Rare Or Disqualifed Colours In Breeds.

[jacqui835]

I was watching Dogs 101 on Animal Planet while I was home sick a while ago - they were saying that Labs come in four colours - yellow, black, chocolate and blue I've never seen a blue lab (and am quite happy to not see one!!) but has anyone ever encountered one before?

I think they are referring to the silver labrador, which is not an acceptable colour but is being bred all the same. Personally I think they're beautiful, not sure if there are any health issues associated or not.

[Remarkabull]

Doesn't look like a pure lab. Maybe cross with a Weim?

[sas]

I was watching Dogs 101 on Animal Planet while I was home sick a while ago - they were saying that Labs come in four colours - yellow, black, chocolate and blue I've never seen a blue lab (and am quite happy to not see one!!) but has anyone ever encountered one before?

I think they are referring to the silver labrador, which is not an acceptable colour but is being bred all the same. Personally I think they're beautiful, not sure if there are any health issues associated or not.

I think there's been doubt since they arrose if they were infact pure....they don't look it.

[macka]

Silver "labs" are weim crosses.

[ash&elar]

Silver "labs" are weim crosses.

x1 Havent seen one yet that looks pure to me.

[Toohey]

Sources, please. Black is the dominant colour in Labs. I have never heard that they are prone to bone or hamangiosarcoma cancers.

I have seen studies saying that golden Cockers are more aggressive than other colours.

Sources please?

This is mostly myth, caused by the fact that gold/goldens cockers were a popular colour back in the 70's and 80's, and everyone jumped on board breeding them, in particular back yarders, who in turn sell to people who have no idea how to handle and raise them.

[RallyValley]

Sorry to rain on the parade but is is genetically possible for Labs to come in silver, look at Chessies colours they are brown and all it's dilutions (from the darkest ebony brown to the lightest ash). Ash/silver is a dilution of brown and natural for brown pigmented dogs with dilution genes.

[sas]

Sources, please. Black is the dominant colour in Labs. I have never heard that they are prone to bone or hamangiosarcoma cancers.

I have seen studies saying that golden Cockers are more aggressive than other colours.

Sources please?

This is mostly myth, caused by the fact that gold/goldens cockers were a popular colour back in the 70's and 80's, and everyone jumped on board breeding them, in particular back yarders, who in turn sell to people who have no idea how to handle and raise them.

Or bad temperament ones were bred and you end up with a whole colour where many are poorily temperamented dogs.

I always find it so interesting that blame is always put on the handling and raising - there's a much bigger picture. If a whole 'Colour'/Breed has a problem (large % of them) you can't keep sticking your head in the sand (not that I'm saying YOU are).

I've also read about the Cockers, I think it was actually in Dr Temple Grandins book.

Edited November 5, 2010 by sas

[pixie_meg]

This is very true E^G was recently described in Salukis and Afghan Hounds- this allele is from the Extension (E locus). They call the phenotype related to this allele combination (a^t/at with E^G)grizzle (in the paper atleast). The paper is Dreger and Schmutz (2010) A New Mutation in MC1R Explains a Coat Color Phenotype in 2 "old" Breeds: Saluki and Afghan Hound. Journal of Heredity doi:10.1093/jhered/esq061 if anyone is interested.

To me sable is more of a gray wolf colour (i.e. the wild type agouti pattern) with either mixed black and yellow/red hairs or banded black and red/yellow hairs. There seems to be a practice of calling very different colour patterns by the same name - this makes it confusing as often they are each caused by different genes, alleles or combinations of alleles.

The allele is possibly the same if Saluki's and Borzoi's are closely related breeds or have common heritage.

Yes, the inconsistency in naming is a major issue for the lay person trying to get their head around it for a breed with a wide range of colours and patterns.

In Borzoi sable often used to be called tortoiseshell, and although incorrect that was more descriptive of what it looks like. It also has a charateristic facial pattern with a'widows peak' of colour - very like domino and grizzle.

To make it worse, official colour lists like that of the AKC in the US list "sabled" red (or cream or gold etc) and red (or whatever) "sable" as two different but legitimate colours, and I still can't figure out if they are genetically different ("sabled red" ay, at and "red sable" at, at with eG). Depends entirely on who you read - talk about confusing!

If When I win lotto I'll fund the research to map it out properly! if you can recommend any up to date texts on colour genetics let me know, all the stuff I read 20 years ago seems to have been proved wrong or very incomplete since.

This site has me confused about colour.

http://borzoi-color.batw.net/quick_color.html

My boy is a blue sable but going by that sites chart he'd be classed as a gold sable because of the gold undertones. I'm very interested in this too Diva.

