So Whats The Answer ?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

once the current laws are policed properly and we have a system that works properly then and only then should we be thinking of adding more laws.

until then we need to educate and yes from kindy, in primary schools and in high schools

look at how the kids now know how to recycle and that its a good thing.

20 years ago that idea would have been laughed at. so lets start looking at how we were educated and borrow from the best of them

[poodlefan]

Great stuff.

So if we are to use education - who do we educate and where do we educate them and with what do we educate them on who will be the educators ?

Ah, now for the work.

Who do we educate? I'd be specifically targetting parents and the wider general public. All the channels currently used to talk about pets are potential avenues for these messages. Child safety networks AND animal welfare networks are potential avenues for education.

We have media like Better Homes and Gardens, Dogslife and others that might be approached. "NO puppy farms" doesn't offer an alternative source. People need to know about those sources and how to sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of ethics. Essentially I think we all need to talk to come up with a few key messages and flog them hard.

How do we best go about collecting data, specifically what data will we collect ?

At a practical level, approaches to local pounds requesting that they give those surrendering dogs a tick and flick questionaire and ask if they're willing to be interviewed about their dog would be good. A few folk in a few regions who can objectively gather and interview (non judgementally) could be the start. People would have to be able to park their own agendas and work with the plan.

Questions to ask:

* breed/crossbreed of dog (if known)

* age when purchased

* source of purchase

* any training undertaken - puppy pre-school, dog club, private trainer

* family composition - genders, ages of family members

* a few questions around reason for surrender -behavioural, economic etc

* If willing to give name and willing to be interviewed. My guess is anonymity might encourage more frank responses from some.

Steve, I think rather than scattering efforts nationally, selecting one or two regions for pilot programs of education and information gathering and a third 'no change'monitoring site for just information gathering might be the basis of a 3-5 year study. The issue then comes down to funding but with a limited scope, we might get a few of the bigger players to chip in. What's needed is a project plan I suppose.

So I'd say choose three areas with pounds likely to be amenable to assisting with collecting surveys and that have a few interested folk to do legwork. The ACT seems a likely one to me.

Edited November 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

PF i agree. we need to find messages that win over hearts and minds and we need to use lots of channels to get the message through

eta the NO puppy mills message has a lot of problems so IMO we need to talk about how the dpgs are kept the conditions and leave the puppy mills are bad messages out of it because we cant agree on a definition of a puppy farm

Edited November 8, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[poodlefan]

PF i agree. we need to find messages that win over hearts and minds and we need to use lots of channels to get the message through

Those messages need to be simple and linked to good sources of information. Places like the Petcare Advisory Network offer a lot of ideas on how to do this.

If once a year, the CC's organised open days with breed stalls, dog sports demos and lots and lots of handouts, it would be a start. However, to be quite frank, a lot of breeders lack the necessary communication skills to sell the message to folk who haven't got a clue.

As I said, folk would need to park their own agendas (and egos) and work within a plan. Perhaps the first place to start might be to educate WITHIN the dog community about what the issues are and what needs to be done.

I'd also like to see the CCs clean house. We all know there are registered puppy farmers :D: They also need to do better than turn their heads away when puppy buyers get ripped off - I get a sense at least locally that people realise we need to do better. We need to work on a community perception about what "better" is. Perhaps, as a start its as simple as an "INFORMATION" sign and a few folk decdicated to the task and willing to talk to members of the public at shows. A handout that covers what most of us consider as the basics of puppy buying would have a lot of value.

Edited November 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

PF i agree. we need to find messages that win over hearts and minds and we need to use lots of channels to get the message through

Those messages need to be simple and linked to good sources of information. Places like the Petcare Advisory Network offer a lot of ideas on how to do this.

If once a year, the CC's organised open days with breed stalls, dog sports demos and lots and lots of handouts, it would be a start. However, to be quite frank, a lot of breeders lack the necessary communication skills to sell the message to folk who haven't got a clue.

As I said, folk would need to park their own agendas (and egos) and work within a plan. Perhaps the first place to start might be to educate WITHIN the dog community about what the issues are and what needs to be done.

