So Whats The Answer ?

[spanky]

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us?

If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability?

If we are calling for more laws to be introduced are we calling for laws which will treat all people who breed dogs as potentail crimminals and animal abusers or only some - if its only some then how do we identify them and have laws which apply to them alone without those laws being deemed to be inequitable and restricting trade and basic property rights of only one or two groups? Who will decide which groups or group is exempt?

I want to see the council to take more responsibility. We pay rego fees each year so use some of that to put the current laws into effect. I don't think the RSPCA should have the market on animal stuff, the council needs to step up to the plate and be actively involved in these issues.

Yep so do I but I do think there is a difference between policing laws which are about compliance for some mickey mouse stuff - like where my dog sleeps and how many I can have in a house yard etc and the real stuff that impacts like not feeding them or throwing them against the fence etc too. I dont think its up to a council or a police officer or the RSPCA to tell me when I have to vaccinate my dog and make it a crimminal offence if I dont as is the case in NSW and Victoria.

i dont think mandatory laws should dictate that my dogs should be kept on hard impervious floors when they have evolved to run on dirt and dig and sunbake either.

When you get laws and the RSPCA policing them which turns an old lady into a crimminal because she took a dog to a dog show which was debarked by a licenced and very competent vet because she didnt ask some stranger first its time to say we have truly gone way too far.

I guess that is where it gets hard, different state laws mean that it becomes harder for regi breeders in some areas.

The average person, regardless of how much education / info they are provided with, isn't going to be willing to wait x number of months for a pup and there are a lot of people that want dogs that a ethical breeder probably wouldn't sell to, so there will always be a demand for dogs from pet shops / puppy farms / byb.

Yes I agree with this. It's the - I want a puppy and I want it now - attitude that keeps the sausage factories and pet shop sales in business.

Buyer behaviour and community expectations and behaviour have been successfully altered for centuries with education and marketing campaigns.

Think of major gov campaigns that you know of like the Grim Reaper. It actually educated and changed social behaviour. There are a million examples of how this has worked but that is the main one that comes to mind.

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

[Steve]

the stats are under 10% we bered around 60,000 puppies and around well over 600,00 is the estimate all up.

But I still dont think many get it. Just as you think only ethical registered breeders should be breeding puppies some groups think we are the anti christ.

What we do is different and I can give you 100 reasons as to why I think what we do is better and how its better for people to buy a registerd pup but thats just not cutting it any more and it's time we saw that when we go nuts and expect we can call for new laws and that we will be exempt. We are not and we will not be treated any differently and lots of peopel dont think the way do it is the best way to do it.

[Shazzapug]

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us?

If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability?

If we are calling for more laws to be introduced are we calling for laws which will treat all people who breed dogs as potentail crimminals and animal abusers or only some - if its only some then how do we identify them and have laws which apply to them alone without those laws being deemed to be inequitable and restricting trade and basic property rights of only one or two groups? Who will decide which groups or group is exempt?

I want to see the council to take more responsibility. We pay rego fees each year so use some of that to put the current laws into effect. I don't think the RSPCA should have the market on animal stuff, the council needs to step up to the plate and be actively involved in these issues.

Yep so do I but I do think there is a difference between policing laws which are about compliance for some mickey mouse stuff - like where my dog sleeps and how many I can have in a house yard etc and the real stuff that impacts like not feeding them or throwing them against the fence etc too. I dont think its up to a council or a police officer or the RSPCA to tell me when I have to vaccinate my dog and make it a crimminal offence if I dont as is the case in NSW and Victoria.

i dont think mandatory laws should dictate that my dogs should be kept on hard impervious floors when they have evolved to run on dirt and dig and sunbake either.

When you get laws and the RSPCA policing them which turns an old lady into a crimminal because she took a dog to a dog show which was debarked by a licenced and very competent vet because she didnt ask some stranger first its time to say we have truly gone way too far.

I guess that is where it gets hard, different state laws mean that it becomes harder for regi breeders in some areas.

The average person, regardless of how much education / info they are provided with, isn't going to be willing to wait x number of months for a pup and there are a lot of people that want dogs that a ethical breeder probably wouldn't sell to, so there will always be a demand for dogs from pet shops / puppy farms / byb.

