Giving The Right Amount Of Information

[corvus]

What do you do when someone asks you for advice about training their dog and you immediately realise that they are really nowhere near ready for the full story and probably never will be? If you give them too much information you risk them dumping it then and there in the too hard basket, but if you don't give them enough, their chances of success with what you might want to suggest kinda drops once the variables of the individual animal come into play. I was talking to a behaviourist about this on the weekend. They said they stick to "reward what you want and ignore what you don't want". I tend to try to encourage people to also look for behaviour they like to reward, but am yet to encounter anyone who believes it's a good idea to reward their dog for having all four feet on the ground, for example.

So I'm wondering how other people decide how much information to give out and what they habitually say when people ask for advice when they are really asking for a quick fix?

[angelsun]

There are many out there that beleive if the dog simply stands there, it's reason enough to reward. Much of this logic escapes me to be honest!

I quickly assess where the people are with their training and give them the information they need to get a positive outcome based on that level (both human and canine) as often we see dogs that are workers but humans that just don't get it. In this case, we train the humans because the dog is usually doing just fine!

One of the other things I always tell people straight up is simply, training isn't a quick fix, it won't happen overnight and training goes on for the life of the dog. I have in the past received many funny looks from this statement, until the people realize that training is ongoing and levels of success take time. The problems usually don't happen overnight so they can't be fixed 100% overnight either.

[huski]

There are many out there that beleive if the dog simply stands there, it's reason enough to reward. Much of this logic escapes me to be honest!

Well that depends what you are rewarding for, doesn't it? :D I'd reward my dog for simply standing there if I was building a solid SFE, for example. Or rewarding them for not jumping up etc.

[bedazzledx2]

I usually break it down and try to focus on what the person wants from the dog. When it becomes too general (which it usually does) I ask them to pick one thing they want to work on and go from there. Splitting works for people too!!!!

[corvus]

I had someone tell me in mortified tones not to reward their dog when I had just popped her a treat for sitting. A moment earlier she had been trying to nip a chunk out of one of my dogs (who at the time was doing his best to avoid her). I tried to say that this sit on cue was a vast improvement on the behaviour before and we should reward her for doing the right thing and her owner just gave me a disbelieving look. I don't normally reward other people's dogs without checking with them, but given the anti-social behaviour that was going on towards my boys, it seemed like someone had to do something. The owner yelling at her wasn't doing much. I guess the owner was lumping and thinking I was rewarding their dog for biting another dog. They weren't much interested in giving me a chance to explain.

We see a lot of dogs with bad manners at the dog park, particularly when they find out we have treat pouches. We don't reward them as a general rule, but every now and then we get mugged and it seems appropriate to reward them for sitting or even just keeping all four feet on the ground. With the owner's permission in those cases. My dogs would never dream of helping themselves to other people's treat pouches! They know sitting is the best bet. :D

[poodlefan]

We see a lot of dogs with bad manners at the dog park, particularly when they find out we have treat pouches. We don't reward them as a general rule, but every now and then we get mugged and it seems appropriate to reward them for sitting or even just keeping all four feet on the ground. With the owner's permission in those cases. My dogs would never dream of helping themselves to other people's treat pouches! They know sitting is the best bet.

I would never offer food to my dog or any other in the presence of strange dogs. Its begging for a fight. Saw just such an incident at a gathering of Golden Retrievers - owners were in shock that their dogs could behave in such a manner. Its called resource guarding folks and lots of dogs do it. Maybe the mortified owner had a resource guarder - they aint' uncommon. Stupidist person I've seen with treats owned a resource guarder and wondered why his dog got aggro when he tried to feed others! :D

Food, balls - any resource that can be fought over has no place in a pack of dogs.

As for what I tell them - I tell them to take their dogs to training. If they want training advice, that's the best place to get it. Training on the fly is littered with misunderstandings and mishaps. You don't know what they don't know or what they think they know (but don't) so assuming anything can be hazardous.

