So Whats The Answer ?

[Natsu chan]

:rolleyes: Thanks Steve, it's nice to know you're out there doing your best. Sometimes it feels like your talking to yourself for all the good it does. Hugh Wirths gloating all over the media doesn't help either.

[Steve]

:rolleyes: Thanks Steve, it's nice to know you're out there doing your best. Sometimes it feels like your talking to yourself for all the good it does. Hugh Wirths gloating all over the media doesn't help either.

Might just have to throw a little spanner in the works then.

[betsy]

Some really interesting comments here, obviously lots of people thinking and contributing.

Thinking about this recently, I do think that education and marketing are what needs to happen. It however does take time for a cultural/societal change!

There is certainly a demand from the public for pets, be it dog, cat, whatever. The general public needs to be re-informed/informed of the ethical way of choosing such a pet - ie from an ethical breeder or rescue organisation.

It needs to be made very socially unacceptable to source a puppy from a pet-shop or puppy farm. How exactly to achieve this I'm not sure, but doesn't necessarily involve legal aspects. Some of the suggestions of documentaries, school education, media campaigns are great.

Great brainstorming!

[~Anne~]

:rolleyes: Thanks Steve, it's nice to know you're out there doing your best. Sometimes it feels like your talking to yourself for all the good it does. Hugh Wirths gloating all over the media doesn't help either.

Might just have to throw a little spanner in the works then.

And you're the best person to throw that spanner in my view.

[Steve]

:rolleyes: Thanks Steve, it's nice to know you're out there doing your best. Sometimes it feels like your talking to yourself for all the good it does. Hugh Wirths gloating all over the media doesn't help either.

Might just have to throw a little spanner in the works then.

And you're the best person to throw that spanner in my view.

Im not so sure about that but I cant see anyone else stepping up to the plate

[Nic.B]

Sorry in advance if I have not read every single detail, have had too many coffees reading through it all though!

I don’t have any experience re breeding, though have learnt a vast amount volunteering at my local shelter over a number of years now.

Obviously all agree that an enormous number of healthy, rehomeable family pets are needlessly pts in pounds and shelters across the country and that it must be addressed.

For me personally It is incredibly disillusioning to witness great family pets being killed. Reasons for surrender are more than often pathetic and there is a poor reunite rate (At HP it is around 25% overall from three council areas)

I am consistently amazed at the lack of care and concern some people have for their pets. It is frustrating to me for people to say they cannot afford to keep a dog, yet pensioners and even those living out of cars will do anything for their dog, at their own expense. They will feed their dog before themselves every time, and offer good quality of life.

We have people in the urgent rescue section who eat baked beans for two weeks to donate toward a dog in a shelter that they have never met.

I honestly believe that people who are responsible for the demise of a dog have not formed an intimate bond/relationship with the dog. There are a number of reasons for this. If you have an intimate relationship/bond with your dog you will always go over and above for their best interests and to meet their needs.

At HP when people are looking to adopt a dog or cat we find they need a great amount of support and it is always sincerely appreciated. In an effort to reduce risk factors a lot of time is spent with people whenever possible to match them well with a potential new family pet, to ensure they are aware of their breed traits, specific needs etc.

Training is a major issue, this not only promoted, senior volunteers really inspire people with a training session with the dog in front of them. We show the new family the potential of the dogl, we share with them what motivates the dog, we give them training techniques that will stimulate the dog both mentally and physically also how to correct common behavior which may have presented such as jumping up and pulling on a lead. It just seems wrong not to offer basic, fundamental info and advice as you may be setting the dog up for failure (not to mention the family)

I am opposed to pet shops and dog farming, and BYB’ing can’t stand it. Dogs are companion animals, they rely upon, resonate with their people and do well with an intimate relationship with their owners.

