Desexing Before Selling Litter

[Mojopoodle]

Due to a friend breeder being lied to pre-purchase I am now more aware of the risk to the pups of selling a litter on Limited yet the pups still can end up in the wrong hands. How do other breeders work around this, early desexing of the puppies? I will be talking to my vet tomorrow about the desexing but would be very interested in all comments and experiences from other breeders on this topic.

[ellz]

There is published information about the risks of juvenile desexing. There is evidence to show that it may be detrimental to the growth patterns of young dogs due to the influence of hormones on developing bones. Dogs desexed as juveniles in some breeds grew taller and finer in appearance than their sexually mature littermates. I also recall reading somewhere only recently that early desexing has an influence on bone density, possibly leading to a higher risk of fractures in later life.

That said, I know of many breeders now who desex companion puppies routinely. I do not do it myself YET but am seriously considering doing so for future litters. I do sell on a spey/neuter agreement and thus far, possibly because I screen my puppy people so carefully (probably almost pedantically some might say), I have had reasonable success with neutering prior to 12 months of age.

As far as costs are concerned, I would probably slightly raise puppy prices to take desexing into account. One of the major advantages of selling puppies already desexed is that there is absolutely NO doubt of breeder intention and purchasers cannot come back at a later date saying that they didn't understand a spey/neuter agreement.

Of course, the biggest risk of early desexing, especially if you are like some breeders who do not sell puppies to show/breeding homes, is that you run the risk of desexing a top quality puppy that may have ultimately ended up in the ring or in a breeding program making a very positive influence upon the breed. But tha t said, those puppies can still be shown as neuters and obtain a Neuter title. Not every dog that is titled could, or should be bred from so a Neuter title would be a nice compromise in some cases, provided the judges take the Neuter classes as seriously as they should take entire classes.

[Christina]

I desex all before they leave me.

For a toy breed the risks are less & if they grow a bit taller what is half an inch or so on a toy poodle pet.

Yesterday I had mine desexed, vaccinated & microchipped.

Dropped them off at 9am. Collected them at 4pm.

When I got them home it was like nothing had been done to them. I kept them warm in the puppy pen & stopped them running around until this morning. They were going crazy to get out & play as soon as I brought them home.

I would far rather desex & take the small risks than have them end up somewhere awful & bred to death.

This may never happen but once they leave your hands you have no control & may never know. People lie.

My breed is the most misused, due to false claims & popularity among puppy farms & stupid public demand.

You have to weigh up the risks & do what you think is best. This is my decision.

ETA I have had no negative feedback so far of any problems of those that have had this done, in the last 5 years.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Christina

[Borderpower]

I desex all before they leave me.

For a toy breed the risks are less & if they grow a bit taller what is half an inch or so on a toy poodle pet.

Yesterday I had mine desexed, vaccinated & microchipped.

Dropped them off at 9am. Collected them at 4pm.

When I got them home it was like nothing had been done to them. I kept them warm in the puppy pen & stopped them running around until this morning. They were going crazy to get out & play as soon as I brought them home.

I would far rather desex & take the small risks than have them end up somewhere awful & bred to death.

This may never happen but once they leave your hands you have no control & may never know. People lie.

My breed is the most misused, due to false claims & popularity among puppy farms & stupid public demand.

You have to weigh up the risks & do what you think is best. This is my decision.

ETA I have had no negative feedback so far of any problems of those that have had this done, in the last 5 years.

I second this, and I also desexed before leaving me, pretty much the same reasons as Christina.

[*Lolapalooza*]

A vet in SA advocates vasectomy / tubal ligation in 7 week old babies and does it on his own dogs. I am all for this as the surgery is not a major as the full spay neuter and is not reversible as a piece of tubing is removed so even microsurgery could not attach.

Unfortunately the dog still needs to be desexed later on but if the owners are trying to be dishonest they cannot breed from their pet.

I will be doing it on my next litter pets if my girl evvvvver comes ins eason

Vet charges $200 for females and they only need one suture, $150 for males and 2 sutures needed.

