So Whats The Answer ?

[Steve]

Puppy farms are first and foremost a business enterprise, and the way to stop them is to stop them producing puppies. And how to do that? Stop people from buying them. As soon as there is no demand for the product, they will stop producing it.

And how to stop people buying puppy farm puppies? Start letting them know where to buy better puppies.

People go to pet stores because they are convenient, friendly, accessible and because they've been told that crossbreds are better/healthier than purebreds. And no one is telling them otherwise.

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand.

[Christina]

Read this whole thread while having my wake up coffees.

No way of getting this right to suit everyone due to varying opinions.

Seems we all know what a puppy farm is when its horrendous, as published on Animal Lib site etc.

The problem is defining what is puppy farming when it is not to that degree.

There are already laws in place that can be used to deal with neglect & abuse.

Why are they not being enforced in a sensible manner ?

More laws are only going to make it so difficult for small hobby breeders who have a genuine interest in their breed & be so intimidating that dog breeding will only be a large scale commercial enterprise in the end.

Microchip & desex of companion dogs & banning sales in pet shops will help but the rest are honestly completely useless.

New laws are going to create more problems. People do not think what they will mean in the long term or the sense, consequences & method of application of them.

We have laws that are not being used in the correct manner.

[spanky]

How does education stop people from breeding in sub-standard conditions?

It's been stated on DOL often enough that there aren't enough pups from ethical registered breeders to supply the market and that the number of pups born is dropping each year. Since most breeders only breed when they want a new pup for themselves, the only way the numbers of pups available will increase is if more people start breeding and would that just shift the problem from dodgy byb to more dodgy registered breeders.

The average person, regardless of how much education / info they are provided with, isn't going to be willing to wait x number of months for a pup and there are a lot of people that want dogs that a ethical breeder probably wouldn't sell to, so there will always be a demand for dogs from pet shops / puppy farms / byb.

The challenge is regulating the breeding conditions of all dogs without negatively impacting registered breeders, because they are the only ones easily identified and therefore more likely to be targeted for inspections.

This is why I think it comes back to councils getting info from pet shops on who they purchase their pups from. If a big establishment they can inspect, if byb they can check and see if the dogs are registered with council and if not they can pay them a visit and check conditions at the same time.

Beyond that I don't know enough about the laws to know the extent of councils inspection powers and whether tweaks to those powers may be the solution over all new laws.

I'm all for education, but I think the primary focus should be on how to own a dog (health care, food, exercise, training etc) as that will have an impact on dumpage rates.

[raz]

The average person, regardless of how much education / info they are provided with, isn't going to be willing to wait x number of months for a pup and there are a lot of people that want dogs that a ethical breeder probably wouldn't sell to, so there will always be a demand for dogs from pet shops / puppy farms / byb.

Yes I agree with this. It's the - I want a puppy and I want it now - attitude that keeps the sausage factories and pet shop sales in business.

[Natsu chan]

It won't stop dogs being bred or looked after in less than good conditions but if people know more they're more likely to make the right decisions up front. So less dogs get dumped and there for the demand for more puppies reduces. The reality is the only way to stop all forms of cruelty deliberate or caused by ignorance is to ban animals full stop. Most people don't want that, I certainly don't. Restricting people the way we are currently certainly hasn't helped has it? So how will more of the same work?

Long term education and reward is far more likely to work. While keeping most (not all some of the laws we have now are so ridiculous that they really do need modifying) of our welfare laws. It would mean less work for the RSPCA too which means they could actually focus on neglect instead of putting their paws into everything. Which is causing half the problems because they haven't got the man power to deal with what they are meant to enforce as it is.

[Steve]

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us?

If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability?

If we are calling for more laws to be introduced are we calling for laws which will treat all people who breed dogs as potentail crimminals and animal abusers or only some - if its only some then how do we identify them and have laws which apply to them alone without those laws being deemed to be inequitable and restricting trade and basic property rights of only one or two groups? Who will decide which groups or group is exempt?

[asal]

It won't stop dogs being bred or looked after in less than good conditions but if people know more they're more likely to make the right decisions up front. So less dogs get dumped and there for the demand for more puppies reduces. The reality is the only way to stop all forms of cruelty deliberate or caused by ignorance is to ban animals full stop. Most people don't want that, I certainly don't. Restricting people the way we are currently certainly hasn't helped has it? So how will more of the same work?

Long term education and reward is far more likely to work. While keeping most (not all some of the laws we have now are so ridiculous that they really do need modifying) of our welfare laws. It would mean less work for the RSPCA too which means they could actually focus on neglect instead of putting their paws into everything. Which is causing half the problems because they haven't got the man power to deal with what they are meant to enforce as it is.

