Dumb Agility Question: What Is A "handling System"?

[Staranais]

Probably a dumb question, sorry:

I hear a lot of agility people talking about their handling system.

What is a handling system? Is it just what hand you point the dog with, how you move to the other side of the dog, etc, or is there much more to it?

How do handling systems differ? What is the Greg Derrett handling system? I hear that one talked about a lot.

Please feel free to point me towards a link if no one wants to explain it.

[Kavik]

A handling system is the combination of your body language and hand signals etc that help to direct the dog around the course. Your cues for front crosses (changing sides and direction by crossing in front of the dog), rear crosses (changing sides and direction by crossing behind the dog) as well as for handling other challenges such as serpentines, pull throughs, how you handle lead outs, distance, coming to the handler or turning away, all these things and more are included in your handling system.

There are a couple of main styles of handling systems that have been developed by well known trainers overseas. One of which is the Greg Derrett/Susan Garrett system, the other is often known as the Awesome Paws Handling System developed by Linda Mecklenberg and also used by Ronda Carter.

The main differences from what I can understand is in their lead outs when there is a turn/front fross near the start, some turning signals, how they train rear crosses.

Here is Greg Derrett's page

http://www.gtagility.com/

Here is Susan Garrett's page

http://www.clickerdogs.com/

Linda Mecklenburg's page

http://www.awesomepaws.us/

[kelpiechick]

Just to add to Kavik's very comprehensive answer - mainly because I'm bored sitting around with a splint from wrist to shoulder and my only entertainment is one hand typing, LOL....

When directing your dog around a course you use different cues to let them know where to go, such as your motion, your position relative to obstacles, verbal directions, etc. Most systems actually use very similar cues as a starting point BUT it's the way you combine these cues and the hierarchy you give to them that makes a handling system.

For example, positional cues are a huge part of GD system. This attracts a lot of criticism from APHS handlers as they don't believe it is natural for the dog and yes, it does require a lot of foundation training to get the most out of it. In Aus - or Vic anyway, there are a lot of people who say they are using GD system but are not incorporating correct positional cues, eg: standing out in the middle of nowhere to execute a lead out pivot. This makes it further confusing as just because you are doing 'the moves' associated with a particular system doesn't mean you are 'running it.'

This also doesn't mean that position is not used in APHS - I'm sure it is and am happy to be corrected as I don't use this system, but even though you are striving to get to a particular spot, it's not as important as it is in GD - this is what I mean by the hierarchy thing. This also attracts a lot of criticism from GD handlers as position in APHS can have more than one interpretation for a dog - but APHShandlers would be using their position in combination with other cues.

Motion is the most important cue in APHS system. This doesn't mean that the GD system doesn't use motion as a cue - acceleration and deceleration particularly are a big part of it, but it's not used in the same way or in the same combination with other cues as it is in APHS. This is what gives them a very different 'look'.

I kinda think it's a bit of a right brain/left brain thing as to which one makes the most sense to you. Personally you do what you believe is the best for your dog and if you choose a particular system it shouldn't matter to anyone else. I also believe there are very few people - in ANKC ranks anyway, ADAAmay be different- who truly try to stick to a system and most use a bit of this and that. Sure I do as well but that's through occasional crappy handling rather than choice as I try to use my system of choice.

Thought about it a bit last year when there was some nastiness that appeared to be going around from some people criticising other's systems and I blogged about it here if you are interestd, but it's probably more rambling rather than information about a particular system.

[Staranais]

Thanks very much, you two! I will take a look at your blog, Kelpiechick.

Can I please ask, what would be an example of a positional cue, and a motion cue? I don't quite get what they are.

[Blitz]

An example of a positional cue would be standing on the takeoff side of a jump, and inside the dogs commitment zone, to cue the dog to collect and turn over the jump towards the handler.

A motion cue could be running full out arms pumping cuing the dog to accelerate and take the line of jumps (or other obstacles) in their path.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Blitz

[kelpiechick]

Can I please ask, what would be an example of a positional cue, and a motion cue? I don't quite get what they are.

Positional cue is basically where you are on course in relation to the obstacle you are indicating to your dog. Some examples might be -

1. Imagine the start of a course having 2 jumps in a straight line and jump 3 as a turn to the left. So I need to start with my dog on my right side, then say I want a side change to take jump 3 on my left because of how the course continues. I decide to do a lead out pivot. When I take up my position to release dog I must standing on the far side of jump 3 upright close enough to actually touch that upright - this is positional cue. My use of lateral distance on the lead out tells my dog from the startline that they will be turning over jump 3 before I even pivot. If I lead out past jump 2 and stand close to the line of jumps rather than across near jump 3. this is a cue for my dog that we are continuing on straight ahead.

2. Serpentine - I need to be ahead of my dog so he can see me diagonally through the upright of the middle jump as I give my arm change/turn cue.

Think of the different positions you would need to stand in to cue threadle V serpentine, these are all positional cues.

3. Front cross - I need to be as close as possible to next jump when I execute- if you have access to 3rd GD DVD - Great Dog, Great Handler- winning combination- have a look at the positional cue/front cross exercises near beginning. These explain it way better than I can and were actually a real lightbulb moment for me as to how important good positioning was.