[*Lolapalooza*]

I would do early spay neuter if I had a smaller breed but i think large breeds benefit from having the hormones for extra time therefore i am keen on tubal ligation /vasectomy for large breeds.

[Cavalblaze]

I would do early spay neuter if I had a smaller breed but i think large breeds benefit from having the hormones for extra time therefore i am keen on tubal ligation /vasectomy for large breeds.

I offer a cash back on proof of desexing. Buyers are required to provide a vet certificate. A incentive is a good encouragement for them to follow through with the procedure and the bonus is you know when its done and can stop worrying so much. But there is no guarantees, dishonest people could still do wrong thing but we have been bless that our pet owners have all been trustworthy folks.

Personally recommend my buyers to wait till the dog is 6 months old or older till they enter into such procedure.

[Tapferhund]

There is published information about the risks of juvenile desexing. There is evidence to show that it may be detrimental to the growth patterns of young dogs due to the influence of hormones on developing bones. Dogs desexed as juveniles in some breeds grew taller and finer in appearance than their sexually mature littermates. I also recall reading somewhere only recently that early desexing has an influence on bone density, possibly leading to a higher risk of fractures in later life.

I agree Ellz and I have read quite a bit of info on the subject too. There is no way I would desex puppies that young due to all the problems it can create..including five times more likely to suffer certain cancers later on in life. IMO those who do have "babies" desexed are a disgrace and should get out of dogs ! Apart from the known evidence against early desexing......what sort of breeder(person) would see their six,eight or ten week old baby puppies butchered ?

[Christina]

There is published information about the risks of juvenile desexing. There is evidence to show that it may be detrimental to the growth patterns of young dogs due to the influence of hormones on developing bones. Dogs desexed as juveniles in some breeds grew taller and finer in appearance than their sexually mature littermates. I also recall reading somewhere only recently that early desexing has an influence on bone density, possibly leading to a higher risk of fractures in later life.

I agree Ellz and I have read quite a bit of info on the subject too. There is no way I would desex puppies that young due to all the problems it can create..including five times more likely to suffer certain cancers later on in life. IMO those who do have "babies" desexed are a disgrace and should get out of dogs ! Apart from the known evidence against early desexing......what sort of breeder(person) would see their six,eight or ten week old baby puppies butchered ?

You are entitled to your opinion but butchered is not what is done to them.

It is a quick & simple procedure. Is done by a qualified vet. They are under anaesthetic for a very short time & certainly do not suffer the discomfort that older dogs do when desexed. They don't seem to suffer any discomfort.

If people were not dishonest & puppy farms did not flourish maybe it wouldn't be needed.

I do not think I am a disgrace & should get out of dogs. I think I would be a disgrace if I let them go without protecting them & this is the only way.

The pro's & con's are variable. Entire dogs get all sorts wrong with them too, many to do with them not being desexed also

[Tapferhund]

If people were not dishonest & puppy farms did not flourish maybe it wouldn't be needed.

I do not think I am a disgrace & should get out of dogs. I think I would be a disgrace if I let them go without protecting them & this is the only way.

Sorry Christina but that's a crock ! Or am I to conclude that , as a breeder , you don't screen your puppy buyers , sell with contracts and just sell to anyone who turns up wanting a puppy? And what happens if someone who buys one of your puppies..ends up with a little stunner and wants to learn ...become more involved and show or trial their dog? By castrating/speying..you are denying new puppy people from entering into your own hobby..the hobby of dogs. We all started this way..even you (?) and yet you deny anyone that same chance.

Personally I think it is a very selfish attitude and one that doesn't protect puppies from all sorts of other problems when desexed too early. But hey ...as long as they never have a litter of pups ...... :D why worry......

[The Ark]

If people were not dishonest & puppy farms did not flourish maybe it wouldn't be needed.

I do not think I am a disgrace & should get out of dogs. I think I would be a disgrace if I let them go without protecting them & this is the only way.

