"can We Have Her On The Main Register?"

[cowanbree]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

[Shazzapug]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

Great statement....I agree.

[ellz]

I've never bred for pets.

I do understand the rationale of some, whereby at least if "good" breeders breed for pets then it is taking away the business of the BYBers and millers....but I don't think I could ever see myself doing it.

I'd far rather do what I do now.....breed for myself and then what I don't keep are available for companion homes.

But definitely not vice versa. Too much hassle, too many risks to gamble my girls for pet homes IMO.

[dancinbcs]

I've never bred for pets.

I do understand the rationale of some, whereby at least if "good" breeders breed for pets then it is taking away the business of the BYBers and millers....but I don't think I could ever see myself doing it.

I'd far rather do what I do now.....breed for myself and then what I don't keep are available for companion homes.

But definitely not vice versa. Too much hassle, too many risks to gamble my girls for pet homes IMO.

Agreed. Far to much work and too many risks involved for the bitch to just breed to produce pets. With every litter the aim should be to produce the next generation, that is hopefully an improvement on the parents. With this in mind a litter of all limited register puppies is a complete waste for the bitch and for the breed, as none will contribute to the future of the breed and if we don't start encouraging the next generation of breeders there will not be any breeds to contribute to. Of course, if there is nothing good enough to breed from they should all be desexed but if there is at least one show/breeding quality puppy in the litter, it should get the chance to make a contribution to the breed.

Hardly any of the breeders I have met over the years, started out with the intention of breeding. Most just bought a nice main registered pet (as they all were before limit came in), then decided to show or maybe just have one litter to see what it was like. If they bred a litter, they invariably kept a baby and being so proud of it, decided to show. A few wins later they a hooked and go on to be stalwarts of the breed.

I know we have to be careful who we sell to and that breeders do get get duped, but sometimes you just have to place some trust in someone even if they do suddenly decide that they might want to breed. In this case with LizT's puppy I would offer to possibly transfer the puppy to main at a later date if you think the puppy is good enough to breed from when she matures or if they want to give showing a shot, you can always sell a main register puppy and keep it in dual names until you get to know the person better. This buyer may well have very good mentors on hand that will help her to do the right thing and with the right encouragement may become a dedicated breeder and that is something that most breeds desperately need more of.

[ellz]

In this case with LizT's puppy I would offer to possibly transfer the puppy to main at a later date if you think the puppy is good enough to breed from when she matures or if they want to give showing a shot,

Sadly, I did this. A really stunning dog from my first litter went to a great obedience home on LR. The agreement being that when he was older, if the owners were interested in showing, the dog could be evaluated by a trusted person who lived where they did and if all checked out, then he could be elevated to Main Register. This was done. Some time later, I sold the couple a bitch from the repeat breeding on Main Registration.

To my absolute horror and disgust, I discovered some time later that they had let full brother and sister produce a litter.....ALL of which were sold on Main Register.

Never, EVER again!!! My puppies that are sold on Limited Register now STAY on Limited Register. If they're too good to be on Limited Register and in a pet home, then they stay with me. It's as simple as that!

[Rottsup]

Hi all,

This has been interesting reading. I just a question or 3 after reading through this thread....

If the breeder has sold her pups on a LR and a non breeding contract, dosn't the local Canine control the "non breeding" part? eg: the puppy buyer can not register a litter from a bitch purchased on a non breeding contract. Therefore when some of you mention the contract is not worth the paper it's written on and it is merely a deterant... does that mean the puppy buyer can register her litter from the bitch who was sold "under a non breeding contract" or are you saying that these people have a litter anyway, just not a registered litter?

I am also aware that the back of the pedigree papers now have a tick box thing with common clauses. The seller/breeder just ticks a box to say "non breeding" or whatever clauses the breeder wishes to add and no contract is required as it is part of the transfer.

My friend who is a breeder and has been for many years, has a bitch (no need to tell breed) who was sold to her on the MR but with a breeders clause for the bitch to go back to the breeder for a litter. The breeder and my friend fell out before the bitch was 12 months old. My friend would love to breed with her as she is a very good example of the breed and was titled quite young. She is now almost 2 1/2 years old and has her CH & ET titles. Due to the contract/s she is saddened to not use this bitch in her breeding program and has offered her back to the breeder for a litter but the breeder refuses to discuss the bitch. Sad situation. :p

I hope I haven't confused anyone as I think I am starting to confuse myself.

