Rare Or Disqualifed Colours In Breeds.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Sable is allowed in the UK BC standard. I am also looking at a print I have that is obviously a sable border collie that was painted in the 1800s! The Australian BC standard doesn't make much sense genetically.

With white dogs and deafness it is not the coat colour that is the problem with deafness it is the lack of pigmentation in the skin. If the inner ears have no pigmentation it can result in a deaf pup.

ty i dint know this

[Aziah]

Got a pic of the sable American Cocker Ellz?

Sable Pembrokes can be very beautiful, but alas, they aren't very common...one day I'd love another

Here is my old boys' sire 'Travis'...his mother was only a very lightly shaded sable bitch (her mother had very rich colouring like Travis).

He was darker than this photo shows, too much sun!

[Janba]

Sable is allowed in the UK BC standard. I am also looking at a print I have that is obviously a sable border collie that was painted in the 1800s! The Australian BC standard doesn't make much sense genetically.

With white dogs and deafness it is not the coat colour that is the problem with deafness it is the lack of pigmentation in the skin. If the inner ears have no pigmentation it can result in a deaf pup.

Sable is very common in the working BCs that our show lines were developed from as well as the working dogs in other countries. The colour that is rare to non existent in the ISDS and ABCA is the ee red. That seems to have been introduced into the Australian working dogs from somewhere else.

[Staranais]

Sorry, a little off topic, but wanted to ask does anyone have any studies etc showing that black & tan dogs actually are more prone to parvo?

To clarify, I know there are several black and tan breeds that are particularly prone to parvo. But are these black and tan dogs prone to parvo because they're black and tan? Or do most of the breeds that are susceptible to parvo just happen to be black and tan?

e.g, are B&T staffords, pitties or GSD more susceptible to parvo than solid coloured dogs from the same lines or same breed?

If anyone has any evidence that b&t dogs are more prone to parvo than non b&t dogs within the same lines or breed, would they please share?

Thanks.

[julzjc]

I saw this on wiki a while ago.

Blue Merle Pomeranian

Stunning! Exactly why they should be desexed though because if Joe public saw that dog you can guarantee that it would become the new "it" dog to own. Ofcourse it would only cost you around $20,000 AUD. Heck, Im pretty clued up on colour genetics thanks to you guys and even I am absolutly in love with it!

Edited November 4, 2010 by julzjc

[Bilbo Baggins]

Yes I would rather paediatric desex which I disagree with rather that kill an otherwise healthy pup.

I think it really does depend upon breed and colour. The puppy might well be healthy in the nest but that doesn't mean to say it will stay that way. And I'd rather take a gamble and cull a puppy than end up with the next Greyshaft on my doorstep.

That would really just be my luck!

ellz I was thinking more of my breed cavs. A common problem is clown face in a blenheim, that is no red around the eyes, or no blaze in a tri colour or too much white on a black and tan or ruby.

[Jumabaar]

Sorry, a little off topic, but wanted to ask does anyone have any studies etc showing that black & tan dogs actually are more prone to parvo?

To clarify, I know there are several black and tan breeds that are particularly prone to parvo. But are these black and tan dogs prone to parvo because they're black and tan? Or do most of the breeds that are susceptible to parvo just happen to be black and tan?

e.g, are B&T staffords, pitties or GSD more susceptible to parvo than solid coloured dogs from the same lines or same breed?

If anyone has any evidence that b&t dogs are more prone to parvo than non b&t dogs within the same lines or breed, would they please share?

Thanks.

+1!!! I have heard the same thing but can't find any information on it. I have not heard of it really in black and tan kelpies, or lapphunds.

[julzjc]

Sable is allowed in the UK BC standard. I am also looking at a print I have that is obviously a sable border collie that was painted in the 1800s! The Australian BC standard doesn't make much sense genetically.

With white dogs and deafness it is not the coat colour that is the problem with deafness it is the lack of pigmentation in the skin. If the inner ears have no pigmentation it can result in a deaf pup.

I never knew that was the reason for deafness in white animals, thankyou JP.

[ellz]

Sorry, a little off topic, but wanted to ask does anyone have any studies etc showing that black & tan dogs actually are more prone to parvo?

To clarify, I know there are several black and tan breeds that are particularly prone to parvo. But are these black and tan dogs prone to parvo because they're black and tan? Or do most of the breeds that are susceptible to parvo just happen to be black and tan?

e.g, are B&T staffords, pitties or GSD more susceptible to parvo than solid coloured dogs from the same lines or same breed?

If anyone has any evidence that b&t dogs are more prone to parvo than non b&t dogs within the same lines or breed, would they please share?

Thanks.