Sorry Christina but that's a crock ! Or am I to conclude that , as a breeder , you don't screen your puppy buyers , sell with contracts and just sell to anyone who turns up wanting a puppy? And what happens if someone who buys one of your puppies..ends up with a little stunner and wants to learn ...become more involved and show or trial their dog? By castrating/speying..you are denying new puppy people from entering into your own hobby..the hobby of dogs. We all started this way..even you (?) and yet you deny anyone that same chance.

Personally I think it is a very selfish attitude and one that doesn't protect puppies from all sorts of other problems when desexed too early. But hey ...as long as they never have a litter of pups ...... :D why worry......

Wow!

We screened puppy buyers for our very first litter, sold on desexing contracts and were in touch with one particular buyer weekly from before our bitch was mated. She came up to meet the pups when they were 6 weeks old and got to meet all of them, including the one that would probably be hers (and ended up being hers). I have heard from her once since she took him home at 9 weeks - and she has not responded to any contact attempts since, including my requests for confirmation that he has indeed been desexed as per our contract. A desexing contract means stuff all in the long run! I am devastated because short of running police checks I don't know what else I could have done to ensure that this puppy went to a good home. Maybe he has a good home, and maybe he has been desexed - but maybe not, and it is now out of my hands.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

If people were not dishonest & puppy farms did not flourish maybe it wouldn't be needed.

I do not think I am a disgrace & should get out of dogs. I think I would be a disgrace if I let them go without protecting them & this is the only way.

Sorry Christina but that's a crock ! Or am I to conclude that , as a breeder , you don't screen your puppy buyers , sell with contracts and just sell to anyone who turns up wanting a puppy? And what happens if someone who buys one of your puppies..ends up with a little stunner and wants to learn ...become more involved and show or trial their dog? By castrating/speying..you are denying new puppy people from entering into your own hobby..the hobby of dogs. We all started this way..even you (?) and yet you deny anyone that same chance.

Personally I think it is a very selfish attitude and one that doesn't protect puppies from all sorts of other problems when desexed too early. But hey ...as long as they never have a litter of pups ...... :D why worry......

I am anti early (or any really) spay neuter but if I had poodles, I too would consider doing what Christina is doing. Poodles are one of the most abused and sought after dogs when it comes to farming oodles and there are dealers and puppy farmers out there who are very good at impersonating the perfect home. Minis and Toys are also not large breed dogs. Sometimes the choice you have is the least worst of the available options. Poodle breeders are in a particularly difficult situation.

[Mojopoodle]

Thank you foreveryone for your comments, I screen potential buyers very carefully and yes I have Toy Poodles so it is a real concern.

I am very glad to hear that Christina has been early desexing the same breed for many years with no known problems occuring, I have puppies due later in November and I am hoping for a lovely show poodle in the litter (for me), the others will all need good homes.

I will discuss the idea with my vet today and read all the links sent and see what I decide.

Once again thank you all for your comments.

[supercharged]

You can screen till the cows come home and still end up selling to a dodgy person who has made themselves look like a great home.

Well done Christina on what you do with your pups, I have just invested a lot of money into a rare breed and will also be looking into doing the same.

Health issues can arise whether or not you desex, its a bit like the lottery I believe. I am glad to see people are taking puppy farming and the like as a serious threat to our comminity and attempting to reduce the problem rather than turn a blind eye and pretend it can't happen to them.

I used to be a very trusting person until someone abused that trust and used one of my puppies for all the wrong reasons under a desexing agreement.

[ellz]

There is published information about the risks of juvenile desexing. There is evidence to show that it may be detrimental to the growth patterns of young dogs due to the influence of hormones on developing bones. Dogs desexed as juveniles in some breeds grew taller and finer in appearance than their sexually mature littermates. I also recall reading somewhere only recently that early desexing has an influence on bone density, possibly leading to a higher risk of fractures in later life.

I agree Ellz and I have read quite a bit of info on the subject too. There is no way I would desex puppies that young due to all the problems it can create..including five times more likely to suffer certain cancers later on in life. IMO those who do have "babies" desexed are a disgrace and should get out of dogs ! Apart from the known evidence against early desexing......what sort of breeder(person) would see their six,eight or ten week old baby puppies butchered ?

Can I just interject here and reiterate that I don't do it YET, but that I am seriously considering doing so.

Therefore, I really want to separate what you have quoted from my post from what you yourself have said because I really do NOT agree with much of what you have written from the third sentence on. The second sentence, I can accept because that is a real concern but after that, your post really degenerates into little more than an emotive attack on the breeders who have done their own research and are happy with their choice.

[LizT]

I would do early spay neuter if I had a smaller breed but i think large breeds benefit from having the hormones for extra time therefore i am keen on tubal ligation /vasectomy for large breeds.

I offer a cash back on proof of desexing. Buyers are required to provide a vet certificate. A incentive is a good encouragement for them to follow through with the procedure and the bonus is you know when its done and can stop worrying so much. But there is no guarantees, dishonest people could still do wrong thing but we have been bless that our pet owners have all been trustworthy folks.

Personally recommend my buyers to wait till the dog is 6 months old or older till they enter into such procedure.

I've done the same and I have a vet who WONT do infant desexing, I'm also yet to find a Cavalier Breeder who does it.

They are not a fine boned breed and I think it is important that they get closer to sexual maturity.

And also worth thinking about, is the fact that they are desexed ONLY controls what becomes of them as a breeding dog, it does not preclude them from mistreatment, neglect or guarantee they wont end up in a pound or as a Rescue case.

Edited November 6, 2010 by LizT

[*Lolapalooza*]

I dont sell to any random person, they are well and truly vetted... I dont really see that my supporting vasectomy / tubal ligation (not early spay neuter) as a means to protect my pups from people who decide later that they would love to have a litter from their dog has to do with neglect, mistreatment etc. I have a contract for all puppies that states If they cant keep the dog I will take it back any time in its life and this is non negotiable.

The pups have all the hormones they have if entire, the bitches have seasons and the boys are normal 'boys' and both need to be desexed after 12 months as per my contract.

Most good honest people want a lovely healthy puppy, the dishonest people are put off as soon as you mention sterilisation so would drop right off the radar.

I also have me as the second contact on the microchip incase the pup is lost or ends up in the pound.

[*Lolapalooza*]

And also worth thinking about, is the fact that they are desexed ONLY controls what becomes of them as a breeding dog, it does not preclude them from mistreatment, neglect or guarantee they wont end up in a pound or as a Rescue case.

That is actually a quite patronising comment LizT, I go through anngst, sweat and tears with every decision I make with my dogs and the number one thing I am concerned with is...their welfare. Do you seriously think other people dont think/worry about these things????

[Kustali]

Puppy buyers will tell you anything, and even when you think you know them really well, sometimes you really don't.

Limited register is great, but they can still breed the dog/bitch if they want, you would never know about it. At least if they're desexed before they leave you know for a fact they can't breed from them.

It's the breeders decision to do what they think is best for their pups and for their breed.

[LizT]

And also worth thinking about, is the fact that they are desexed ONLY controls what becomes of them as a breeding dog, it does not preclude them from mistreatment, neglect or guarantee they wont end up in a pound or as a Rescue case.

That is actually a quite patronising comment LizT, I go through anngst, sweat and tears with every decision I make with my dogs and the number one thing I am concerned with is...their welfare. Do you seriously think other people dont think/worry about these things????

Sorry, not trying to be patronising, just stating that we cannot control the behaviour of all those who cross our paths, for example I've often seen cases of "very nice people" surrendering their dogs for what to me (IMO) seems a lame reason. I'm not judging them, just stating that their decisions are, exactly that, their decisions and are out of our hands.

I find your vasectomy/tubal ligation to be a possible viable alternative.