[Aziah]

Collie gone wrong?!

* no disrepsect meant

The white blaze/head made me feel that way!

Edited November 5, 2010 by Aziah

[Diva]

Collie gone wrong?!

* no disrepsect meant

No offence taken - I often get told my red sable (or sabled red) bitch is a collie.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Diva

[Greytmate]

Sorry to rain on the parade but is is genetically possible for Labs to come in silver, look at Chessies colours they are brown and all it's dilutions (from the darkest ebony brown to the lightest ash). Ash/silver is a dilution of brown and natural for brown pigmented dogs with dilution genes.

Interesting.

Those labs are exactly the colour of Woody.

The gene that gives both labs and greyhounds the brown pigment is a recessive that modifies black. Earlier in the thread I thought that Woody may also have the dilution gene (that turns black dogs blue), but now (after reading this thread and all the links) I think it might actually be the chinchilla gene that has washed his colour from chocolate to taupe.

If that is the case, then given that both the chinchilla gene and the brown gene are in labs, I guess that those silver labs could be pure. However they would have very limited selection in breeding stock if they were breeding for colour, instead of being able to breed for best conformation, so that is why they don't look like labs much. Good example of how type can deteriorate so much when you do breed for 'rare' colour.

[aussielover]

I was watching Dogs 101 on Animal Planet while I was home sick a while ago - they were saying that Labs come in four colours - yellow, black, chocolate and blue I've never seen a blue lab (and am quite happy to not see one!!) but has anyone ever encountered one before?

I think they are referring to the silver labrador, which is not an acceptable colour but is being bred all the same. Personally I think they're beautiful, not sure if there are any health issues associated or not.

There is some debate as to whether "Silver" labs are actually just a dilute chocolate. Technically, it is possible that a very small percentage are, however, most of the Silvers out there are just weim crosses and look it.

The one pictured in this thread totally looks like a weim cross imo.

This one looks more "purebred" to me but who knows...

[Lhok]

My favourite coat colour Harlequin in Beaucerons It is approved of in the standard so long as the dog displays the red stockings and face markings.

--Lhok

[espinay2]

There are 2 types of Solid Black controlled by 2 different genes

There are also multiple genes/alelles for white. All whites are not created equal: White Colour Genetics

[RallyValley]

With the Ash in Chessies, it does pop up, you can show it HOWEVER almost all ash Chessies are neutered and hunt or pet homed, the REALLY exceptional ones are ONLY bred to darker dogs as breeding two ash coloured Chessies would result in a loss of pigment in the eyes- 1st gen ash Chessies will still have yellow or amber eyes, when they breed two ash dogs it goes that light blue/clear sort of colour and is no longer breeding to standard.

[Bullbreedlover]

I just adore the Exhibitor Breed Standard - with permission I would like to print it in our next club newsletter

Fine with me

I was able to reprint it.

I cant find the judges one. I know there is one around somewhere.

Maybe it is a very rare breed one now :D

[SilverHaze]

Just quickly off the topic of Samoyeds for a second ;)

For 38 years I have wanted a HEALTHY SHOW QUALITY white Sibe :D :D

I think they are just devine .......................... don't quite like my chances of ever having one ;)

I'll let you know if we ever breed one - lots of white dogs behind ours. But to date we are cursed and have only managed to breed black and white ones ;)

I'm really lusting to have a lovely show quality piebald!

Edited November 5, 2010 by SilverHaze

[SilverHaze]

And to keep you dreaming - here is one of the top winning sibes in the US over the past couple of years -

BISS Ch. Alpine's Carte Blanche WPD

Or i could very well have the opposite - a black Siberian

Edited November 5, 2010 by SilverHaze

[MalteseLuna]

Sorry to rain on the parade but is is genetically possible for Labs to come in silver, look at Chessies colours they are brown and all it's dilutions (from the darkest ebony brown to the lightest ash). Ash/silver is a dilution of brown and natural for brown pigmented dogs with dilution genes. ;)

mmmm not really I don't think - yes they might both be caused by dilutions but this doesn't mean it's (1) the same allele causing the colour or (2) the same gene causing the dilution.

The dog pictured looks like a cross to me - very wei-like in the face.

There are also multiple genes/alelles for white. All whites are not created equal: White Colour Genetics

Yup - I know as I have genotyped my Maltese in part of some of my research I use her as a control or comparison ;) She is aw or at at Agouti, kyky at the K (dominant black) locus and ee at the MC1R or Extension locus - similar to a white Samoyed.

Edited November 5, 2010 by MalteseLuna