Edited November 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

Agree with PF. I would never try to train someones dog at a dog park or social gathering & would be very irritated if someone tried to train mine. I also know what I know & feel there are others heaps more experienced to give advice on certain things than I am. I will always recommend a professional for any kind of aggression, even if I have a fair idea of what I think needs to happen.

In answer to your question, in a more formal environment, I tend to break the session into 2.

The first bit is a sit down chat, giving an overall picture, as much as the handler is able to take in. A summary of things we will be working on.

The second bit is a hands on starting a few exercises with the dog, homework is given & phone or email support is available between then & the next meeting.

I like to have a full picture of where I'm heading before I start training anything & think it really helps to progress through stages.

[JulesP]

I don't think Corvus is talking about a instructor situation?? Rather when people ask for advice?

I tend to avoid giving advice to non-dog people. Who knows what they would do with the advice and usually it is pointless as there is so much that would need to change to fix the situation. I usually suggest a dog school or trainer :D

If someone tried to reward or train my dog I would go nuts btw.

[Jumabaar]

I tend to get a lot of these questions- and am heading toward a profession where they will be unavoidable. I generally will recommend OB if it is something simple, or a trainer/behaviouralists if it is a bad problem.

That being said I also go with the reward what you want, ignore what you don't method. Although I usually also give an example so that they can humanize the situation a little more for their dog ie a dog having and accident and being yelled at/chased is equivalent to scoring the wining goal in football game with all the attention the dog receives, so need to make that score happen outside rather than inside. I defiantly try to use the most simple method possible, even if I think there is limited chance of it working- I am more interested in helping the dog out than solving the problem!! I generally also give management advice while they are waiting to see a professional ie- keeping dogs separated if necessary etc which so many Average pet owners don't think about!!

Eta- when it comes to people training my dogs I am more than happy for them to try- I haven't managed to break them yet and If I can't I don't think anyone else could LMAO!!!

Edited November 2, 2010 by ~Woofen~

[JulesP]

You wouldn't care if someone at a dog park asked your dog to sit and then gave it a treat ~Woofen~?

[corvus]

I would never offer food to my dog or any other in the presence of strange dogs. Its begging for a fight.

Food, balls - any resource that can be fought over has no place in a pack of dogs.

Well if you used dog parks, you would be missing a lot of excellent opportunities to reinforce good behaviour. It's not begging for a fight if you have some idea what a dog that is ignoring you looks like. I take food and toys to dog parks every time and do about half my training there. The vast majority of the time we have fun unmolested. It's not hard to magic the toys back into the bag and pull the treat pouch shut and send the boys off to play if a dog that's ringing alarm bells heads towards us. I have seen fights break out over sticks, so I don't kid myself that I can control every potentially valuable resource. I would far rather have the means to reward my dogs well when out and about and risk fights. Given we routinely carry very high value food rewards for recalls and have not yet had a fight break out over them, I think the risk is low. Most dogs don't even realise we have them.

Maybe the mortified owner had a resource guarder - they aint' uncommon.

IME, any dog that hasn't been rewarded much is usually a resource guarder. There was a reason why I wasn't just handing treats out for any and all desirable behaviour. It's a fine line between rewarding a dog starved of rewards and setting the dog up for dangerous frustration, which is why I don't normally reward other people's dogs. It's easy to create a situation where a strange dog starts guarding you from your own dogs, and that's a bit of a slap in the face for most dogs. I wouldn't expect Erik to take it lying down. But when all is said and done, I'd rather walk that line than try to block a dog that's on the attack. I know from experience which one tends to be more effective for me. Even if I'm just buying time, I usually have the OH with me who can take our boys while I keep the strange dog focused until its owner comes to get it.

As for what I tell them - I tell them to take their dogs to training. If they want training advice, that's the best place to get it. Training on the fly is littered with misunderstandings and mishaps. You don't know what they don't know or what they think they know (but don't) so assuming anything can be hazardous.