I'd also like to see the CCs clean house. We all know there are registered puppy farmers :D: They also need to do better than turn their heads away when puppy buyers get ripped off - I get a sense at least locally that people realise we need to do better. We need to work on a community perception about what "better" is. Perhaps, as a start its as simple as an "INFORMATION" sign and a few folk decdicated to the task and willing to talk to members of the public at shows. A handout that covers what most of us consider as the basics of puppy buying would have a lot of value.

again i agree 100%. we all need to be working to the one agenda. we can have differences but on some things we need to be united.

maybe we need to run "train the trainer" types of sessions to teach breeders how to communicate the messages. the sessions could be free for any breeder who wants to learn.

all policing regulations, legislation etc needs to be fully used before we ask for more because as you have pointed out, we are not utilising the powers we already have to clean up/manage this sector.

[poodlefan]

I support what David Suzuki said about "think globally, act locally".

There are a hell of a lot of dog owners on this forum. If we all had access to a few brochures we could download and hand out to folk we knew were in the market for a dog that would be a start.

If we all had good answers (and not long ones) about why you'd only buy a dog from a responsible breeder or rescue (and what that meant) that would be a start. There's always going to be folk who want only a purebred pup or only a rescue dog. We need to acknowledge it, ditch our own prejudice and help people get the right dog for them. Advocating your own breed because YOU like it, advocating only pound rescue for novice family owners with very young kids.. that's not about who's asking but about our own beliefs.

The PR nightmares of snobbish breeders and dog owners, that you only need papers to show etc can be overcome. Health testing is a message most people get.

If rescuers acknowledge that stopping dogs being dumped is as important as saving them, that's start too. If people want a purebred puppy, then telling them they're killing a pound dog is hardly going to help.

Edited November 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I support what David Suzuki said about "think globally, act locally".

There are a hell of a lot of dog owners on this forum. If we all had access to a few brochures we could download and hand out to folk we knew were in the market for a dog that would be a start.

If we all had good answers (and not long ones) about why you'd only buy a dog from a responsible breeder or rescue (and what that meant) that would be a start. There's always going to be folk who want only a purebred pup or only a rescue dog. We need to acknowledge it, ditch our own prejudice and help people get the right dog for them. Advocating your own breed because YOU like it, advocating only pound rescue for novice family owners with very young kids.. that's not about who's asking but about our own beliefs.

The PR nightmares of snobbish breeders and dog owners, that you only need papers to show etc can be overcome. Health testing is a message most people get.

If rescuers acknowledge that stopping dogs being dumped is as important as saving them, that's start too. If people want a purebred puppy, then telling them they're killing a pound dog is hardly going to help.

the use of that statement by people makes me very annoyed because it is a puerile argument and just plain wrong and sets pedigree and cross bred against one another....we are on the same side

Edited November 8, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[poodlefan]

I support what David Suzuki said about "think globally, act locally".

There are a hell of a lot of dog owners on this forum. If we all had access to a few brochures we could download and hand out to folk we knew were in the market for a dog that would be a start.

If we all had good answers (and not long ones) about why you'd only buy a dog from a responsible breeder or rescue (and what that meant) that would be a start. There's always going to be folk who want only a purebred pup or only a rescue dog. We need to acknowledge it, ditch our own prejudice and help people get the right dog for them. Advocating your own breed because YOU like it, advocating only pound rescue for novice family owners with very young kids.. that's not about who's asking but about our own beliefs.

The PR nightmares of snobbish breeders and dog owners, that you only need papers to show etc can be overcome. Health testing is a message most people get.

If rescuers acknowledge that stopping dogs being dumped is as important as saving them, that's start too. If people want a purebred puppy, then telling them they're killing a pound dog is hardly going to help.

that makes me very annoyed because it is a puerile argument and just plain wrong and sets pedigree and cross bred against one another....we are on the same side

Its no more puerile than the argument that any dog other than a registered purebred must be an inferior animal. Both sides need to work together for the benefit of dogs and families.

Edited November 8, 2010 by poodlefan

[Natsu chan]

If we want to fix the problems we are seeing then we all need to take a deep breath and acknowledge that we all love dogs and we all want the best for them. Our views of what is best may be different, but that's okay so long as we work together. The root of the problem is what we need to work on as that is the only way to improve the situation, for all dogs and for everyone even people who don't like dogs.

The reality is that all domesticated animals are part of our heritage and we should all be working to protect them and their place in our world. Where would we be without them really?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I support what David Suzuki said about "think globally, act locally".

There are a hell of a lot of dog owners on this forum. If we all had access to a few brochures we could download and hand out to folk we knew were in the market for a dog that would be a start.

If we all had good answers (and not long ones) about why you'd only buy a dog from a responsible breeder or rescue (and what that meant) that would be a start. There's always going to be folk who want only a purebred pup or only a rescue dog. We need to acknowledge it, ditch our own prejudice and help people get the right dog for them. Advocating your own breed because YOU like it, advocating only pound rescue for novice family owners with very young kids.. that's not about who's asking but about our own beliefs.

The PR nightmares of snobbish breeders and dog owners, that you only need papers to show etc can be overcome. Health testing is a message most people get.

If rescuers acknowledge that stopping dogs being dumped is as important as saving them, that's start too. If people want a purebred puppy, then telling them they're killing a pound dog is hardly going to help.

that makes me very annoyed because it is a puerile argument and just plain wrong and sets pedigree and cross bred against one another....we are on the same side

Its no more puerile than the argument that any dog other than a registered purebred must be an inferior animal. Both sides need to work together for the benefit of dogs and families.

yes indeed both arguments do not help anyone

[Shazzapug]

Let me get your definition of Puppy Farmer right Steve.....your not interested in the amount of puppies bred by someone as long as all dogs concerned are being appropriately looked after? And if someone keeps only a few dogs but they dont look after them to the required standard they are Puppy farmers?

IMHO a puppy farmer is a breeder that only sells to the Pet Market and only ever keeps bitches from litters to replenish their over bred breeding bitches, and has more than 2 litters a month.....these breeders would also earn an income of in excess of 50 grand a year and would not be declaring any of it to the tax dept of course. They also might keep impeccable conditions in their homes and kennels which in your view makes them not puppy farmers Steve. There are a hundred times more Puppy farmers out there than the horrible concentration camps we have seen recently in PF raids.

[Steve]

Let me get your definition of Puppy Farmer right Steve.....your not interested in the amount of puppies bred by someone as long as all dogs concerned are being appropriately looked after? And if someone keeps only a few dogs but they dont look after them to the required standard they are Puppy farmers?

IMHO a puppy farmer is a breeder that only sells to the Pet Market and only ever keeps bitches from litters to replenish their over bred breeding bitches, and has more than 2 litters a month.....these breeders would also earn an income of in excess of 50 grand a year and would not be declaring any of it to the tax dept of course. They also might keep impeccable conditions in their homes and kennels which in your view makes them not puppy farmers Steve. There are a hundred times more Puppy farmers out there than the horrible concentration camps we have seen recently in PF raids.

This isnt my definition - its the definition which has been tabled and RSPCA, animal welfare orgs and legislators are working on.

I know this is an issue and that many people who protest puppy farmers think puppy farmers are something dfferent but the reality is that sooner or later if we are to cotrol whats going on we have to agree to the basic definition and for now at least the accepted definition of what is a puppy farmer is set and what I think a puppy farmer is or you isnt counted.

Taking on someone who breeds only pet puppies is different to taking on puppy farmers and ther's no point in getting upset with me over it I didnt make it up. I happened to be at the meeting where it was discussed and an agreement was struck which would be the accepted definition of puppy farming for legislative purposes.

You also dont seem to get that purebred registered breeders who dont breed for the pet market are seen tobe just as cruel and just as needing control as any breeders do.In fact some sections think we are the worst of them because of the suffering we cause by breeding for the ring.

We are not special and just because you think that someone who breeds more than you think is the right number or that they breed for a different purpose or the same purpose differently doesnt get us off the hook whether I agree with you or not.

[OSoSwift]

You also dont seem to get that purebred registered breeders who dont breed for the pet market are seen tobe just as cruel and just as needing control as any breeders do.In fact some sections think we are the worst of them because of the suffering we cause by breeding for the ring.

I do have to agree with this. Where I live crossbreeds and non rego'd purebreeds dominate.

To be a registered breeder or show dogs is seen as snobish and you are thought of as being nasty because you breed for showing only and not for a healthy family pet ( even though all of the puppies are healthy and make great family pets).

Now I know this isn't true, but the average Jo Public does quite ofen feel that rego'd breeders are elitist and we need to show them that is not the case and we can breed wonderful family dogs as well.

Many Jo public's know we can, but many more have been fed the designer dog hybrid vigour crap and they believe it

[Gayle.]

Puppy farms are first and foremost a business enterprise, and the way to stop them is to stop them producing puppies. And how to do that? Stop people from buying them. As soon as there is no demand for the product, they will stop producing it.

And how to stop people buying puppy farm puppies? Start letting them know where to buy better puppies.

People go to pet stores because they are convenient, friendly, accessible and because they've been told that crossbreds are better/healthier than purebreds. And no one is telling them otherwise.

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand.

but that wasn't the question you asked. A shortfall in available puppies might very well be the outcome of shutting down all puppyfarms, but that's a whole other subject.