YOU hit the nail all right, education starts at school and thats were the generations need to be taught animal care and respect from kindi.

all the laws in the world cant change human nature, some are the cruelst of all species n thats saying something, considering the thread on bitch fights, just look at the killer in america who has asked never to be released, although i did find his reasoning a little ironic, he took a guilty plea bargin to escape the death penalty then said if the other prisionrs dont kill him he will probably kill himself. if he didnt plea bargin the death penalty had been a cert?

when people were closer to the land and livestock i think that training was much more widespread not millions of kids have never seen milk come from a cow, an egg come from a chook. still get this mental picture of a kid at sydney royal a few years ago, standing appalled watching a cow being milked and his loving mum, said see son thats where milk comes from.

to a horrified squeal "THATS SOOO GROSS...." and he began throwing up

[Steve]

The average person, regardless of how much education / info they are provided with, isn't going to be willing to wait x number of months for a pup and there are a lot of people that want dogs that a ethical breeder probably wouldn't sell to, so there will always be a demand for dogs from pet shops / puppy farms / byb.

Yes I agree with this. It's the - I want a puppy and I want it now - attitude that keeps the sausage factories and pet shop sales in business.

Sometimes- but if I want a puppy what time frame should I be expected to hang around for with only a chance of ever getting a puppy at the end of the tunnel?

[raz]

Sometimes- but if I want a puppy what time frame should I be expected to hang around for with only a chance of ever getting a puppy at the end of the tunnel?

Good question but I dont know what would be reasonable for the average Jo Blow. I've been waiting for a dog from a breeder on here since shortly after I joined and I'm happy to wait but I wouldnt expect the guy on the street to hang out for that long.

[Steve]

Sometimes- but if I want a puppy what time frame should I be expected to hang around for with only a chance of ever getting a puppy at the end of the tunnel?

Good question but I dont know what would be reasonable for the average Jo Blow. I've been waiting for a dog from a breeder on here since shortly after I joined and I'm happy to wait but I wouldnt expect the guy on the street to hang out for that long.

I wouldnt wait that long. Would you have been prepared to wait that long if you didnt already have a dog to live with?

Edited November 7, 2010 by Steve

[raz]

I wouldnt wait that long. Would you have been prepared to wait that long if you didnt already have a dog to live with?

Nup. And in actual fact, we raced into buying our first dog because we just had to have one so I do understand the - gotta have it now - attitude.

[Natsu chan]

I would if it was a bloodline I really wanted, but the majority wouldn't. Personally I think most people would find a month excessive but that's because they are accustomed to instant gratification.

I certainly don't know what the answer is.. Steve how's the melting pot going? Anything that looks promising cropping up.

As for the RSPCA? Anyone who is in charge of policing the law, any law should come under an ombudsman at the very least.

Laws need to be changed so that people can follow the latest vet and scientific protocols without breaking the law, and best practise should not be legislated against as it currently is.

[Steve]

It won't stop dogs being bred or looked after in less than good conditions but if people know more they're more likely to make the right decisions up front. So less dogs get dumped and there for the demand for more puppies reduces. The reality is the only way to stop all forms of cruelty deliberate or caused by ignorance is to ban animals full stop. Most people don't want that, I certainly don't. Restricting people the way we are currently certainly hasn't helped has it? So how will more of the same work?

Long term education and reward is far more likely to work. While keeping most (not all some of the laws we have now are so ridiculous that they really do need modifying) of our welfare laws. It would mean less work for the RSPCA too which means they could actually focus on neglect instead of putting their paws into everything. Which is causing half the problems because they haven't got the man power to deal with what they are meant to enforce as it is.

YOU hit the nail all right, education starts at school and thats were the generations need to be taught animal care and respect from kindi.

all the laws in the world cant change human nature, some are the cruelst of all species n thats saying something, considering the thread on bitch fights, just look at the killer in america who has asked never to be released, although i did find his reasoning a little ironic, he took a guilty plea bargin to escape the death penalty then said if the other prisionrs dont kill him he will probably kill himself. if he didnt plea bargin the death penalty had been a cert?

when people were closer to the land and livestock i think that training was much more widespread not millions of kids have never seen milk come from a cow, an egg come from a chook. still get this mental picture of a kid at sydney royal a few years ago, standing appalled watching a cow being milked and his loving mum, said see son thats where milk comes from.

to a horrified squeal "THATS SOOO GROSS...." and he began throwing up

I once took a beagle pup 8 weeks old which we intended to keep from a litter to school in my arms to pick up one of my kids - about 6 years ago now. Any way the kids saw the beagle pup and it turned into a tourist attraction as they were leaving school.

The kids were talking among themselves and one said - its a girl. I said no its a boy and they argued it was a girl because it had nipples. So I very delicately expleined the difference and told them of how the boys private bits were higher up than the girls.