Yes I agree with this. It's the - I want a puppy and I want it now - attitude that keeps the sausage factories and pet shop sales in business.

Buyer behaviour and community expectations and behaviour have been successfully altered for centuries with education and marketing campaigns.

Think of major gov campaigns that you know of like the Grim Reaper. It actually educated and changed social behaviour. There are a million examples of how this has worked but that is the main one that comes to mind.

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

[spanky]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

Firstly I never called you narrow minded.

Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered.

[shortstep]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

About 63000 ANKC registered pups last year, final numbers have not been published yet, (that I can find, it might be a bit lower than that as it keeps dropping each year).

No one knows how many pups are born each year.

25,000 greyhounds.

WCK could give some numbers but would only be a few thousand.

ABC reports millions yes with an 's' are born each yeaer (there are less than 3 millions dogs total in Australia), later they say 'And every year, about 250,000 of them are euthanised. That means 25 per cent of the pets we buy each year are being put down.' So that would mean 1 million with no 's' pets, but cats make up the larger number of euthanized pets, ( I think, someone can look that up if they like). I think they has got their numbers twisted up again. Story is called Crule Trade if you want to look it up.

Some other estimates say around 500,000 are born each year and I think this sounds a more reasonable number when looking at the numbers taken into shelters each year. Around 400,000 dogs were abandoned to animal shelters last year. It is estimated there are around 2.5 million total dogs in Australia.

At any rate, ANKC dogs make up a very small number of the dogs born and ANKC breeders would be a very small number of the people breeding dogs. So somwhere around 1/10th or less meaning 1 ANKC pup in every 10 or more dogs born. I am sure all the animal rights folks know this and I am also sure that is why the Vic rally did not end up stopping puppy farms or pet shop sales at all, but will go after ANKC breeders. I am sure that is why NSW says a puppy farm has been defind in such a way that even a first time ANKC breeder with a litter of 2 pups can be proscuted as a 'puppy farmer' is they are found to have delivered substandard care.

Seems like very little is done to hunt out all the other breeders of the 9 or more pups out of 10 born.

[Shazzapug]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

Firstly I never called you narrow minded.

Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered.

Cool ☻....... this is the dilema of the puppy buyer, in my breed anyway.

[asal]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

Firstly I never called you narrow minded.

Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered.

why on earth would they be that stupid?

become registered and your traceable and the wolf pack of ethical's will be running rspca's lines hot putting in complaintsto get rid of em, at the very least embarrass the daylights out of em.

been happening for years to those who have thought they were ethical discover they had annoyed someone in the club and discover the uniform at the door, so its sure going to happen to anyone else silly enough to join and be noticed surely?

I know my family never bought a purebred dog ever, all came from petshops and all loved to bits all their lives. none of the cattledogs my dad had ever had a pedigree come with it, nor the german shepherds or my brothers border collie,

it was only after i had my first job and wanted a registered pup that once came home with cc papers. n that was some 40 or more years ago now. AND im the only one stupid enough to have pedigree. n i come from a VERY BIG family. everyone else gets em from where? pet shops or signs on the edge of the road or word of mouth and not a pedigee in sight

interesting that figure isnt it. 600,000 dogs a year n only 60,000 of em came from a registered breeder yet whos the bunnies being shot at? n whos the pretty stupid bunnies asking for more laws to shut down the breeders of the other 540,000 and getting eliminated instead? ethical they may think they are but smart enough to realise the law classes all breeders as unethical. n whos the only tracable ones? regd breeders. who show? registered breeders, who is facing 42 charges for showing a debarked doggie? only a registered breeder can end up in that net.

n when will they finally figure the hunt includes if not totaly targets who?

not too bright are they the ethicals after all

Edited November 8, 2010 by asal

[moosmum]

Laws are targeting EVERYONE who keeps dogs.

Lets avoid any groupings here.We all have a stake in seeing this done right,we can all benefit,and no one needs to be disadvantaged while education is a 1st priority.

This is about keeping dogs as a valued part of society,that we can all enjoy, while doing all we can to reduce negative impact on others and improving the welfare of dogs.

Sorry,had lots more to add,but on generator power here and time to shut down.

There is a letter I havve been trying to track down written at the time of the 2nd world war in London that would be invaluable!