[Steve]

I support what David Suzuki said about "think globally, act locally".

There are a hell of a lot of dog owners on this forum. If we all had access to a few brochures we could download and hand out to folk we knew were in the market for a dog that would be a start.

If we all had good answers (and not long ones) about why you'd only buy a dog from a responsible breeder or rescue (and what that meant) that would be a start. There's always going to be folk who want only a purebred pup or only a rescue dog. We need to acknowledge it, ditch our own prejudice and help people get the right dog for them. Advocating your own breed because YOU like it, advocating only pound rescue for novice family owners with very young kids.. that's not about who's asking but about our own beliefs.

The PR nightmares of snobbish breeders and dog owners, that you only need papers to show etc can be overcome. Health testing is a message most people get.

If rescuers acknowledge that stopping dogs being dumped is as important as saving them, that's start too. If people want a purebred puppy, then telling them they're killing a pound dog is hardly going to help.

Well until I just went to check I thought we had two up on our website and available for down load.

Im not sure why they are not there but they muct have been missed in the website change over.

I'm hoping they will be back up in a minute .

I can email them to you if you like to have a look at while we are waiting for them to go back up.

Julie

[poodlefan]

Well until I just went to check I thought we had two up on our website and available for down load.

Im not sure why they are not there but they muct have been missed in the website change over.

I'm hoping they will be back up in a minute .

I can email them to you if you like to have a look at while we are waiting for them to go back up.

Julie

PMing you.

[Steve]

Puppy farms are first and foremost a business enterprise, and the way to stop them is to stop them producing puppies. And how to do that? Stop people from buying them. As soon as there is no demand for the product, they will stop producing it.

And how to stop people buying puppy farm puppies? Start letting them know where to buy better puppies.

People go to pet stores because they are convenient, friendly, accessible and because they've been told that crossbreds are better/healthier than purebreds. And no one is telling them otherwise.

Yep however, even if we tell them otherwise there are not enough breeders or dogs to fill the demand.

but that wasn't the question you asked. A shortfall in available puppies might very well be the outcome of shutting down all puppyfarms, but that's a whole other subject.

Go slower - what do you mean?

[raz]

Now I know this isn't true, but the average Jo Public does quite ofen feel that rego'd breeders are elitist and we need to show them that is not the case and we can breed wonderful family dogs as well.

Many Jo public's know we can, but many more have been fed the designer dog hybrid vigour crap and they believe it

I agree and the reception some people get on this forum doesnt help. It happened yesterday with someone asking about breeding - not pointing the finger because I've done it myself jumping on a n00b. It also happened to a member of my family joining up here and asking about a designer dog in the rescue subforum - she was ripped to shreds so she went straight to a puppy farmer to buy a dog. I didnt see the thread but she was pretty shaken up by it and it turned her right off pedigree breeders when at that point she hadnt actually made her mind up.

[Christina]

Let me get your definition of Puppy Farmer right Steve.....your not interested in the amount of puppies bred by someone as long as all dogs concerned are being appropriately looked after? And if someone keeps only a few dogs but they dont look after them to the required standard they are Puppy farmers?

IMHO a puppy farmer is a breeder that only sells to the Pet Market and only ever keeps bitches from litters to replenish their over bred breeding bitches, and has more than 2 litters a month.....these breeders would also earn an income of in excess of 50 grand a year and would not be declaring any of it to the tax dept of course. They also might keep impeccable conditions in their homes and kennels which in your view makes them not puppy farmers Steve. There are a hundred times more Puppy farmers out there than the horrible concentration camps we have seen recently in PF raids.

What a narrow minded view :rolleyes:

This is about animal welfare, including the health & responsibility for the puppies that are put out there.

As a buyer I would prefer my puppy to come from someone who health tests, considers the genetics before breeding, provides advice & on going support if needed, raises their puppies well in good conditions no matter how many dogs they have or if they show.

If its a show breeder who only breeds for themselves & to show, sells off the rest & keeps them in crap conditions I don't care if they aren't a puppy farm. I would not want a pup from them.

Lucky the choice is not always from the 2 extremes. If someone has 2 litters a month, every month & over breeds the bitches obviously there is cause for concern, no matter what you class them as.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

what i want from a breeder is someone who will socialise the dog properly in that critical period so the dog has a reduced chance of becoming fearful.

i also want the dogs to be kept in good conditions and to have a good temperament and health tested.

IMO these four things are the crux of what makes a good dog.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy