Rare Or Disqualifed Colours In Breeds.

[OSoSwift]

So you have the black and tan and red?? But not the brown and tan like in Dobes?? Very interesting. Do they happen often?? I agree with the dilutes. Wish they didn't allow them in Dobes over here.

Very cute little Aussie!

Edited December 19, 2010 by OSoSwift

[angelsun]

I think she's gorgeous, Mum doesn't! Mum's a little worried one might crop up in our litter but it's unlikely from the lines we have.

She is a lovely girl, I think she's gorgeous too. They were parked next to me at a trial when she was a little puppy :D

I have seen some rare colours in Tenties (I believe it was called a dilute fawn?) but can't find any pictures :D

The only colour Manchester Terrier I can find apart from Black & Tan is blue:

There is quite a history to this photo. This blue dog was shown at a specialty in the states BEFORE they changed the standard to read that ONLY Black with Tan/Red markings was the only acceptable colour. The dog was not awarded however could not be disqualified as there was no DQ for colour at that time. It didn't take long for the AMTC to bring in that little blurb. The breeder of this dog did attempt to produce a line for a while and many got onto it right off and soon the line died out (thankfully)

[angelsun]

So you have the black and tan and red?? But not the brown and tan like in Dobes?? Very interesting. Do they happen often?? I agree with the dilutes. Wish they didn't allow them in Dobes over here.

Very cute little Aussie!

Solid red like Min Pins, not the bi colour like Dobes (that call them red) Our breed, brought back from the brink of extinction in the mid 1950's did so by the use of a chocolate/tan min pin named Onzo along with some others.

Introduction of the dilute gene came about ten years later when a red min pin was used again to help build pedigree and poof....fawn came out....we test for dilute now in hopes we don't get them as blues are full of both internalhealth issues and massive coat issues. Fawns are beginning to show a disturbing amount of liver and kidney issues which are fatal.

[bordacollies4me]

here is a Blue Merle Sable Border Collie - not recognised in the breed standard in Aust, but acceptable everywhere else in the world...

ETA: she would be called a Clear Sable... Sables can be from Clear to a Dark Shaded Sable...

Sire is my Choc Merle Tri, mother was a Black/White

as a puppy

12 months old

These next 2 are also sired by my Choc Merle Tri

a Blue Merle BC -Litter mate to the Merle Sable -- accepted in the Standard

a Blue Merle Tri that is not recognised in the standard... (mother is my Black/White Girl) but acceptable everywhere else in the world...

Edited December 23, 2010 by bordacollies4me

[angelsun]

I have two unusual coloured greyhounds. Woody is solid Dun, and Coconut is White and Dun Brindle.

Only around one in every three thousand greyhounds born is dun, and it is an allowable colour.

Dun isn't so much a colour, but a gene that turns black hair into brown, similar to the dilution gene that gives you a blue dog, but different. I suspect that Woody also might have that dilution gene as well as the Dun gene, as he is such a washed out colour.

Coco's brown markings are a rich chocolate brindle stripe over fawn. She is mostly white with brown ticking. Her nose is a plum brown sort of colour. Woody is a dusky taupe, with a slightly darker nose. Both have brown lips, and no black pigment. His coat is a bit like a weim and a bit like a brown kelpie.

I have been meaning to ask about your Greys Greytmate, they are stunning .

My contribution is dapple Daschunds.....

They arnt rare, and u can show dapples..

Double Dapples are more uncommon and now not acceptable in the USA which in my opinion is a shame.

[angelsun]

Did I not also say that a dog should retain the very traits they were originally bred for? As I said, there are alot of people who would love for certain colours to be allowed in their breed of dog....and if colour takes away from what a dog was originally bred for...well, that comes down to what the person expects of that dog....if you, for instance, do not intend to take your dog hunting, then you are not going to be too concerned if other colours are allowed in the standard? People who want to use their dog for a particular reason can simply stick to the colours that work best. It should be a personal decision....maybe introduce another standard which allows for other colours to be shown in a class amongst themselves instead of disqualifying them altogether. The only difference would be in the colouring not the traits of the dog.

Do you not get that some breeds colour IS one trait of the dog?

I hope that people like you stay out of my breed, so it can continue to function the way it has for many many years and there is no chance of people trying to make a quick buck by basterdising the breed with inferior quality dogs of disqualified colours.

A disqualified colour does not make for an "inferior" dog and it is certainly not a "bastard" either. It's the same in GSD where the occasional white pup appears, most breeders would baulk at that and perhaps opt to cull it but at the end of the day it is still very much a GSD with the same traits and temperament and guard dog abilities as your typical black and tan, for example. That is what I am trying to say....dogs of a disqualified colour can still 'FUNCTION'....THEY may not attract ducks (STILL not convinced of that one, lol) in the case of tollers but for those not interested in that field what does it matter if ducks are not going to take solace in red tollers?

