Rare Or Disqualifed Colours In Breeds.

[JulesP]

Breed standards should however change to reflect our better understanding of colour gentics. And some of the standards are just plain dumb.

[Sayreovi]

Once upon a time when standards were set it was basically a case of a handful of people stating their own colour preferences and so originated what colours would be accepted and others disqualified. Time has passed and it is a shame that the preferences of those individuals still have to be upheld....time to move on and I am sure that quite a few people would agree. There are such beautiful dogs in both type and conformation but simply because they are born of a colour that is not standard approved they are frowned upon.....

Things have changed over the decades....so what's the hold up? lol

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job.

I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR.

[felix]

This looks (to me) like a wheaten kerry blue terrier.

What do you think?

Edited November 10, 2010 by felix

[Moselle]

Okay....for example...blue staffies are not welcomed in the show ring because of a supposedly "slate" nose....what the heck? so if that is a normal occurance in the breed it should be welcomed. It isn't as though they have something else in the mix....the same applies to other breeds disqualified from the show ring due to colouring because of some ancient decision.

I'd like to think that the views of the people who developed a breed and defined its standards are not irrelevant.

In some breeds, colour matters. In others it may be linked to highly undesireable genetic traits. A breed standard should not change to reflect the whims of the current generation of breeders.

Next you'll be telling us that breed function shouldn't matter because so many breeds no longer perform their original function.

Well judging from examples laid out here....the blue staffy is not allowed to be shown because its nose is not black....some have said that blue dogs are prone to skin issues....well, that is not always the case and in fact not all dilutes are afflicted with this issue and what difference does it make if a nose pad is either black or blue....slate blue suits a blue staffy.

No, I wont be one to say that breed function does not matter, I am all for breeding sound and healthy dogs....must say that I don't approve of dogs being utilised for hunting as I dont believe in it but that is not about to stop anyway and has nothing to do with colouring.

[Moselle]

Once upon a time when standards were set it was basically a case of a handful of people stating their own colour preferences and so originated what colours would be accepted and others disqualified. Time has passed and it is a shame that the preferences of those individuals still have to be upheld....time to move on and I am sure that quite a few people would agree. There are such beautiful dogs in both type and conformation but simply because they are born of a colour that is not standard approved they are frowned upon.....

Things have changed over the decades....so what's the hold up? lol

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job.

I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR.

You are entitled to hold onto that opinion but could it be that perhaps you got so used to seeing reddy orange tollers that any other colour doesn't seem "real" or should I say perhaps does not appear to be purebred even though you know they are ??? Perhaps it is a case of being set in one's ways and becoming accustomed to a particular look.

Are you saying that perhaps a buff is not able to hold its own in doing what is expected of it?

[Moselle]

Breed standards should however change to reflect our better understanding of colour gentics. And some of the standards are just plain dumb.

Utterly and totally true

[Sayreovi]

Once upon a time when standards were set it was basically a case of a handful of people stating their own colour preferences and so originated what colours would be accepted and others disqualified. Time has passed and it is a shame that the preferences of those individuals still have to be upheld....time to move on and I am sure that quite a few people would agree. There are such beautiful dogs in both type and conformation but simply because they are born of a colour that is not standard approved they are frowned upon.....

Things have changed over the decades....so what's the hold up? lol

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job.

I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR.

You are entitled to hold onto that opinion but could it be that perhaps you got so used to seeing reddy orange tollers that any other colour doesn't seem "real" or should I say perhaps does not appear to be purebred even though you know they are ??? Perhaps it is a case of being set in one's ways and becoming accustomed to a particular look.

Are you saying that perhaps a buff is not able to hold its own in doing what is expected of it?

If you knew anything at all about the breed standards you are talking about, you would know that Tollers were originally bred to resemble foxes as that is the colour that ducks are most attracted to when be lured in closer to shore.

So no, the buff colour can not perform its original function.

[asal]

Ditto Rysup!

