal diseases in Border collies. The Working Kelpie Council approached the lab to help them develop a DNA test for CA in Kelpies so that they could detect the carriers and avoid matings that would produce animals with ataxia, and eventually allow them to eliminate the problem from the breed altogether but this was way back in 2007. Reading the literature, the Wilton lab seemed to think that because they had already done so much of the hard work with the Border Collies, it shouldn't take them so long to find a DNA test for Kelpies - one item even said maybe just six months. We're nearing the end of 2010 and from what I can see, there isn't a DNA test for ataxia in Kelpies yet - or is there?

Ataxia (or correctly Cerebellar Abiotrophy) is a horrible condition and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. There is no great conspiracy about it. I've heard breeders speak openly about CA showing up in a litter and which parents produced it. They have put down puppies, desexed the parents and generally culled those bloodlines from their breeding programs. People have spoken freely about which famous dogs from the past have been believed to be carriers, but no one would ever put it in writing that another person's dog is a carrier just in case they were wrong and most people don't want to ruin the reputation of other breeders. The WKC have been criticized by some people (imo very rudely and arrogantly) for not publishing which dogs are carriers, but they are in the same position as the rest of us. They are a breed registry not detectives. Publishing the names of dogs who have produced affected pups would only punish the honest breeders and drive the whole thing underground. It is believed that about 90% of Kelpies have at least one ancestor who carried ataxia. My dogs have several, but in twenty years of breeding my breeder has never seen a Kelpie with ataxia.

Because there is no test for identifying carriers as yet, no one can guarantee that puppies they breed won't have the condition. It generally but not always shows up when the puppies are very young. If you are not a breeder you really don't have much to worry about. While dogs are not machines and with any living creature things can go wrong, Kelpies are one of the healthiest breeds around. Keep reading the WKC bulletins, they regularly have updates on the latest research. Hopefully in time a DNA test will be developed and this awful condition can be eradicated.

[koalathebear]

Thanks all for the info about Cerebellar Abiotrophy. What a horrible, horrible condition. The story of Jane was just so sad. I really hope that the DNA test can be developed soon. It's just awful to think of such beautiful dogs being struck down by such a debilitating condition.