I beleive Von Stephanitz stated "there was no wrong colour GSD" It's the breed fancy that determines the acceptable colours and usually comes up with a reason for them.

Yes the Toller of another colour could RETRIEVE them, and would do so with gusto, however what has been stated is true. The "little river duck dog" as it is also known was bred specifically as a lure in colour and actions, much like a fishermans lure. Lets face it, a plain worm will catch a fish, but a lure specifically designed to attract specific fish works much better, and this is in effect what the Toller is in all sense of the word. Although they make a great pet, the breed primarily is used for what it was designed for, and the bright red with white markings are in fact a hallmark of the breed. To lose this, would be to lose the essence of the breed. To the uninformed, colour may see inconsequential, but to the breed fancy, who have taken the time to learn the breed history and why it is what it is, they appreciate the strict guidelines often put in place for something as simple as colour, to keep the breed as it was intended when developed.

We see the black sammy for example, but although it's interesting, it's not desired for many reasons...remember where this dog lived/lives? Sure a black one can pull a sled, warm its master and check for cracks in the ice with its sensitive feet.....but the white fur was selected for a purpose. The same with the Westies when the white coats helped keep these small hunters from accidently being shot because they blended into the terrain like their beige and brindle relatives the Cairn.

I used to get into great discussions with Manchester breeders that dismissed the lack of thumbprints as an issue, stating it was only one simple thing and just not important....they are wrong in my opinion. That little black smudge on the front of the wrist, labelled a hallmark of the breed, defines them as a breed and separates them from being just another generic black and tan sleek small dog. For the Min Pin, to have thumbprints is a fault (DQ? not sure on that one)

As for other oddities, anyone got a photo of a sable headed white collie rough? Highly desired in North America but I believe not accepted here? I have friends in the breed working their whole lives to breed them with success. I personally don't care for them but I'm not a collie person either!

I have a friend that bred a lovely little Silky Terrier, normally tan with the steel blue overcoat, this one was red and tan.It's siblings all the normal colour for the breed.

We often are told by those that don't know, that our Sable GSD's are riddled with health issues....this often from the die hard black and tan crowd. But we also know that there is colour paling in Shepherds, as well there is a bright orange where it should be tan or gold.

I've been loving the photos....some great ones I never realized existed! Keep 'em coming!

[pebbles]

Hi, Angelsun, B/T Min. Pins. should have black 'penciling' on their toes. Haven't come across any with a thumb mark but there could be. No DQ's in the Mins, though perhaps there should be! 'True' Hackney action is their distinguishing feature, pity there's not more of it around

Edited December 20, 2010 by pebbles

[angelsun]

Yes the Manchester should have pencilling on the toes as well. As for Hackney....what's up with the FCI where it's not permitted? I have been told this and am shocked as I thought it was the hallmark for the breed?

German Pinschers CAN have pencilling on the toes but it's not really desired and no, we don't want hackney but boy, we have some good ones out there!

[pebbles]

Maybe because the majority haven't got hackney any more. What passes for action on a lot is just exaggerated throwing the legs straight forward (if that makes sense lol). Correct Hackney (or lack thereof) is a sore point with me having been involved with Mins for over 40 years.

[becks]

Hi, Angelsun, B/T Min. Pins. should have black 'penciling' on their toes. Haven't come across any with a thumb mark but there could be. No DQ's in the Mins, though perhaps there should be! 'True' Hackney action is their distinguishing feature, pity there's not more of it around ;)

The Hackney action is mentioned in the UK breed standard, but why is it there when the FCI (and therefor the country who created the breed) don't ask for it? Hackney action isn't seen or wanted in any of the closely related breeds.

[pebbles]

Hackney action isn't just 'mentioned' in the Breed Standard, it's there because it's part of the Breed! I think it's only recently been taken out of the FCI standard (someone will correct me if I'm wrong!). So perhaps ask yourself 'why' it was dropped? If you can get the book "Your Miniature Pinscher" by Buris R. Boshall M.D.(1969) it has a lot of interesting reading including 'Hackney Gait' which under the USA judging scheme is given high points and marked as "Very Important" and also covers Mins. in Sweden, England, Sth Africa, Australia and other countries. There are other breeds which originated from or were an off shoot from the original and have their own particular charactistics - and hackney action belongs to the Miniature Pinschers.

[Mystiqview]

I am unsure if Staffylover has posted a picture of her sable (That I accidently bred)

Sable is recognised in all other countries EXCEPT Australia. They are not rare, but I would guess they are not that common... yet.... (as compared to the other unrecognised colours like Lilac/white, Choc Tri, Blue Tri, Lilac Tri, Choc Merle and merle Tris).

There are some kennels who actively promote the unrecognised colours here in Australia and actively breed for them for the pet market as they generally fetch a higher price than the old fashioned black/white.

[OSoSwift]

Beautiful