Chocolate TTs are gorgeous but excluded because the Tibetans found that choc-born pups died young so it was essentially "bad luck" to have a chocolate and exceptionally good luck to have a white Tibetan Terrier 'cos they generally have great black pigment which makes them less susceptible to skin cancer. :D Chocolates died young because they had lighter than usual pigment and got skin cancer - the Tibetans didn't know it of course but their assumptions were pretty smack on with genetics - simple really!

Chocolate don't die now as we know about sunscreen!

how odd, my brothers first dog was a chocolate and tan chi. he died aged 16 with no cancers whatever and he was always outside as he just couldnt resist marking in the house. so mum gave him the boot, no more housedog for him

[Moselle]

Once upon a time when standards were set it was basically a case of a handful of people stating their own colour preferences and so originated what colours would be accepted and others disqualified. Time has passed and it is a shame that the preferences of those individuals still have to be upheld....time to move on and I am sure that quite a few people would agree. There are such beautiful dogs in both type and conformation but simply because they are born of a colour that is not standard approved they are frowned upon.....

Things have changed over the decades....so what's the hold up? lol

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job.

I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR.

You are entitled to hold onto that opinion but could it be that perhaps you got so used to seeing reddy orange tollers that any other colour doesn't seem "real" or should I say perhaps does not appear to be purebred even though you know they are ??? Perhaps it is a case of being set in one's ways and becoming accustomed to a particular look.

Are you saying that perhaps a buff is not able to hold its own in doing what is expected of it?

If you knew anything at all about the breed standards you are talking about, you would know that Tollers were originally bred to resemble foxes as that is the colour that ducks are most attracted to when be lured in closer to shore.

So no, the buff colour can not perform its original function.

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

[asal]

Once upon a time when standards were set it was basically a case of a handful of people stating their own colour preferences and so originated what colours would be accepted and others disqualified. Time has passed and it is a shame that the preferences of those individuals still have to be upheld....time to move on and I am sure that quite a few people would agree. There are such beautiful dogs in both type and conformation but simply because they are born of a colour that is not standard approved they are frowned upon.....

Things have changed over the decades....so what's the hold up? lol

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job.

I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR.

You are entitled to hold onto that opinion but could it be that perhaps you got so used to seeing reddy orange tollers that any other colour doesn't seem "real" or should I say perhaps does not appear to be purebred even though you know they are ??? Perhaps it is a case of being set in one's ways and becoming accustomed to a particular look.

Are you saying that perhaps a buff is not able to hold its own in doing what is expected of it?

If you knew anything at all about the breed standards you are talking about, you would know that Tollers were originally bred to resemble foxes as that is the colour that ducks are most attracted to when be lured in closer to shore.

So no, the buff colour can not perform its original function.

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

um suicidal ducks maybe?

[Sheridan]

This looks (to me) like a wheaten kerry blue terrier.

What do you think?

It's a "kerry blonde" That is mismarked kerry not a wheaten. In fact, if you look at the wheaten head it's more irish terrier than kerry. I've posted that before along with pictures of black and tan kerries, tri-colour kerries. The irish, wheaten and kerry are closely related, of course.

There are a number of mismarked kerries and there's a very good article from Dr Neil O'Sullivan (a geneticist and himself a wheaten breeder) about the genetics of kerries and wheatens (can't find the link). Wheatens are actually genetically sable (hence the brown and black colour they're born with) and only one gene turns them wheaten. It's like having a different dog each month until they're around 18 months to two years.

[Moselle]

Ditto Rysup!

Chocolate TTs are gorgeous but excluded because the Tibetans found that choc-born pups died young so it was essentially "bad luck" to have a chocolate and exceptionally good luck to have a white Tibetan Terrier 'cos they generally have great black pigment which makes them less susceptible to skin cancer. :D Chocolates died young because they had lighter than usual pigment and got skin cancer - the Tibetans didn't know it of course but their assumptions were pretty smack on with genetics - simple really!