The opportunity to impulse buy is rife, god even I feel like taking one of those puppies home at times. Many move into a heavily suburban area where only a tiny courtyard is the only stimulation offered. They are so cute when they are little, then they grow up, get relegated out to the yard/courtyard, exhibit normal puppy/teenage behavior are offered no training and bingo, off to the pound they go or worse, live a life of passive neglect.

Many dogs at HP are around this classic age/stage of development.

We recently had a chipped to pet shop small/tiny breed female less than twelve months old heavily pregnant. Thank god she went to rescue as she was enormous and had 6 huge Staffy x puppies (caesarian) while under duty of care. The dog surrendered just prior to her was 4 months old, also chipped to a pet shop, typical designer breed. The whole family surrendered him on a Sunday morning and happily waved goodbye! Great example for the kids!!

I was approached by a young woman who worked in a pet shop, she had some terrible tales to tell from her experiences there. It was a low economic area, puppies were bought for $35 each or less and sold with massive markups. The BYB’s were mostly on pensions and BYB’ing was an extra source of income for them without being caught out. The puppies were in poor condition, wormy , they cut every corner possible.

Many Pet shops are not a member of the PIAA and happily fly under the radar. I agree chipping details are a great place to start though it is difficult to enforce atm.

It is illegal to sell an unchipped puppy in NSW though if you or I were a Ranger, we drove past a BYB’d litter of pups for sale on the side of the road, we went in to check the puppies were chipped and they were not. The owner would simply say they will be chipped prior to sale.

The only way to catch them is to rely on someone buying an unchipped puppy, then taking the puppy to a pound/body and to make a complaint against them.

While they are tiny and sweet that is the last thing that would cross their mind! Even if caught out the BYB’r would probably get a slap on the wrist.

We see many unwanted litters at HP, we have had a huge number of young puppies in recently. Desexing is so important for family pets. At times people will actually tell you they intend to have a litter with a dog. Sometimes they simply have no clue and after good education quickly change their mind, others ( if hell bent on the idea) you have no hope of educating. Desexing would stop them though.

In my experience I do believe that far more people are open to education on issues such as desexing, training etc than not.

I agree education is the key, though it will need to be a massive campaign and reach/cover a wide range of people, ages, backgrounds.

I am sorry if I have gone off topic

ETA Open to education.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Nic.B

[raz]

I am sorry if I have gone off topic

That's not off topic I dont think - Steve is looking at it across the whole board. I thought your post was really interesting. Something you said really twigged with me - that cute little fluffy grows up eventually. How can that impulse buy be nipped in the bud? Age old question really.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i think education is key to changing behaviour, won't change them all and won't change everyone but it will change some

[Steve]

Sometimes we get people who want to join as as breeder members. We take a long look and think they probably need a bit more education before we would like them to be seen to be our members so we offer them our Introduction to Canine Breeding Course which we put out at cost price. It isnt really like other courses designed to push animal husbandry practices and though it does cover that the emphasis is more on ethics and risk analysis etc . Our stats show we talk about half of them out of it. I personally think anyone who gets through the first unit has been challenged on ethics and consequences of what may appear to be minor decisions.

For me they cant say any longer that they didnt know because once they have been exposed to it and they have had to examine the issues regardless of whether they go on to muck it up or walk away they have had to think it through and thats the difference. You can only do better when you know better.

Its also important to say we have also chased off some people who thought they might like to be foster carers and we have upset some rescue groups by educating foster course students on things which need to be addressed and the foster carer aware of before they sign up with one group or another.

I dont think we have chased any one off owning a dog but we have shown them how to bond with their dogs, get to know them as companions and family members to be too interdependent on them to throw out.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Steve

[Nic.B]

I am sorry if I have gone off topic

That's not off topic I dont think - Steve is looking at it across the whole board. I thought your post was really interesting. Something you said really twigged with me - that cute little fluffy grows up eventually. How can that impulse buy be nipped in the bud? Age old question really.