Next day I took two - one girl and one boy to show them the difference. One mother went off her head and accused me of peddling pornography in the play ground.

To this day I still cant believe it ! So sarcasticlly I said "Oh Im sorry in future if I bring a puppy any where near the school Ill put a nappy on it so the kids cant see the sex organs - and she said "THANK YOU :p .If I could be trusted to do that when ever I came near the school and her child and not to discuss such disgracful things again around children she would not report me to the principal and the police How I made it back the car without literally falling on the ground and laughing Ill never know

We've moved since then but I wonder how her 10 year old who couldnt tell the difference between the boys and girl dogs turned out now he can find porno on the net and his hormones are pumping.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Steve

[poodlefan]

I think the problem needs to be broken down a little.

What can we do now?

1.We can educate puppy buyers that they should put more effort into adding a dog to their family than they currently do to adding a car. The myth that the only differences between dogs are size, shape and hair length are pervasive. Many dog owners have no idea about temperament, activity level etc.

Most folk do some research on cars, test drive, don't buy from dodgy sources and check for any interests in the car if buying privately. If we could educate them just to do the equivalent for a dog, we'd be on our way. The more they know, the better they can understand what sort of dog might suit them and what sort of care it might need.

The irony is that many family dogs will spend way longer in the family than any car ever does. If people really grasped that their choice of dog and how they raise it made a difference to the safety of their kids I think we might get somewhere.

I have a slogan in my head.

It's never "just a dog" - finding the right dog for your family.

2. We can gather information about where dumped dogs are bought, who buys them and why they are dumped. If we gather information on these issues we can move to step 2. A lot of us have ancedotes, gut feelings and limited statistics. If we want long term solutions to the issue we need to arm ourselves with facts.

What can we achieve in the longer term?

A balance of laws that protects buyers (as consumers), breeders (as suppliers) and the dogs themselves by specifying minimum (and potentially ideal) standards of practice for both breeding and pet dogs. I support owner licensing because you can at least ensure that a potential owner must past a knowledge based test before purchase. I also support mandatory cooling off periods on purchases. Impulse buys are never good, no matter where the pup is sourced.

Edited November 7, 2010 by poodlefan

[raz]

How I made it back the car without literally falling on the ground and laughing Ill never know

Hilarious but disturbing at the same time. God talk about having a hang up.

[Steve]

I think the problem needs to be broken down a little.

What can we do now?

1.We can educate puppy buyers that they should put more effort into adding a dog to their family than they currently do to adding a car. The myth that the only differences between dogs are size, shape and hair length are pervasive. Many dog owners have no idea about temperament, activity level etc.

Most folk do some research on cars, test drive, don't buy from dodgy sources and check for any interests in the car if buying privately. If we could educate them just to do the equivalent for a dog, we'd be on our way. The more they know, the better they can understand what sort of dog might suit them and what sort of care it might need.

I have a slogan in my head.

It's never "just a dog" - finding the right dog for your family.

2. We can gather information about where dumped dogs are bought, who buys them and why they are dumped. If we gather information on these issues we can move to step 2. A lot of us have ancedotes, gut feelings and limited statistics. If we want long term solutions to the issue we need to arm ourselves with facts.

What can we achieve in the longer term?

A balance of laws that protects buyers (as consumers), breeders (as suppliers) and the dogs themselves by specifying minimum (and potentially ideal) standards of practice for both breeding and pet dogs. I support owner licensing because you can at least ensure that a potential owner must past a knowledge based test before purchase. I also support mandatory cooling off periods on purchases. Impulse buys are never good, no matter where the pup is sourced.

Great stuff.

So if we are to use education - who do we educate and where do we educate them and with what do we educate them on who will be the educators ?

How do we best go about collecting data, specifically what data will we collect ?

I do not support licencing but I do support cooling off periods - but how long should this cooling off period last and under what conditions?

[raz]

What's the cooling off period for petshops?

[poodlefan]

What's the cooling off period for petshops?

There isn't one.

[Christina]

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us?

If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability?

I meant that the current laws should be policed.

If they are adequate to cover that dogs should be kept in conditions which are good & have their health & welfare as priority.

If they are not adequate they should be. This does not mean dogs can't be kept in your home, must have certain size & style of whelping pen, seperate buildings, be walked half hour daily etc & other blanket, one style rules.

Its supposed to mean the dogs are clean, well fed, get attention & not confined to cramped cages & have medical attention when needed.

This should apply to all dog owners, breeders or not. Its not that complex to treat an animal right, although I wonder at some.

There should be external accountability. The RSPCA are supposed to be anti cruelty not anti breeder.

[raz]

What's the cooling off period for petshops?

There isn't one.

Oh really? I thought there was. That's pretty dreadful.