[Shazzapug]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

Firstly I never called you narrow minded.

Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered.

why on earth would they be that stupid?

become registered and your traceable and the wolf pack of ethical's will be running rspca's lines hot putting in complaintsto get rid of em, at the very least embarrass the daylights out of em.

been happening for years to those who have thought they were ethical discover they had annoyed someone in the club and discover the uniform at the door, so its sure going to happen to anyone else silly enough to join and be noticed surely?

I know my family never bought a purebred dog ever, all came from petshops and all loved to bits all their lives. none of the cattledogs my dad had ever had a pedigree come with it, nor the german shepherds or my brothers border collie,

it was only after i had my first job and wanted a registered pup that once came home with cc papers. n that was some 40 or more years ago now. AND im the only one stupid enough to have pedigree. n i come from a VERY BIG family. everyone else gets em from where? pet shops or signs on the edge of the road or word of mouth and not a pedigee in sight

interesting that figure isnt it. 600,000 dogs a year n only 60,000 of em came from a registered breeder yet whos the bunnies being shot at? n whos the pretty stupid bunnies asking for more laws to shut down the breeders of the other 540,000 and getting eliminated instead? ethical they may think they are but smart enough to realise the law classes all breeders as unethical. n whos the only tracable ones? regd breeders. who show? registered breeders, who is facing 42 charges for showing a debarked doggie? only a registered breeder can end up in that net.

n when will they finally figure the hunt includes if not totaly targets who?

not too bright are they the ethicals after all

We always had purebred labs growing up, I dont know where they came from but it wasnt a pet shop. Some of us were bought up a little different I guess. There isnt a choice to be unnethical or immoral, a breeder has to have integrity and be prepared to stand behind the dogs they breed.

[Steve]

I will speak about a couple of breeds that Im very familiar with but I wont name them because its not worth the grief.

One breed was pretty popular - no big deal genetic issues, and you would be hard pressed to walk down a suburban street 20 years ago and not see one in someone's yard. Lots of kids grew up with them and the demand for them is still very high.

About the time when limited register was introduced things started to change for the breed. The breeders decided that their bloodlines were special and needed to be protected,they became fearful that this breed may be used and abused by the dreaded cross bred breeder as Poodles had been and it became harder and harder for anyone to buy a main register pup especially if they had the audacity to want to breed purebred dogs without doing as they were told by the breeder and of course showing them. It wasnt O.K. any more to purchase a great female which the breeder deemed suitable for breeding and then later use a champion stud dog which someone else had shown to be sure you were breeding puppies close to the standard with back up from the breeder to ensure you knew you had to have them tested and checked for various things before you were allowed to use the champion stud dog because any that were suitable for breeding were either kept for the breeder or put out on limited register - so even if the owner did find a little boy and breed with it and became a low life back yard breeder the puppies couldnt be registered. There are very few people who breed this breed who are not registered. Very few peopel who breed more than a litter every two years or so because if they did the other breeders would think that disgusting. In fact I would say Ive only ever seen one person who bred them and put them out without papers from registered dogs.

Fast forward 20 years - all those kids who grew up with them now want one of their own for their families to enjoy - not to breed with - not to show just to live with.

5 years ago it was getting pretty hard to find a registered pup to go out as a pet dog of this breed - now - its almost impossible. 5 years ago the only way a breeder could aquire a registered dog for breeding from this breed no matter how long they had been breeding was from homes they had placed main register pups from.

This has made the gene pool shrink to a tiny number of dogs in comparison to how many could be used for breeding registered dogs 20 years ago. One particular genetic issue has shown up which is a real bitch and its going to take a hell of a lot of skill to ensure it gets gone and stays gone from the breed. Rather than the breeders, placing them on limited register, desexing contracts and doing everything they could to ensure that only those who they knew would do exactly as they were doing or who would do as they were told could get their dogs it would have been much better for the breed if they had of given those who wanted to have a go at breeding main registered good dogs and encouraged them to investigate and learn new things as well as benefit from their experience and have a go. I get that under neath all of the glory seeking and power games there was a genuine desire to protect the breed and the numbers of breeders have dropped for other reasons too but it hasnt worked and it has instead meant that people who really wanted this breed to bring into their families seek similar sized dogs which are more accessable and driven the demand for puppy farm dogs up. No point what so ever in the breeders doing a single thing to promote this breed because there are no registered puppies to place.