Chocolate don't die now as we know about sunscreen!

how odd, my brothers first dog was a chocolate and tan chi. he died aged 16 with no cancers whatever and he was always outside as he just couldnt resist marking in the house. so mum gave him the boot, no more housedog for him

My chihuahua was a blue with some light tan markings, he lived to the ripe old age of 19. No skin issues whatsoever. A neighbour owns a choccie tibby, now 14 years old....strong as an ox and still going strong.

[poodlefan]

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

So we toss out the coat type, the mouth shape, the temperament, the trainability and any other feature important to duck hunting because its illegal in some States?

Get real Moselle. If you don't care about original function why bother with breeds at all. Or is that the point you're trying to make?

Edited November 10, 2010 by poodlefan

[Moselle]

Once upon a time when standards were set it was basically a case of a handful of people stating their own colour preferences and so originated what colours would be accepted and others disqualified. Time has passed and it is a shame that the preferences of those individuals still have to be upheld....time to move on and I am sure that quite a few people would agree. There are such beautiful dogs in both type and conformation but simply because they are born of a colour that is not standard approved they are frowned upon.....

Things have changed over the decades....so what's the hold up? lol

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job.

I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR.

You are entitled to hold onto that opinion but could it be that perhaps you got so used to seeing reddy orange tollers that any other colour doesn't seem "real" or should I say perhaps does not appear to be purebred even though you know they are ??? Perhaps it is a case of being set in one's ways and becoming accustomed to a particular look.

Are you saying that perhaps a buff is not able to hold its own in doing what is expected of it?

If you knew anything at all about the breed standards you are talking about, you would know that Tollers were originally bred to resemble foxes as that is the colour that ducks are most attracted to when be lured in closer to shore.

So no, the buff colour can not perform its original function.

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

um suicidal ducks maybe?

[felix]

It's a "kerry blonde" That is mismarked kerry not a wheaten. In fact, if you look at the wheaten head it's more irish terrier than kerry. I've posted that before along with pictures of black and tan kerries, tri-colour kerries. The irish, wheaten and kerry are closely related, of course.

There are a number of mismarked kerries and there's a very good article from Dr Neil O'Sullivan (a geneticist and himself a wheaten breeder) about the genetics of kerries and wheatens (can't find the link). Wheatens are actually genetically sable (hence the brown and black colour they're born with) and only one gene turns them wheaten. It's like having a different dog each month until they're around 18 months to two years.

I knew you would know this. :D

Wheaten in my post was actually a reference to that specific colour, I knew they were kerry blues.

I must admit I like them.

[Moselle]

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

So we toss out the coat type, the mouth shape, the temperament and any other feature important to duck hunting because its illegal in some States?

Get real Moselle. If you don't care about original function why bother with breeds at all. Or is that the point you're trying to make?

NO WAY...me said nothing about tossing out mouth shape, temperament or other important feature...just coat colour and only because in my case I don't give two flying fruits about the hunting part of things. I own a border collie and a golden retriever, I obtained them because I love the breed....I never had intentions to use my border collie to herd sheep or my GR to chase after shot ducks! AND you know what? I really don't think they miss not having done any of that. Their tail never ceases to wag.

[Sayreovi]

Once upon a time when standards were set it was basically a case of a handful of people stating their own colour preferences and so originated what colours would be accepted and others disqualified. Time has passed and it is a shame that the preferences of those individuals still have to be upheld....time to move on and I am sure that quite a few people would agree. There are such beautiful dogs in both type and conformation but simply because they are born of a colour that is not standard approved they are frowned upon.....

Things have changed over the decades....so what's the hold up? lol

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job.

I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR.

You are entitled to hold onto that opinion but could it be that perhaps you got so used to seeing reddy orange tollers that any other colour doesn't seem "real" or should I say perhaps does not appear to be purebred even though you know they are ??? Perhaps it is a case of being set in one's ways and becoming accustomed to a particular look.

Are you saying that perhaps a buff is not able to hold its own in doing what is expected of it?

If you knew anything at all about the breed standards you are talking about, you would know that Tollers were originally bred to resemble foxes as that is the colour that ducks are most attracted to when be lured in closer to shore.