From a shelter perspective (which is what I am familiar with ) and from speaking with the community;

Its all about education and offering it 10 fold, we don’t want to see dogs fall back at all. More than that, we need to work really hard to inspire with the hands on stuff, Education, training, temp, matching families etc. All crucial.

I can’t believe people pay so much money for a puppy from these sources, with nothing. It simply blows my mind!

As a potential new dog owner the owner must understand the needs of a puppy, what can they offer the puppy? are they able to meet the puppy's needs? also training and natural puppy behavior is to be expected not to mention the life expectancy of a dog and the commitment needed for the life of the dog.

As someone involved in the welfare of animals, pretty well versed (I would think) I still at times feel as though I would love to shove a puppy under my jumper, I can relate to the impulse draw card in many respects even though I know much better, am well educated and am completely opposed to Impulse buying, BYB'ing, petshops and of course any farming of animals.

There are times of year that are horrific and the number of dogs dumped goes through the roof during school holidays in particular. It is not a coincidence.

I would love to get some stats on that, perhaps I can start with that this Christmas?

[Steve]

So far we have covered a lot of ground in this thread and it feels to me like real progress.

Pushing for enforcement of current laws

Making the agencies charged with policing these laws more transparent and accountable

Education for all cross sections of the community

Collection of data and statistics.

Seem to be the major things that most of us agree on as priorities and which are the most realistically achievable in addressing the problem of people who breed puppies in sub standard conditions and we just might knock over a couple of other big deals which impact on us as dog owners, breeders and rescue along the way.

Out of each of these come sub issues and the need for vision,action and lengthy chats and plans set in place about appropriate ways of approaching them BUT we can no longer do nothing. We can no longer expect that those we have relied on to represent our dog's best interests will do that. Its time.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Steve

[bullyfan]

So far we have covered a lot of ground in this thread and it feels to me like real progress.

Pushing for enforcement of current laws

Making the agencies charged with policing these laws more transparent and accountable

Education for all cross sections of the community

Collection of data and statistics.

Seem to be the major things that most of us agree on as priorities and which are the most realistically achievable in addressing the problem of people who breed puppies in sub standard conditions and we just might knock over a couple of other big deals which impact on us as dog owners, breeders and rescue along the way.

Out of each of these come sub issues and the need for vision,action and lengthy chats and plans set in place about appropriate ways of approaching them BUT we can no longer do nothing. We can no longer expect that those we have relied on to represent our dog's best interests will do that. Its time.

Excellent read! Good on you Steve for getting this ball rolling.

With education, is there a way to promote Canine councils in each state as the first port of call for looking for a puppy? I think the canine associations need to push there presence (on tv, in the paper, in vets and in pet shops that dont sell live animals) as a place to find out about all breeds... Unless you are a member, show or know people that do.. there really aren't many ways to "see" them. But when you walk past a pet shop in your local town, and pups are in the window... hey presto..

[Steve]

So far we have covered a lot of ground in this thread and it feels to me like real progress.

Pushing for enforcement of current laws

Making the agencies charged with policing these laws more transparent and accountable

Education for all cross sections of the community

Collection of data and statistics.

Seem to be the major things that most of us agree on as priorities and which are the most realistically achievable in addressing the problem of people who breed puppies in sub standard conditions and we just might knock over a couple of other big deals which impact on us as dog owners, breeders and rescue along the way.

Out of each of these come sub issues and the need for vision,action and lengthy chats and plans set in place about appropriate ways of approaching them BUT we can no longer do nothing. We can no longer expect that those we have relied on to represent our dog's best interests will do that. Its time.

Excellent read! Good on you Steve for getting this ball rolling.

With education, is there a way to promote Canine councils in each state as the first port of call for looking for a puppy? I think the canine associations need to push there presence (on tv, in the paper, in vets and in pet shops that dont sell live animals) as a place to find out about all breeds... Unless you are a member, show or know people that do.. there really aren't many ways to "see" them. But when you walk past a pet shop in your local town, and pups are in the window... hey presto..