Sure, but you know someone who might go to training and someone who won't. If they ask me on the fly, I have the chance to help some people and their dogs get on better with each other, but if I tell them to go to training and I know they won't, I've lost whatever chance I may have had. My thought is, I'd rather give them one quick suggestion that may or may not help than fob them off. I can always give a suggestion and THEN tell them to go to training. They won't because if they were prepared for that kind of commitment they wouldn't be asking a near stranger for all-encompassing training tips on the fly in the first place, but it doesn't hurt to say it as an additional for anyone listening in.

[corvus]

If someone tried to reward or train my dog I would go nuts btw.

Ha ha, but I would never in a million years interfere with someone who had even the barest amount of control over their dog. It's none of my business and could easily be seen as quite rude. Sometimes I meet a dog that is just brimming with intelligence and all over the shop just begging for someone to give it 5 minutes. I wouldn't do anything without the owner's permission, though, and usually wouldn't ask purely because I don't want them pestering me. This was kind of an exceptional circumstance. The dog was harassing Erik unpredictably and I was trying to leave the park with him while simultaneously protecting him from further harassment. As long as she was thinking about how to earn rewards she wasn't thinking about chasing Erik. Good for everyone. At least once I had her eager attention the owner finally came and got her. I was just using it as an example of people that have trouble figuring out where a behaviour has started and ended.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Well if you used dog parks, you would be missing a lot of excellent opportunities to reinforce good behaviour.

Why? I still have a voice. I don't have to reward each and every behaviour with a toy or a treat IF there are other dogs close by. I can praise.

Given we routinely carry very high value food rewards for recalls and have not yet had a fight break out over them, I think the risk is low. Most dogs don't even realise we have them.

In which case you aren't creating the situation I warned about.

IME, any dog that hasn't been rewarded much is usually a resource guarder.

That's about as logical as suggesting fat dogs don't resource guard food. I've heard a number of behaviourists comment that they see the behaviour MORE in obese dogs than in dogs that have actually been starved. Its about control, not the reward.

I'd rather walk that line than try to block a dog that's on the attack. I know from experience which one tends to be more effective for me. Even if I'm just buying time, I usually have the OH with me who can take our boys while I keep the strange dog focused until its owner comes to get it.

If a dog is seriously intent on attack, waving food at it won't matter a damn. Sounds to me more that you're controlling the dogs focus more than their intent. You're shifting it from your dogs to you.

Sure, but you know someone who might go to training and someone who won't. If they ask me on the fly, I have the chance to help some people and their dogs get on better with each other, but if I tell them to go to training and I know they won't, I've lost whatever chance I may have had.

Sure, people won't go to training. What makes you think that they'll actually take any notice of the advice you give them either? Many are looking for the miracle tip or tool and sadly that's how the media is shaping them to think. Training a dog takes time and effort. When people put in neither they get a fairly predictable result.

I sincerely hope you manage to give training tips in simple non scientific terms Corvus. Even people who are interested in dog training can glaze over when you give them too much behavioural theory. :D

Edited November 3, 2010 by poodlefan

[Erny]

Something that has been overlooked in regards to the point about not food treating other people's dogs without permission is the fact that some dogs don't cope well with certain foods. They may even have a specific and serious medical condition which precludes them from eating certain foods.

As for giving tips - remember, that's all they should be : a tip. It's about saying "you can try xxx". A tip is not about explaining the underlying reasons nor is it a guarantee that it will work. Just add "there's more to it than that, but it would take time to explain" and if they want to know more, steer them in the direction of an experienced trainer/behaviourist.

The important thing is to know when sometimes a "tip" might not be worked sufficiently properly to be safe. In those cases, it is better off just to advise the trainer/behaviour route and otherwise bite your tongue.

Otherwise, let people know there is more to training than meets the eye, and that to reach the goal they seek is about getting there in incremental levels. Give them short instruction to start them off (they probably won't like it - it will be about taking control by putting their dogs on leads ) and let them know that if they want to work up from there it is a matter of following through with a trainer or that they can perhaps ask you after they've reached an appropriate level by doing the basic work you've suggested.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Erny

[TerraNik]

Agree with PF. I would never try to train someones dog at a dog park or social gathering & would be very irritated if someone tried to train mine.

UGH! I've had someone try to 'train' one of my dogs when she jumped up for the treat the person was trying to give them and then proceeded to try and do the Doggy Zen game with her, essentially trying to undo the training I had done with her to actually jump up FOR her rewards! I was mortified! I would never do that to someone else's dog unless they had asked me to train their dog.

Erny has another good point - my boy who is allergic to chicken has been fed chicken or chicken-based treats WAY too many times for me to remember before I even had a chance to ask what they were doing or what they were about to feed him!

Meanwhile, back on point -

I usually refer them on to an Obedience club if they are wanting help with lots of issues or basic training. If it's something really quick, I don't mind giving them some tips and then refering them on to a club. Like Vickie, if it's something to do with behavioural issues like aggression, I ALWAYS refer them to a behaviourist.

[bedazzledx2]

I hate dog parks with a passion...my local oval has been overtaken with well meaning but essentially canine ignorant people with out of control dogs. I now travel 50 minutes to our Canine centre in order to train/run my dogs in a more controlled setting.

My answer to Corvus was based on my experience of people at Canine asking so they are far more dog savvy than the average Joe Public. I personally know of a couple of dogs who if given the smallest treat containing beef or beef byproduct would be in great discomfort due to allergies so I have been well educated not to treat other dogs without permission first!

[luvsablue]

UGH! I've had someone try to 'train' one of my dogs when she jumped up for the treat the person was trying to give them and then proceeded to try and do the Doggy Zen game with her, essentially trying to undo the training I had done with her to actually jump up FOR her rewards! I was mortified! I would never do that to someone else's dog unless they had asked me to train their dog.

Hi TerraNik,

What's the Doggy Zen game?

luvsablue

[luvsablue]

Yep I hate dog parks too. There are some near me where dogs who go there regularly form packs and run totally out of control. There have been a few attacks by packs on new comers. Very nasty. I travel to places which are not free running areas. At worst they can be dangerous and at best the loose dogs are pests.

luvsablue

[TerraNik]

Hi TerraNik,

What's the Doggy Zen game?

luvsablue

It is an exercise that is supposed to teach the dog self-control and to create a default 'leave it' with food. So essentially holding food out for the dog in a fist, as soon as the dog stops going for it or looks away you reward them.

It goes completely against my training methods where I actively build drive for food and want the dogs to launch towards it. (On a side note, my dogs are extremely well behaved around plated food and I can leave my dinner on the coffee table which is at nose/mouth height for them and they won't touch it, so it's not like they have no food manners!). It just frustrates me that someone thought they had a right to make a judgement on my dog's behaviour and try to "train" her out of it!

Edited November 3, 2010 by TerraNik

[corvus]

This ain't about dog parks or training other people's dogs. It's about what you say to people you meet that don't know much about dogs but ask you on the spot how to fix their dog. I'm a pretty friendly gal. I don't want to fob them off with a "you need professional help" or "take your dog to classes", but obviously I'm not going to explain learning theory to them, either. They just want their dog to do what they tell it to. I'd love to give them something a bit more useful than "be a calm, assertive leader" or some such, but equally easy to remember. The reality is they are not going to take their dog to training or get professional help. I'm not gonna judge them on that and they'll do what they'll do regardless of what I say, but does that mean I shouldn't even try to say something that might help?

The world is full of people that have dogs and adore them but know next to nothing about influencing their behaviour. That's life. I'm happy to leave them be. But if one of them actually specifically asks you for advice, it seems like a good opportunity to say something helpful. I was just wondering if anyone had a catchphrase.