Nothing scientific to offer but my litter of American Cocker puppies had 3 Black/Tan puppies and 2 Black puppies (out of a black bitch with black/tan parents and a black/white dog with one tricoloured parent). The 3 B/T puppies got parvo, the blacks got seedy but not actually sick. The blacks were titre tested a few years later and showed good immunity to parvo, 2 of the B/Ts never showed any form of immunity. Only anecdotal but interesting nonetheless.

Never had any experience with Staffords getting parvo but did have a Rottweiler with parvo many years ago. My first experience at dog ownership as an adult on my own and what an experience that one turned out to be.

[ellz]

Yes I would rather paediatric desex which I disagree with rather that kill an otherwise healthy pup.

I think it really does depend upon breed and colour. The puppy might well be healthy in the nest but that doesn't mean to say it will stay that way. And I'd rather take a gamble and cull a puppy than end up with the next Greyshaft on my doorstep.

That would really just be my luck!

ellz I was thinking more of my breed cavs. A common problem is clown face in a blenheim, that is no red around the eyes, or no blaze in a tri colour or too much white on a black and tan or ruby.

I wouldn't worry too much about the tri or the black and tan or ruby, but not having pigmentation around the eyes could increase the risk of sunburn. That would worry me. I've had such concerns in the past with parti Americans.

[Staranais]

Nothing scientific to offer but my litter of American Cocker puppies had 3 Black/Tan puppies and 2 Black puppies (out of a black bitch with black/tan parents and a black/white dog with one tricoloured parent). The 3 B/T puppies got parvo, the blacks got seedy but not actually sick. The blacks were titre tested a few years later and showed good immunity to parvo, 2 of the B/Ts never showed any form of immunity. Only anecdotal but interesting nonetheless.

Very interesting, thanks Ellz!

[MalteseLuna]

Sorry, a little off topic, but wanted to ask does anyone have any studies etc showing that black & tan dogs actually are more prone to parvo?

To clarify, I know there are several black and tan breeds that are particularly prone to parvo. But are these black and tan dogs prone to parvo because they're black and tan? Or do most of the breeds that are susceptible to parvo just happen to be black and tan?

e.g, are B&T staffords, pitties or GSD more susceptible to parvo than solid coloured dogs from the same lines or same breed?

If anyone has any evidence that b&t dogs are more prone to parvo than non b&t dogs within the same lines or breed, would they please share?

Thanks.

I don't think the GSD saddle pattern is caused by the same allele as black with tan point (B and T Staffords).

Wanted to say that often very similar phenotypes i.e. 'solid White' can be caused by different genes.

For example my Maltese which I have colour genotyped at MC1R (E locus) CBD103 (K locus) and Agouti (A locus) is solid white because of:

Double recessive ee at MC1R - same genotype which causes white in Samoyed. She also carries the Aw or At allele so if she wasn't white (ee) she might have been wolf sable or black and tan At the moment black-and-tan (at) and wolf sable (aw) alleles are indistinguishable at a DNA level - or atleast undefined.

ee also causes the yellow colour in Labradors

White could also be caused by MITF (spotting gene) or Chinchilla (which hasn't been found at a genetic level yet).

Edited November 4, 2010 by MalteseLuna

[t-time]

Colours in Breed Standards and disqualifications, usually have a reason be it an historical reason or a genetic reason.

Some standards *are* out of date when it comes to the crossover - for example, the vast majority of Labrador breeders are not going to euthanase a pup because it's a colour throwback - it's not PC now - but in years gone by - not forgetting that Labradors are quite a "new" breed in the general scheme of things - the off-coloured pups would have been culled as utterly useless to a breeding programme and Labs were working dogs. From all accounts, this nearly happened with chocolates in the breed! These days wrong coloured dogs are excluded from the show ring - big deal - they can still be pets and it's total sensationalism to say that a Lab breeder these days is going to bucket a pup which is the wrong colour.

Just an example where the difference in colour is not going to affect the health of the dog long-term in this day and age.

However, there are breeds where a particular colour can be fatal or at least debilitating to a dog in future - so why is this thread getting out of hand?

All of a sudden in this thread, Breeders are all being made out to be culling wrong-coloured pups - it USED to happen frequently but these days, the vast majority of wrong-coloured pups are simply excluded from the showring, undesirable to breed from and are petted out to new owners like some mentioned here already, who love their dogs regardless!

So can we please get back on topic and look at all the pretty pictures of weird coloured dogs!!

[JulesP]

I guess if people learn something from all this then that is a good thing.

The saddlepoint pattern (as) is a different gene from the black & tan (at). Interestingly Amber has a different sable gene (ay) to the gorgeous sable husky (aw).

[Bilbo Baggins]

I guess Amber should have been bopped on the head then

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm its a puppy.

What breed???

[Little Gifts]

Disqualify colours in French Bulldogs, much the same as Staffords.

Some of these colours are fetching $20000 + in the states.

Blue

Leanne

Ozstar is the blue in frenchies a health issue like in staffies? This fella is a real cutie but I'd hate to think he might have health risks associated with his prettiness.

[JulesP]

What breed???

Border Collie

[KumaAkita]

Colours in Breed Standards and disqualifications, usually have a reason be it an historical reason or a genetic reason.

Some standards *are* out of date when it comes to the crossover - for example, the vast majority of Labrador breeders are not going to euthanase a pup because it's a colour throwback - it's not PC now - but in years gone by - not forgetting that Labradors are quite a "new" breed in the general scheme of things - the off-coloured pups would have been culled as utterly useless to a breeding programme and Labs were working dogs. From all accounts, this nearly happened with chocolates in the breed! These days wrong coloured dogs are excluded from the show ring - big deal - they can still be pets and it's total sensationalism to say that a Lab breeder these days is going to bucket a pup which is the wrong colour.

Just an example where the difference in colour is not going to affect the health of the dog long-term in this day and age.

However, there are breeds where a particular colour can be fatal or at least debilitating to a dog in future - so why is this thread getting out of hand?

All of a sudden in this thread, Breeders are all being made out to be culling wrong-coloured pups - it USED to happen frequently but these days, the vast majority of wrong-coloured pups are simply excluded from the showring, undesirable to breed from and are petted out to new owners like some mentioned here already, who love their dogs regardless!

So can we please get back on topic and look at all the pretty pictures of weird coloured dogs!!

Thanks T-Time, you answered the question I was about to ask. I would have thought that euthanisation would be for those where the colour could lead to ill-health, not necessarily because it isn't "standard"

[lappiemum]

Sorry, a little off topic, but wanted to ask does anyone have any studies etc showing that black & tan dogs actually are more prone to parvo?

To clarify, I know there are several black and tan breeds that are particularly prone to parvo. But are these black and tan dogs prone to parvo because they're black and tan? Or do most of the breeds that are susceptible to parvo just happen to be black and tan?

e.g, are B&T staffords, pitties or GSD more susceptible to parvo than solid coloured dogs from the same lines or same breed?

If anyone has any evidence that b&t dogs are more prone to parvo than non b&t dogs within the same lines or breed, would they please share?

Thanks.

+1!!! I have heard the same thing but can't find any information on it. I have not heard of it really in black and tan kelpies, or lapphunds.

From an article on Finnish Lapphund Colour and Patterns by Liisa Sarakontu, who has written a bit on colour genetics.

Finnish Lapphund is one of the most colorful breeds in the world. Just a few other breeds like Saluki, Pomeranian and Border Collie have about as many possible colors and patterns, and probably only Chihuahua has even more. The majority of all known canine colors and patterns is found in Finnish Lapphunds, often as several slightly different versions. Out of the most important colors, just merle (M locus) and silver (G locus) are missing totally.

This great amount of colors is a richness, which has increased the popularity of the breed. Although the breed standard disallows a couple of colors, no colors in this breed have been this far associated with any defects. Blue Lapponian Herders have the CDA syndrome, but it hasn’t yet been found in Finnish Lapphunds. So there is no reason to try to avoid even the rarest colors. Breeding for color, i.e. favoring or avoiding certain colors, isn’t good for any breed. I hope that no Finnish Lapphund breeder starts favoring a certain color, because that makes it harder to pay enough attention to more important traits in a dog.

The blue in Lappies is a dillution of the black and as such there is no merle. Even though one of my girls has 'silvering' in her coat, its not true silver and is just white coming through.

I am not aware of black and tan Lappies being more suceptable to diseases such as parvo, or any other problems as a result of their colouring. Given that the black and tan combination is actually the most genetically dominant of Finnish Lapphund colours, I would be surprised if it was more prone to disease than other colours.

[Rysup]

Well Keeshonds are supposedly only grey because one of the original importers of the breed into the UK from Germany/Holland, decided so. There was no reason other than personal preference.

But I have never personally seen a differently coloured Kees. One of my mentors had some black puppies, back before I was even born, but thats all I have heard of in this country.

I would never PTS if I did have, I would probably want to keep it! They are so pretty! It gets pretty boring when you dont get colour variations in a breed! LOL

Edit - Lhasa Apsos come in any colour you can think of. Only liver and blue are not acceptable due to non-black pigment.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Rysup