Ill have to think on how far Id like to go on that one. Im not feeling that warm and fuzzy about doing too much to make em look good. Though the greater good stuff is hanging around in there.

Considering SACA refused to allow us to have a stall at their pet expo because they said we were a competitor and the WACA has recently been noted in the minutes of a meeting of having accused the 'Master Dog Breeders and Associates as the newest threat to purebred dogs' it seems to me that there has been little reward for us for the fact that for around 7 years we have done nothing but work our butts off [out of our own pocket] to promote them. I think they need to push their presence too but how much we are going to help them is open to debate.

[AmandaJ]

Considering SACA refused to allow us to have a stall at their pet expo because they said we were a competitor and the

I'll be belting down Wolfgangs door in the new year too......he's not going to say no twice in a row!

[bullyfan]

Fair enough Steve. I think they (canine associations) need to spend their money on promoting, to a wider audience, pure breeds rather than (pure breed) breeders spending their money promoting them (canine associations).

Sorry for the double dutch, getting a bit tired!

[Nic.B]

I agree It's Time for change.

I have been contemplating doing a study on the where dogs surrendered to HP have been originally sourced from, mostly for my own interest.

Of course I will need to ask permission first, I have a few thoughts, though what sort of questions do you feel would be important to include?

It will have to be simple and not take long to fill out or people may not bother.

[Steve]

I agree It's Time for change.

I have been contemplating doing a study on the where dogs surrendered to HP have been originally sourced from, mostly for my own interest.

Of course I will need to ask permission first, I have a few thoughts, though what sort of questions do you feel would be important to include?

It will have to be simple and not take long to fill out or people may not bother.

AWL on the Gold Coast have collected info re where the dogs surrendered etc come from. Ill see if I can dig it out - from memory they had 16 % from pet shops.

[Steve]

I agree It's Time for change.

I have been contemplating doing a study on the where dogs surrendered to HP have been originally sourced from, mostly for my own interest.

Of course I will need to ask permission first, I have a few thoughts, though what sort of questions do you feel would be important to include?

It will have to be simple and not take long to fill out or people may not bother.

AWL on the Gold Coast have collected info re where the dogs surrendered etc come from. Ill see if I can dig it out - from memory they had 18 % from pet shops.

awl stats for surrendered dogs.

Notice that the highest category of surrenders is from people who took AWL dogs and dont keep them. There is also a fair amount of talk about people who take their dogs dumping them with the RSPCA too rather than giving them back to AWL. Couldnt say how often that happens but based on the high figures of those that return Id expect that at least some are being handed over to the RSPCA shelters.

I also notice that the most surrenders is because the people surrendering them have too many animals or their accommodation and it makes you ask if they do this because they want to or because they have no choice due to council regs - and of course what percentage does this for which reason etc. 29% of dogs being homed bouncing back is a bit much I think - if you add in the likelihood that some will be dumped somewhere else thats around double the pet shop dogs which are surrendered.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

17% of cats bounce back too.

There are many questions that this raises for me especially considering the practice of rescuing whelping bitches and cats - hand raising kittens and pups etc and selling their puppies and kittens via rescue.

Those stats are much higher for AWL dogs and cats bouncing than pet shop dogs and cats being surendered so you have to ask given that so many of the dogs they place in homes themselves whether or not they are actually contributing to the problem. Especially when they are importing rescue dogs into their own shelter from other areas.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Steve

[Nic.B]

Yes, Thank you!

I will have a read through - I am not sure, though I think the biggest problem at HP is BYB's and unwanted litters being badly rehomed. They are so cute when they are little.

There is a huge difference seen in socio economic areas who impound at HP. Over half the shelter is taken up with Penrith dogs, not many are reclaimed, Baulkham Hills has a low number of arrivals and have a good reunite rate, Hawkesbury is very much a mix of the two.