Thanks

Michelle

[ellz]

A dog being on LR is only a deterrent to honest would-be breeders. They cannot register the progeny but it won't stop them from breeding from the dog if they wanted to.

A spey/neuter agreement will again only deter the honest people. If somebody wanted to get really bolshy, they could refuse to honour the agreement and the breeder wouldn't have a leg to stand on because legally, a contract has to be fair to all parties. And basically, once a person has sold something, they have no further right to it, agreement or no agreement.

For example, if I purchase a fridge from Harvey Norman, they can't force me to not put bacon or ham in it once I get it home. By law, the shop offered the item for sale for a certain price. I agreed to pay that price and if they agree to me paying it, then we have an agreement and I can take it home with me. They can't then stop me from putting whatever I like in it, even if I have signed a piece of paper to say that they'd rather I didn't. After all, I have the fridge and how are they to know what I do with it?

[Rottsup]

A dog being on LR is only a deterrent to honest would-be breeders. They cannot register the progeny but it won't stop them from breeding from the dog if they wanted to.

A spey/neuter agreement will again only deter the honest people. If somebody wanted to get really bolshy, they could refuse to honour the agreement and the breeder wouldn't have a leg to stand on because legally, a contract has to be fair to all parties. And basically, once a person has sold something, they have no further right to it, agreement or no agreement.

For example, if I purchase a fridge from Harvey Norman, they can't force me to not put bacon or ham in it once I get it home. By law, the shop offered the item for sale for a certain price. I agreed to pay that price and if they agree to me paying it, then we have an agreement and I can take it home with me. They can't then stop me from putting whatever I like in it, even if I have signed a piece of paper to say that they'd rather I didn't. After all, I have the fridge and how are they to know what I do with it?

Yeah, I get what you're saying ellz and it does sound rather simple when you put it into a fridge situation, but does that mean my friend could breed with her bitch and register the litter because the breeders non breeding contract means nothing? Will the local canine actually register the litter?

As you said in an earlier post (and I agree) who would want to breed just for the pet people when you wish to breed for your own new stock and the betterment of the breed standard in general.

[ellz]

Whether or not your friend could breed would depend upon whether an flags had been put on the bitches registration with the controlling body. If a copy of the agreement has been lodged with the controlling body, then she probably wouldn't be able to register a litter without a court order.

If it were me, for my own conscience' sake, I'd rather try and work things out amicably first, then perhaps do things legally if the relationship had soured to that extent.

Having said that, I leased a dog to somebody on the mainland and to save myself the angst in the long run, despite the fact that I would have won the dog legally if I had had the resources (and heart) to go through the courts, I agreed to a sum that was a LOT less than the dog was worth and just signed him over. I regret doing it and sadly, may people will never know the truth about what happened, but at the end of the day it was simpler just to sign off and walk away.

[Rottsup]

Yes, she tried many of the amicable ways.....calling on the phone only to be hung up on, emailing - only to recieve a reply "my breeding, my rules", going to her home - only to be told where to go..... you name it, my friend has tried.

Anyway I just thought there may have been some hope for her apart from ending up in court which is where it will probably end up.

Thanks ellz, you have the knowledge, that's why I thought I would ask.

[LizT]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

I have kept my 'pick". My hope that the others be "pets" is that they stay in a home for life and not get moved on as I see happen with many "breeders" dogs. It's not something I'm ready to see happen with the first litter I've bred. I'm not "seasoned' enough for that yet.

[LizT]

In this case with LizT's puppy I would offer to possibly transfer the puppy to main at a later date if you think the puppy is good enough to breed from when she matures or if they want to give showing a shot,

Sadly, I did this. A really stunning dog from my first litter went to a great obedience home on LR. The agreement being that when he was older, if the owners were interested in showing, the dog could be evaluated by a trusted person who lived where they did and if all checked out, then he could be elevated to Main Register. This was done. Some time later, I sold the couple a bitch from the repeat breeding on Main Registration.

To my absolute horror and disgust, I discovered some time later that they had let full brother and sister produce a litter.....ALL of which were sold on Main Register.

Never, EVER again!!! My puppies that are sold on Limited Register now STAY on Limited Register. If they're too good to be on Limited Register and in a pet home, then they stay with me. It's as simple as that!

The buyer and I sat down and had a chat about breeding, health checks etc.

Basically I told her that the puppy I'm keeping is one I have hopes for and that I will have full control over who she is bred with and whether she is bred again etc.

The puppy I have sold her is one I have decided not to keep and therefore is offered on Limited Register to a Pet home for that very reason..that I'm not choosing to bred her on and therefore don't want anyone else to do so.

I told her if she is serious about getting involved in the breed we could talk later but at this point the puppy will remain on the Limited Register.

She is happy with that, has signed a desexing agreement, which I know isn't worth anything legally, but I wont be giving the $100 dollar refund on desexing that I have offered to anyone who hasn't signed it or who tries to breed the bitch, and then desex her.

[LizT]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

Great statement....I agree.

Yes, it is a great statement and I totally agree with it in essense....however it does bother me, (and I'm sure this bothers all breeders) that this also means that the greater majority of YOUR breed is out there in the community having been bred by BYB, Puppy Millers and those that do no health checks and do nothing to improve the breed or produce a quality representation of YOUR breed. But I'm not really sure if anything can be done about this under the current climate.

[PomsNZ]

Heres a thought....

IF she really wants to get into showing, why cant she go along to shows WITH YOU and do a *internship* or similar?

Im of the same mind as you, nothing of mine goes out for breeding, BUT if someone generally wanted to get into breeding, and showing then Im MORE than happy to let someone know what showing is all about. If i still cannot provide a dog, there is always importing, or other breeders.

[whippets]

Stick to your guns and don't let puppy buyers dictate what they want you to do with your breeding. If you want the dog sold on limited rego then sell on limited rego. If they don't like that then they can go somewhere else.

It really is that simple.

[Shazzapug]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

Great statement....I agree.

Yes, it is a great statement and I totally agree with it in essense....however it does bother me, (and I'm sure this bothers all breeders) that this also means that the greater majority of YOUR breed is out there in the community having been bred by BYB, Puppy Millers and those that do no health checks and do nothing to improve the breed or produce a quality representation of YOUR breed. But I'm not really sure if anything can be done about this under the current climate.

What are you talking about??? My breed only has 3-5 puppies of which I keep at least 2 to run on so maybe 3 are sold as pets if lucky. How can you say this when you bred the whole litter for pets....how many were in the litter????

[LizT]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

Great statement....I agree.

Yes, it is a great statement and I totally agree with it in essense....however it does bother me, (and I'm sure this bothers all breeders) that this also means that the greater majority of YOUR breed is out there in the community having been bred by BYB, Puppy Millers and those that do no health checks and do nothing to improve the breed or produce a quality representation of YOUR breed. But I'm not really sure if anything can be done about this under the current climate.

What are you talking about??? My breed only has 3-5 puppies of which I keep at least 2 to run on so maybe 3 are sold as pets if lucky. How can you say this when you bred the whole litter for pets....how many were in the litter????

I did not breed the whole litter for pets. My hope was to have something good enough to keep, but that is not always the case is it? I have retained a bitch that I have high hopes for but cannot keep all five bitches. My hopes for the remaining pups in the litter was for them to also be sound healthy puppies that would be placed in Pet homes. With a popular breed like Cavaliers there is a huge BYB market and they are always seen in Pet Shop Windows, usually poor examples of the breed to boot. THAT is what I am talking about! Therefore, I don't see what your problem is with producing a litter of pups, from which I intended to keep one bitch, and any other pups I hoped to be healthy, quality puppies for the general Public to own.

[The Ark]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

Great statement....I agree.

Yes, it is a great statement and I totally agree with it in essense....however it does bother me, (and I'm sure this bothers all breeders) that this also means that the greater majority of YOUR breed is out there in the community having been bred by BYB, Puppy Millers and those that do no health checks and do nothing to improve the breed or produce a quality representation of YOUR breed. But I'm not really sure if anything can be done about this under the current climate.

What are you talking about??? My breed only has 3-5 puppies of which I keep at least 2 to run on so maybe 3 are sold as pets if lucky. How can you say this when you bred the whole litter for pets....how many were in the litter????

I did not breed the whole litter for pets. My hope was to have something good enough to keep, but that is not always the case is it? I have retained a bitch that I have high hopes for but cannot keep all five bitches. My hopes for the remaining pups in the litter was for them to also be sound healthy puppies that would be placed in Pet homes. With a popular breed like Cavaliers there is a huge BYB market and they are always seen in Pet Shop Windows, usually poor examples of the breed to boot. THAT is what I am talking about! Therefore, I don't see what your problem is with producing a litter of pups, from which I intended to keep one bitch, and any other pups I hoped to be healthy, quality puppies for the general Public to own.

This just sounds like a misunderstanding. You said originally that you bred the litter just for pets, but later clarified that with your last post above. And I understand that you would rather see the general public with great examples of the breed rather than the substandard BYB pups that are often seen in pet shops etc. I think we'd all like to see that!

[LizT]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

Great statement....I agree.

Yes, it is a great statement and I totally agree with it in essense....however it does bother me, (and I'm sure this bothers all breeders) that this also means that the greater majority of YOUR breed is out there in the community having been bred by BYB, Puppy Millers and those that do no health checks and do nothing to improve the breed or produce a quality representation of YOUR breed. But I'm not really sure if anything can be done about this under the current climate.

What are you talking about??? My breed only has 3-5 puppies of which I keep at least 2 to run on so maybe 3 are sold as pets if lucky. How can you say this when you bred the whole litter for pets....how many were in the litter????

I did not breed the whole litter for pets. My hope was to have something good enough to keep, but that is not always the case is it? I have retained a bitch that I have high hopes for but cannot keep all five bitches. My hopes for the remaining pups in the litter was for them to also be sound healthy puppies that would be placed in Pet homes. With a popular breed like Cavaliers there is a huge BYB market and they are always seen in Pet Shop Windows, usually poor examples of the breed to boot. THAT is what I am talking about! Therefore, I don't see what your problem is with producing a litter of pups, from which I intended to keep one bitch, and any other pups I hoped to be healthy, quality puppies for the general Public to own.

This just sounds like a misunderstanding. You said originally that you bred the litter just for pets, but later clarified that with your last post above. And I understand that you would rather see the general public with great examples of the breed rather than the substandard BYB pups that are often seen in pet shops etc. I think we'd all like to see that!

Yes, The Ark, exactly.

When I said I had bred this litter for "Pets Only" I meant that I had no intention of selling any to a breeder unless I knew them or someone whose opinion I respected "vouched" for them.

I'm not even sure if the one I've kept is ever going to be "more than a pet" but she will be a pet I'm proud of, as I hope is the case with her sisters.

Edited November 8, 2010 by LizT

[Shazzapug]

25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.

And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough

Great statement....I agree.

Yes, it is a great statement and I totally agree with it in essense....however it does bother me, (and I'm sure this bothers all breeders) that this also means that the greater majority of YOUR breed is out there in the community having been bred by BYB, Puppy Millers and those that do no health checks and do nothing to improve the breed or produce a quality representation of YOUR breed. But I'm not really sure if anything can be done about this under the current climate.

What are you talking about??? My breed only has 3-5 puppies of which I keep at least 2 to run on so maybe 3 are sold as pets if lucky. How can you say this when you bred the whole litter for pets....how many were in the litter????

I did not breed the whole litter for pets. My hope was to have something good enough to keep, but that is not always the case is it? I have retained a bitch that I have high hopes for but cannot keep all five bitches. My hopes for the remaining pups in the litter was for them to also be sound healthy puppies that would be placed in Pet homes. With a popular breed like Cavaliers there is a huge BYB market and they are always seen in Pet Shop Windows, usually poor examples of the breed to boot. THAT is what I am talking about! Therefore, I don't see what your problem is with producing a litter of pups, from which I intended to keep one bitch, and any other pups I hoped to be healthy, quality puppies for the general Public to own.

This just sounds like a misunderstanding. You said originally that you bred the litter just for pets, but later clarified that with your last post above. And I understand that you would rather see the general public with great examples of the breed rather than the substandard BYB pups that are often seen in pet shops etc. I think we'd all like to see that!

Yes, The Ark, exactly. :D

When I said I had bred this litter for "Pets Only" I meant that I had no intention of selling any to a breeder unless I knew them or someone whose opinion I respected "vouched" for them.

I'm not even sure if the one I've kept is ever going to be "more than a pet" but she will be a pet I'm proud of, as I hope is the case with her sisters. :rolleyes:

Sorry was going on your opening post.