Motion cues are how you are moving around the course and might include things such as use of arm, shoulder, acceleration, deceleration, direction you are going etc.

Hope this makes sense. So much easier to show than put in words.

[Staranais]

Thanks again, you two! That sort of makes sense.

3. Front cross - I need to be as close as possible to next jump when I execute- if you have access to 3rd GD DVD - Great Dog, Great Handler- winning combination- have a look at the positional cue/front cross exercises near beginning. These explain it way better than I can and were actually a real lightbulb moment for me as to how important good positioning was.

LOL, no, I have no agility DVDs, I'm very much a newbie at this. I'm just doing some "backyard" agility with my girl as a way to gradually get her strength & agility back after her op, and a way to exercise her when she's on heat & can't leave the property. So at the moment my technique involves pointing to the weave poles, target plate, or wrap around pole, and saying "that one!" Very unsophisticated.

[kelpiechick]

Thanks again, you two! That sort of makes sense

LOL, no, I have no agility DVDs, I'm very much a newbie at this. I'm just doing some "backyard" agility with my girl as a way to gradually get her strength & agility back after her op, and a way to exercise her when she's on heat & can't leave the property. So at the moment my technique involves pointing to the weave poles, target plate, or wrap around pole, and saying "that one!" :D Very unsophisticated.

Hey we all started out like that at one stage, nothing wrong with that at all, but beware...... it's very addictive.

One minute you just want to mess around with it for fun, next minute you've sold your house, moved to acreage so you can have a set of equipment and more dogs, plan your holidays around what trials you want to enter, own more agility dvd's than any other topic plus have a handling system to boot :D

[Tassie]

Thanks again, you two! That sort of makes sense

LOL, no, I have no agility DVDs, I'm very much a newbie at this. I'm just doing some "backyard" agility with my girl as a way to gradually get her strength & agility back after her op, and a way to exercise her when she's on heat & can't leave the property. So at the moment my technique involves pointing to the weave poles, target plate, or wrap around pole, and saying "that one!" Very unsophisticated.

Hey we all started out like that at one stage, nothing wrong with that at all, but beware...... it's very addictive.

One minute you just want to mess around with it for fun, next minute you've sold your house, moved to acreage so you can have a set of equipment and more dogs, plan your holidays around what trials you want to enter, own more agility dvd's than any other topic plus have a handling system to boot

KC - ain't that the truth. On the other hand, you meet such a nice class of people at the seminars and the Nationals you've mortgaged your house to get to - or in my case, you've given up retirement and gone back to work to pay for ....

[Vickie]

Hey we all started out like that at one stage, nothing wrong with that at all, but beware...... it's very addictive.

One minute you just want to mess around with it for fun, next minute you've sold your house, moved to acreage so you can have a set of equipment and more dogs, plan your holidays around what trials you want to enter, own more agility dvd's than any other topic plus have a handling system to boot

if that ain't the story of my life! Hilarious, but oh so true!

Only thing I'd add...your family & friends think you are clinically insane & refer to your dogs as "those bloody dogs" (with the mandatory eye roll)

Edited November 7, 2010 by Vickie

[Vickie]

My answer the op question, I would say a handling system is nothing more than your own consistent set of rules. Ie, when you do x, your dog is trained to do y.

They may belong entirely to someone else, or you may have bits & pieces from all over the place.

An example of some of my rules, when I turn towards my dogs, they are trained to move towards me. When parallel & I raise my arm up, they are trained to move laterally away, when I bring it it down, they move laterally towards me. Etc

[TerraNik]

Hey we all started out like that at one stage, nothing wrong with that at all, but beware...... it's very addictive.

One minute you just want to mess around with it for fun, next minute you've sold your house, moved to acreage so you can have a set of equipment and more dogs, plan your holidays around what trials you want to enter, own more agility dvd's than any other topic plus have a handling system to boot

if that ain't the story of my life! Hilarious, but oh so true!

Only thing I'd add...your family & friends think you are clinically insane & refer to your dogs as "those bloody dogs" (with the mandatory eye roll)

I get that all the time... And when you get another dog, they exclaim, "ANOTHER one?!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[RubyStar]

Hey we all started out like that at one stage, nothing wrong with that at all, but beware...... it's very addictive.

One minute you just want to mess around with it for fun, next minute you've sold your house, moved to acreage so you can have a set of equipment and more dogs, plan your holidays around what trials you want to enter, own more agility dvd's than any other topic plus have a handling system to boot

I don't own the acreage yet, but you have just listed what I want to do Sell my house, move to an acreage, have permanent training equipment set up and get more dogs

This has been an interesting read. I am only new to agility myself, and don't have a system yet... just the point at that jump and hope they take it system

Edited November 7, 2010 by RubyStar

[Tassie]

...

This has been an interesting read. I am only new to agility myself, and don't have a system yet... just the point at that jump and hope they take it system :rolleyes:

Is that the one that comes with the 'point and pray' contacts RS?

[RubyStar]

...

This has been an interesting read. I am only new to agility myself, and don't have a system yet... just the point at that jump and hope they take it system

Is that the one that comes with the 'point and pray' contacts RS? :D

Kinda With Ruby at least ;) Millie's contacts are better :rolleyes: