So Whats The Answer ?

[Steve]

By now I guess anyone who has read more than one or two of my posts would get that Im against any new laws being introduced and most definitely against giving any more power to the RSPCA until they can assure us that they have some kind of accountability for what they are doing.

However, I acknowledge that some people are definitely breeding dogs and causing them to suffer,that this is unacceptable and we need to try to find a solution.

So I think that there is a whole lot of knowledge and creativity and resource on this forum and that its a very good starting place to start thinking of new ideas and maybe tossing over old ones to try to find a plan of action to create a solution without the risk of too many unintended negative consequences.

If we are to ever get one foot in the door and ever hold off where we seem to be heading we will need some idea of what the alternatives are to solving the problems that have been given so much attention in order to introduce more laws.

There are several which come to mind, BSL mandatory licensing and mandatory desexing,paying bonds if your dogs are seized before you are found guilty, are a couple but there are several others as well.

For now Id like to chat about only one in this thread. Puppy farmers. Definition.

People who breed dogs in sub standard conditions [As defined by the RSPCA roundtable conference]

If we all agree they have to be stopped but we all dont agree we need new laws with a quasi police force in charge of policing them can we as a group discuss possible solutions which we might all agree on and work together on?

[shortstep]

By now I guess anyone who has read more than one or two of my posts would get that Im against any new laws being introduced and most definitely against giving any more power to the RSPCA until they can assure us that they have some kind of accountability for what they are doing.

However, I acknowledge that some people are definitely breeding dogs and causing them to suffer,that this is unacceptable and we need to try to find a solution.

So I think that there is a whole lot of knowledge and creativity and resource on this forum and that its a very good starting place to start thinking of new ideas and maybe tossing over old ones to try to find a plan of action to create a solution without the risk of too many unintended negative consequences.

If we are to ever get one foot in the door and ever hold off where we seem to be heading we will need some idea of what the alternatives are to solving the problems that have been given so much attention in order to introduce more laws.

There are several which come to mind, BSL mandatory licensing and mandatory desexing,paying bonds if your dogs are seized before you are found guilty, are a couple but there are several others as well.

For now Id like to chat about only one in this thread. Puppy farmers. Definition.

People who breed dogs in sub standard conditions [As defined by the RSPCA roundtable conference]

If we all agree they have to be stopped but we all dont agree we need new laws with a quasi police force in charge of policing them can we as a group discuss possible solutions which we might all agree on and work together on?

I am not sure what you are asking, how to prevent any pup from being born into substandard condiions?

I believe that is impossible, even with every law you can think of and constant policing, as long as people are allowed to breed at all someone will breed in substandard conditions. I have often thought that is the desired end point of having the laws. Someone will always do a bad job proving that no one should be allowed to breed dogs.

One way to get rid of pupy mills would be to make it illegal to sell dogs. But there would still be some idiot around that does not desex his bitch and it gets preg and he does a horrid job of it. Sorry just rambling now, not much help.

[Steve]

By now I guess anyone who has read more than one or two of my posts would get that Im against any new laws being introduced and most definitely against giving any more power to the RSPCA until they can assure us that they have some kind of accountability for what they are doing.

However, I acknowledge that some people are definitely breeding dogs and causing them to suffer,that this is unacceptable and we need to try to find a solution.

So I think that there is a whole lot of knowledge and creativity and resource on this forum and that its a very good starting place to start thinking of new ideas and maybe tossing over old ones to try to find a plan of action to create a solution without the risk of too many unintended negative consequences.

If we are to ever get one foot in the door and ever hold off where we seem to be heading we will need some idea of what the alternatives are to solving the problems that have been given so much attention in order to introduce more laws.

There are several which come to mind, BSL mandatory licensing and mandatory desexing,paying bonds if your dogs are seized before you are found guilty, are a couple but there are several others as well.

For now Id like to chat about only one in this thread. Puppy farmers. Definition.

People who breed dogs in sub standard conditions [As defined by the RSPCA roundtable conference]

If we all agree they have to be stopped but we all dont agree we need new laws with a quasi police force in charge of policing them can we as a group discuss possible solutions which we might all agree on and work together on?

I am not sure what you are asking, how to prevent any pup from being born into substandard condiions?

I believe that is impossible, even with every law you can think of and constant policing, as long as people are allowed to breed at all someone will breed in substandard conditions. I have often thought that is the desired end point of having the laws. Someone will always do a bad job proving that no one should be allowed to breed dogs.

One way to get rid of pupy mills would be to make it illegal to sell dogs. But there would still be some idiot around that does not desex his bitch and it gets preg and he does a horrid job of it. Sorry just rambling now, not much help.

True - I think most people who are thinking on can see that there will always be someone who is mucking it up but how to make it potentially less rewarding for those who do cut corners to such an extreme that they cause their dogs to suffer and how do we be seen to be addressing the problem without pushing for laws?

Edited November 6, 2010 by Steve

[BigPaws]

Steve, I don't believe that any kind of restrictions on dogs, such as BSL, mandatory desexing, etc is going to end puppy farming. From my perspective, we need laws on pet ownership. Animals should be treated with respect and only those who can give an animal the home it deserves and needs should have them. Animals should not be treated as a possession, but they so often are.

We need to have a system where every puppy is registered with a central body and any health/temperament concerns are listed for everyone to see. It must be so easy for a puppy farmer to convince unsuspecting people that they are selling well bred dogs. It must also be easy for registered breeders to sell "less than perfect" pups for a good profit.

[tdierikx]

OK - what about slowing down the dodgy commercial mass puppy breeders by insisting that the RSPCA (or any other body that has the powers) actually go in there and enforce the current laws that are being broken. Until the people responsible for policing the laws actually do so less than intermittently, we ain't going to see anything change - new laws or not...

Get the RSPCA to go with Debra on some of her puppy farm raids that she has pics posted of all over her website... surely those sort of places can be shut down under the current laws?

Maybe some of the money that is earmarked for policing any new laws could be better spent possibly advertising on TV, radio, print media, etc with some very real info on where so many of those cute little fluffy puppies in the stores actually come from?

T.

[xKALIx]

Forgive my somewhat biased opinion here but I am coming from a different standpoint to a lot of the breeders on here. Try not to shoot me down too much :p because I love a good, ethical breeder as much as the next person!

I don't believe we should be breeding as much as we are. This comes after seeing the sheer amount of dogs in rescue groups and shelters. It's a constant stream of people giving away their pets, which goes to show there are a lot of unworthy owners... The sad thing is that there's a lot of purebred dogs out there... not just the crossbreeds. Too many dogs are dying, foster carers are overloaded and people still keep buying puppies... Right now there's a lactating mother in the LDH, the owners don't want her back because she's too much of a hassle and they're planning to raise the puppies themselves. This type of person is the people I am targeting above all else in my idea, not the type of people who post on this forum...

Ideally, I would love to see a licencing system put in place for both breeders and pet owners. I would love for mandatory desexing of dogs and cats (aside from those with a breeder/show licence) and a mandatory day course & test before a pet can be purchased. This won't be the end of all unnecessary deaths in shelters, but I'm sure it would help alleviate the problem.

The thing is, we need a body other than the RSPCA to organise this, because they care about nothing more than lining their coffers... Maybe the money collected from the licences could be used to run a department for this?

[BigPaws]

Anyone who cares about the welfare of individual dogs would not condone mandatory desexing. I'm talking about higher risks of some cancers in certain breeds.

Mandatory desexing will not stop puppy farming. Responsible people who register their dogs will have them desexed. People who farm them will not.

As long as these people are allowed to advertise their pups in newspapers, online, etc, people will buy them.

[Gayle.]

Maybe start encouraging those who have the power, to utilise the current legislation and start applying it correctly. For example, local councils. Commercial breeding establishments need to register with the council, therefore the councils should be concerning themselves with making sure they are up to a quality standard, then utilise the RSPCA as a watchdog to oversee them.

I don't believe we should be breeding as much as we are. This comes after seeing the sheer amount of dogs in rescue groups and shelters. It's a constant stream of people giving away their pets, which goes to show there are a lot of unworthy owners.

Registered, ethical, pedigree dog breeders breeding less will have very little or no impact on the numbers of unwanted dogs. Most of the purebred dogs in rescue don't come from ethical breeders, they come from puppy farms and backyard breeders.

[Rusky]

Most of the purebred dogs in rescue don't come from ethical breeders, they come from puppy farms and backyard breeders.

but how did the dogs get there in the first place ? Surely a very good starting point would be mandatory desexing of pet puppies. I mean I bought a few dogs from great breeders who followed me along and kept in touch but honestly ? not one ever asked me if I was going to desex. I don't know how or what impact there would be if breeders sold pups desexed or even if it would ever be possible but every breeder knows that there is a chance their sold pet puppy could have a litter or sire a litter.

I don't think that any breeders are to blame it is just the way it is.

I also don't think that you will ever stop backyard breeding unless there is a very strict regulation put into place and honestly I wouldn't want that for a massive variety of reasons which have been discussed here before.

I really believe that every single pup and every single dog in every single state or any imported dog should be microchipped from now ...today...this needs to be part of the dog act.

Those chips could then show where the dog originated and current owner.

That no pup could be sold unless chipped.

That no dogs be sold in pet shops, that each farm comply with a number which can be bred and sold.

well it would be a good starting point and nothing that hasn't been said before.

[*Bones*]

This subject is continually raised. Answers are given. None are accepted. If you doubt me, check the previous threads on the subject. A puppy farm is a commercial eterprise where dogs are housed as a commercial entitty. Governments, RSPCA and other bodies do not accept this, as it does not suit their intention. Dogs are not and should not be treated as farm animals. Instead of continually raising the same question why not ask your registering body to make a submission to the government, or make individual ones yourselves.

That type of unsuitable breeding leads to dogs which are not ideal pets and which are the ones most lkely to be dumped, because they have various issues whch pet owners cannot cope with

[OSoSwift]

I think all puppies should be chipped and the information regarding who bred them should stay on there.

THen pwoplw would have an idea of where all these puppies are coming from. I think when we have more of an idea where they are coming from can we then figure out the best way to manage the excess of puppies being euthed, dogs surrended etc.

Oh and purebred does not mean registered or from a person doing the right thing.

[Jumabaar]

My very far fetched 2cents worth

I would think being able to trace a puppy back to the original source- so micro chips identifying the breeder which could be recorded on a national data base. Alows identification of where dumped pups originate from so that there can be effective communication/education to the consumers that are likely to go there.

Laws actually making a breeders desexing agreement legal. It's thrown around all the time that people will buy a pup and then not bother to desex and a breeder has no control over that and that a desexing agreement is really worth nothing.

So perhaps a legal document that can be drawn up stating that the dog is not to be bred from and a fine it is proven that it is. This would of course be expensive to prove as it would require DNA testing, but it would at least allow some control over pure bred dogs ending up at puppy farms

The ANKC also has to stand up and ensure that the code of ethics is not being breached. They can't control non registered breeders but perhaps if they were more pro active in searching for poor breeders they would be able to have more influence.

It also has to come from the other canine registries as a joint front it think to make sure their code of ethics is being monitored. And to just lobby the govt into putting money into education and enforcing current laws.

[spanky]

One thing I'd like to see is that pet shops be required to provide the info on who they purchase their puppies from to the council... this way council could check for appropriate licencing / dog rego and do a visit to see what the conditions were like.

Microchips being required to record the info of the breeder permanently... this could then help councils (via pound info) to know if there are lots of dogs coming from a particular breeder and do an inspection.

Stopping the dodgy backyard breeder would be a whole lot harder. I'm not sure how you would find them or inspect them.

Edited November 6, 2010 by sparky

[BigPaws]

In response to the people who say "all pet dogs should be desexed"

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't imagine that any breeder could possibly understand what a pet owner feels towards their dog. I am a pet owner and have an entire female. She is kept entire because it is the best thing for her health. It is not easy keeping an entire female when she is on heat and definitely not something I would choose to do. I could not live with myself if for some reason I had to rehome one of my dogs. Breeders do this all the time.

Dogs should be desexed based on what is best for the individual dog. If a person is not capable of doing the right thing by that dog, then that person should not be allowed to have that dog.

Desexing dogs based on the stupidity of humans is no different to saying that 90% of humans should be desexed as children because their offspring will be abused in some way.

[Rusky]

If a person is not capable of doing the right thing by that dog, then that person should not be allowed to have that dog.

unfortunately they can, they can neglect and abuse, breed and abandon. You can't control people, you can control the number of puppies.