So no, the buff colour can not perform its original function.

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

I am not into duck hunting, not enough time in the world, but I am into retaining the breeds hallmark features and its history.

Given that majority of Toller owners over in the USA and Canada still hunting with their Tollers, then colour is still important.

Basically, foxes will play around by the shore by frolicking and jumping in and out of hiding. A ducks natural curiosity takes over and comes closer and closer to the fox which eventually is close enough to grab one, there has been speculation as why they do it, but it came clear that they were attracted to reddy orange dog with white flashing feet/tail tip/face markings. There have been reports of hunters with Tollers having ducks get out of the water and basically follow the dog around.

The only other breed with a similar function, the Kooikerhondji is also red and white. Coincidence? That the two breeds of dogs with similar functions are the same colours just slightly different markings?

[wuffles]

how odd, my brothers first dog was a chocolate and tan chi. he died aged 16 with no cancers whatever and he was always outside as he just couldnt resist marking in the house. so mum gave him the boot, no more housedog for him

And my Aussie isn't deaf or blind even though she has a white head. But the fact remains that a lot of Aussies with a white head ARE deaf or blind, so it would be stupid to take the risk of breeding any Aussie with excessive white

[Sayreovi]

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

So we toss out the coat type, the mouth shape, the temperament and any other feature important to duck hunting because its illegal in some States?

Get real Moselle. If you don't care about original function why bother with breeds at all. Or is that the point you're trying to make?

NO WAY...me said nothing about tossing out mouth shape, temperament or other important feature...just coat colour and only because in my case I don't give two flying fruits about the hunting part of things. I own a border collie and a golden retriever, I obtained them because I love the breed....I never had intentions to use my border collie to herd sheep or my GR to chase after shot ducks! AND you know what? I really don't think they miss not having done any of that. Their tail never ceases to wag.

What if that important feature is it's coat colour?

Does anyone else think it's slightly ironic that you are against duck hunting and yet own a Golden whos primary function was as a retriever of dead ducks?

[poodlefan]

Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore?

So we toss out the coat type, the mouth shape, the temperament and any other feature important to duck hunting because its illegal in some States?

Get real Moselle. If you don't care about original function why bother with breeds at all. Or is that the point you're trying to make?

NO WAY...me said nothing about tossing out mouth shape, temperament or other important feature...just coat colour and only because in my case I don't give two flying fruits about the hunting part of things. I own a border collie and a golden retriever, I obtained them because I love the breed....I never had intentions to use my border collie to herd sheep or my GR to chase after shot ducks! AND you know what? I really don't think they miss not having done any of that. Their tail never ceases to wag.

You loved the breed. So you loved what had been developed and refined by HUNTERS over generations but you don't give a toss about all that now. We can forget about what they found important in a hunting dog.

OK, so that soft mouth and high bite inhibition so important in a dog that retrieves game. That's not necessary anymore. We can lose that. The GR's lovely soft mouth and nature won't be needed by families with kids - they'll just have to take their chances.

These dogs won't be spending all day in the field with strange dogs - so lack of aggression isn't such an issue. We can take our chances with that too.

The biddability and trainability in a dog bred to work all day beside and under the direction of the hunter. We don't need that anymore.

Intelligence? The dogs don't need to work out how to get to game, how to find it and bring it back. So we can have dumber dogs now. So those who seek the breed out for obedience training or because they enjoy an intelligent dog can take their chances too.

That lovely wavey coat that sheds dirt and water? The dog's don't retrieve any ducks now so we can have them with 'incorrect coat'. Fluffy dogs with hard to manage coats will be just fine.

You know Moselle, the more I read of your posts the more I can only conclude that you have no genuine understanding of the purpose of setting and adhering to a breed standard. Sadly there are plenty of breeders who feel as you do and the degeneration of breed features and temperament shows that they don't give a toss about the features that actually made breeds what they are.

Edited November 10, 2010 by poodlefan