The other breed 20 years ago had few breeders and the gene pool was pretty small but most breeders put all of the pups out on main register. If you wanted to breed them it was very easy to find a good breeder who was more than happy to sell you a main register dog and help you out when mating time came to source a great stud dog. No big deal genetic issues in the breed at this time. The same emphasis wasnt on whether or not someone who wanted to breed would show them because they were in the main a working dog. People went off and lived with them, learned about them and bred them sometimes. If someone said they might want to breed with it later on the breeder made sure they were selling them a pup which wouldnt do any damage to the breed and it would have a fair shot at doing only good things for future generations. If someone bred a litter now and then and didnt show them it was no big deal and they were given access to great stud dogs. there are more breeders breeding this breed who will never get near a show ring but because they have purchased their dogs from breeders who do and who made sure they were selling good dogs for breeding and because great stud dogs are made easily available to the bitches which have been selected for breeding - the breed as a whole is in great shape.

There are no big deal genetic issues and people can usually get a dog of this breed without a great long wait. The breeders dont have to do much work in promoting the breed because the owners do.

There are always consequences and if a breeder is truly interested in the breed and the dogs into the future and the whole thing isnt about egos and power and control its time we stood back from this a bit and looked at the whole issue holitically taking every bit of it into account and stop thinking we are special and superior and the only ones who may have the best interests of dogs at heart.

[Steve]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

Firstly I never called you narrow minded.

Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered.

Cool ☻....... this is the dilema of the puppy buyer, in my breed anyway.

Yes but part of the reason some of them are dodgey is because we gave them little choice if they wanted to breed. We didnt sell them good breeding dogs when they asked and we didnt help them or work with them and we didnt give them accesss to good stud dogs. If they hung on and wanted to breed anyway they had little choice but to breed with less than perfect dogs bred by people who didnt really have much knowledge to impart to them and because we treat them like crimminals and the enemy they dont mix with us and learn what is needed to help the breed. We have to accept that we have played a role in this too.

[~Anne~]

If we call for more policing of the current laws - do we mean more policing of all the current laws or are we only calling for more policing of the current laws which we agree with which dont affect us?

If we are calling for all laws which are current to be policed are we prepared to have a group policing them which is anti breeder and which has discretionary powers and police powers without external accountability?

If we are calling for more laws to be introduced are we calling for laws which will treat all people who breed dogs as potentail crimminals and animal abusers or only some - if its only some then how do we identify them and have laws which apply to them alone without those laws being deemed to be inequitable and restricting trade and basic property rights of only one or two groups? Who will decide which groups or group is exempt?

I want to see the council to take more responsibility. We pay rego fees each year so use some of that to put the current laws into effect. I don't think the RSPCA should have the market on animal stuff, the council needs to step up to the plate and be actively involved in these issues.

Yep so do I but I do think there is a difference between policing laws which are about compliance for some mickey mouse stuff - like where my dog sleeps and how many I can have in a house yard etc and the real stuff that impacts like not feeding them or throwing them against the fence etc too. I dont think its up to a council or a police officer or the RSPCA to tell me when I have to vaccinate my dog and make it a crimminal offence if I dont as is the case in NSW and Victoria.

i dont think mandatory laws should dictate that my dogs should be kept on hard impervious floors when they have evolved to run on dirt and dig and sunbake either.

When you get laws and the RSPCA policing them which turns an old lady into a crimminal because she took a dog to a dog show which was debarked by a licenced and very competent vet because she didnt ask some stranger first its time to say we have truly gone way too far.

I guess that is where it gets hard, different state laws mean that it becomes harder for regi breeders in some areas.

The average person, regardless of how much education / info they are provided with, isn't going to be willing to wait x number of months for a pup and there are a lot of people that want dogs that a ethical breeder probably wouldn't sell to, so there will always be a demand for dogs from pet shops / puppy farms / byb.

Yes I agree with this. It's the - I want a puppy and I want it now - attitude that keeps the sausage factories and pet shop sales in business.

Buyer behaviour and community expectations and behaviour have been successfully altered for centuries with education and marketing campaigns.

Think of major gov campaigns that you know of like the Grim Reaper. It actually educated and changed social behaviour. There are a million examples of how this has worked but that is the main one that comes to mind.

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

Sorry, I think we have crossed thoughts here.

I was not referring to educating people and encouraging them to buy puppies from registered breeders. I was talking about changing society's idea of responsibility when it comes to owning dogs in this day and age. My comment was off the back of my previous comments were we talked about the increasing numbers of dogs being in pounds which is what produced the comments about buyer behaviour of puppies.

However, taking your point into consideration, why are pedigree puppy registrations in decline? I feel there are numerous answers to this and some of the decline can be directly attributed to breeders, some to legislation and some to the demand of the oodle. These things are not irreversable either.

[moosmum]

O.K, Back for a short time.

Re education,

I think targeting adult who are in a position to buy now ,unfortunately will have limmited effect.

Most are "too busy" or disinterested to attend education days and we would be largely preaching to the converted.

A well made documentary style program could start the ball rolling though?

ie; A breif history of the role of domesticated animals in society, where we stood at the beginning of this century and a forward to whats happening today regarding the views and attitudes,and conditions of animal ownership.How greater knolwledge and understanding would benefit society as a whole.

Maybe also some article written to papers along the same lines,urging people to consider their choices and responsibilities before legistaltion takes their choices away completely.

I badly want to trace this letter written so long ago,it was brilliantly done and responsible for almost ending the euthanasia of dogs happening at that time to "assist the war effort".

I belive kids enjoy being able to spout facts to their parents and are much more amenable to seeing animals as "beings" rather than aquisitions.

I could picture kids saying "I want a dog"

Mum says",O.K well' go to the pet shop" and kids saying,'NO mum,we learned in school that you have to make sure the dog we choose is right for our family or it might end up in the pound.And we have to fence the yard better"

If kids at school could go to a shelter and see badly neglected dogs,learn their likely fate and their stories,I think they may come away with a much greater empathy for domestic animals.Especialy if they could see,as a contrast,well loved,very well trained dogs strutting their stuff and showing the potential when its done right.

They would learn that a Lassie or Inspector Rex doesn't just happen,but is with in reach.

Those breeding in sub standard conditions would hopefully start being shunned out of 'Popular "opinion.

I agree breeders details should remain on microchips,so that should a dog end up impounded the breeder will be informed at the least.

Edited November 9, 2010 by moosmum

[~Anne~]

Re education,

I think targeting adult who are in a position to buy now ,unfortunately will have limmited effect.

Most are "too busy" or disinterested to attend education days and we would be largely preaching to the converted.

Educating the public does not entail 'creating a student and teacher' situation usually. Public education and awareness programs are, for example, like the ads we are currently hearing about 'looking up' for powerlines or the 'Dial before you Dig' campaign.

Awareness campaigns also include topics such as gambling, water control and weed control.

A variety of methods are used in changing and altering behaviour and educating. Some are through more community awareness campagins and others through social marketing campaigns. Examples might include a campaign through media with advertorials, editorials, interest stories and advertising, identifying areas or groups of concern and working with these specific areas or groups, and more educational areas such as information seminars and examples of best practice.

Social behaviour, awareness and social marketing campaigns can be highly successful.

[fifi]

I think the combined Irish Wolfhound clubs / breeders in the UK have addressed a bit of this quite well.

One of the problems mentioned in this thread is accessing pups / breeders, unless you are in the know, most of Joe Public wouldn't know where to begin looking for registered breeders or shows to come along & look at.

This website is a good template for breed clubs - http://irishwolfhoundpuppies.co.uk/default.aspx

And the users & breeders are encouraged to visit the site often to keep it ahead those e-pup type buyer sites.

Some really interesting comments too on owner behaviour, I agree, it's not enough just to help people source their pups, but to encourage lifelong ownership and quality care.

I think good vets & vet nurses play a big part in this, one's that are breed aware, rescue aware/supportive, understand development and training issues, and who nurture good ownership.

fifi

Edited November 9, 2010 by fifi

[raz]

I think that's a great post by moosmum. I have a little nephew who lectures people about buying nestle products because 'an orangutan will die if you eat a kitkat'. He is totally rampant about palm oil and such a great walking advertisement. If you can get to the kids re education, I think you're half way there - they're great little ambassadors.

disclaimer - no I didnt put that thought into his head. I'm not sure who did but I can tell you, his parents are too terrified to buy anything containing palm oil because their son will just fly into them He's only 7.

Edited November 9, 2010 by raz

[spanky]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

Firstly I never called you narrow minded.

Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered.

Cool ☻....... this is the dilema of the puppy buyer, in my breed anyway.

Yes but part of the reason some of them are dodgey is because we gave them little choice if they wanted to breed. We didnt sell them good breeding dogs when they asked and we didnt help them or work with them and we didnt give them accesss to good stud dogs. If they hung on and wanted to breed anyway they had little choice but to breed with less than perfect dogs bred by people who didnt really have much knowledge to impart to them and because we treat them like crimminals and the enemy they dont mix with us and learn what is needed to help the breed. We have to accept that we have played a role in this too.

I agree completely with that Steve.

I'd love to breed, but I simply don't have time to make a massive commitment to showing and it seems that if you don't show you're not serious about your breed. It's sad because I love the genetics side of things and have chosen to study it at uni and I think I'd be able to make a positive contribution to my breed of choice. Instead I'll focus on cattle and rare breed pigs once we're on property (hopefully 6mnths).

[Steve]

Yes you can change these things, but lets be honest about the chances of this happen when relating it to dogs. How many purebred puppies were born through ethical registered breeders last year and how many dogs were actually bought? I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to bet that registered pups were a minority number.

There simply aren't enough registered breeders to supply the market. All that will happen is dodgy people will become registered and start breeding poor quality purebreds and then you have to try and get people to figure out who is an ethical breeder and who isn't, because as has been stated on here before it is very hard for the canine orgs to boot registered breeders out due to trade laws.

I understand how education campaigns reduce things that require behaviour change in society, but you are suggesting changing a society behaviour where the industry will be unable to meet the demand and so the behaviour change won't stick for the majority.

I might be narrow minded but I am not naive enough to think that this has not and is not already happening...good grief!!

Firstly I never called you narrow minded.

Secondly at what point did I say I don't already think this is happening... that was my reason for stating ethical registered breeders in my posts. I agree with you that there are already dodgy breeders, I'm just saying that the people that are dodgy and not registered will just become registered.

Cool ☻....... this is the dilema of the puppy buyer, in my breed anyway.

Yes but part of the reason some of them are dodgey is because we gave them little choice if they wanted to breed. We didnt sell them good breeding dogs when they asked and we didnt help them or work with them and we didnt give them accesss to good stud dogs. If they hung on and wanted to breed anyway they had little choice but to breed with less than perfect dogs bred by people who didnt really have much knowledge to impart to them and because we treat them like crimminals and the enemy they dont mix with us and learn what is needed to help the breed. We have to accept that we have played a role in this too.

I agree completely with that Steve.

I'd love to breed, but I simply don't have time to make a massive commitment to showing and it seems that if you don't show you're not serious about your breed. It's sad because I love the genetics side of things and have chosen to study it at uni and I think I'd be able to make a positive contribution to my breed of choice. Instead I'll focus on cattle and rare breed pigs once we're on property (hopefully 6mnths).

What a shame you are thinking that way you would be an asset to your breed whether you show or not - I have never stepped foot into a show ring and I never will. No one could be more serious than I am about my breed. I've still bred my fair share of champions though and every time someone takes one I bred for a walk its the biggest and best show in the land :rolleyes: they win every time

Edited November 9, 2010 by Steve

[Natsu chan]

Lot's of good ideas here but I really feel like we might be running out of time. The letter I had from our labour candidate here in Melbourne said that he supported the puppy farm bill and that his party would ensure it was passed too. I'm just wondering if in Victoria at least there's anything we can do to a least slow the rot because as you say it's gone to far but it seems as if we're on an express train now.

[Steve]

Lot's of good ideas here but I really feel like we might be running out of time. The letter I had from our labour candidate here in Melbourne said that he supported the puppy farm bill and that his party would ensure it was passed too. I'm just wondering if in Victoria at least there's anything we can do to a least slow the rot because as you say it's gone to far but it seems as if we're on an express train now.

We are going to give it a try - almost there. The first of what we are planning is almost ready.