[Shazzapug]

Puppy farmers hiding behind their Dogs Vic or what ever state society membership would be registering their puppies, Yes....when a breeder is registering a litter every month or 2 or 3 a month, or goes over what ever number one would consider a large amount of puppies one would consider them a puppy farmer, why cant then things be in place to visit this breeder....and go from there.? The state societys have all the records why cant they use for the good of the dogs rather than just money grabbing from members.

[BigPaws]

Rusky, anyone can abuse, breed and abandon. Even Registered Breeders!

You're right about not being able to control people, but I fail to see how you think the number of puppies can be controlled. As long as it's legal to sell live animals via Gumtree, ebay, etc there will be a market and there are unscrupulous people who will take advantage of this.

If you did a Root Cause Analysis of unwanted puppies, what do you think the root cause is? It's selfish humans. Why should individual dogs suffer because people are basically idiots?

[moosmum]

Mandatory microchipping,used as a life time trace for dogs could be a very valuable tool.

I believe the current laws,if properly policed,are sufficient.(provided that mandatory 'chipping as a trace is utilised)

I believe the main problems come down to a lack of knowledge by Joe average.

Dogs are no longer a normal part of life for the majority of people,and most of the Joe averages who do have dogs no longer have the wealth of information available from friends and neighbours when there are problems.

People no longer know any better.

They have no idea where to get a dog and turn to the pet shops,papers and on-line.

They have no idea the sort of help thats available from behaviourists or training clubs and groups.

No idea of diet unless its on the supermarket shelf in front of them.

No idea how many dogs are pt each day.

No idea whats involved in raising and training a puppy.

Or caring for an older dog.

No idea that some breeds are known for certain traits that may mean its an unsuitable choice for them.

No idea of their responsibilities or the laws.

No idea that socialisation is required or why.

You want a dog,you just go get one.Easy.

I realy believe the only way around this education as part of schooling ,startying in primary school right up to high school.Even if only 2 days a year.

Going to animal shelters to see what happens to unwanted dogs/pets.

Learn about the laws and responsibilities of keeping animals.

See and handle dogs while learning about safe behaviour around animals.Learn about service dogs.Behaviourists,vets,trainers,kennels etc.

Show children that animals DO have a place in society,but that comes with responsibilities for us all.

Peer pressure,once a greater understanding is known,will eventualy see a lot of these problems enormously reduced.

Ignorance is the biggest problem IMO.

What people don't understand,they fear or abuse.

[shortstep]

Forgive my somewhat biased opinion here but I am coming from a different standpoint to a lot of the breeders on here. Try not to shoot me down too much because I love a good, ethical breeder as much as the next person!

I don't believe we should be breeding as much as we are. This comes after seeing the sheer amount of dogs in rescue groups and shelters. It's a constant stream of people giving away their pets, which goes to show there are a lot of unworthy owners... The sad thing is that there's a lot of purebred dogs out there... not just the crossbreeds. Too many dogs are dying, foster carers are overloaded and people still keep buying puppies... Right now there's a lactating mother in the LDH, the owners don't want her back because she's too much of a hassle and they're planning to raise the puppies themselves. This type of person is the people I am targeting above all else in my idea, not the type of people who post on this forum...

Ideally, I would love to see a licencing system put in place for both breeders and pet owners. I would love for mandatory desexing of dogs and cats (aside from those with a breeder/show licence) and a mandatory day course & test before a pet can be purchased. This won't be the end of all unnecessary deaths in shelters, but I'm sure it would help alleviate the problem.

The thing is, we need a body other than the RSPCA to organise this, because they care about nothing more than lining their coffers... Maybe the money collected from the licences could be used to run a department for this?

You realize we do not require all this for a person to have a child.

You believe dogs should be more protected by laws, tests, screening, mandatory medical treatments and licenses than human babies deserve.

Further you believe only certain superior people should be allowed to breed a dog or own a dog, yet anyone can have a baby.

I think it is way way over the top.

People in general are good not bad, though I know this is not a popular way of looking at humans these days.

Can I ask, do you think you are a good enough human to own a dog?

How many other people have you met in your life you think are good enough to own a dog, must not be very many since you feel all this is needed for them to cleared to own a dog.

The more I think about it the more sorry I feel for you, what a terriable way to see the world.

Edited November 6, 2010 by shortstep

[Esky the husky]

Great post moosmum