Family Members Sorting Out Their Place. How Much Is Too Much?

[melzawelza]

Hey everyone,

So, the recent topics about family members fighting has been really interesting, and I thought i'd ask a similar but different question for discussion.

I'm currently doing the NDTF Cert III (and loving it) and in our most recent block we had a lecture from Dr Robert Holmes which was amazing.

During the lecture he mentioned with family members fighting for rank you either let them have it out and sort it out themselves, or you seperate them permanently. He said us as humans tend to upset the order and that most of the time if you left the dogs to it they'd sort it out.

If a fight happens you punish the lower dog (usually the one worse off in the fight) to reiterate the correct order. Too many people punish the one that seemed to ' start' the fight and thus upsetting the order.

We didn't have time to go further into this, so I wondered what everyone elses opinions are on dogs that are 'fighting' for their place. I think we can all agree that if the dogs are harming each other to the point of vet bills the obvious place is to seperate.

However I think this becomes a bit of a blurry line when it's dogs 'fighting' but not really harming each other to the point of vet bills, just freaking their owners out who are most likely getting in the middle.

At what point do you decide to seperate permanently?

What sort of things would you implement to try and stop them having to fight at all? Do you subscribe to the top dog eating first, getting first access to resources? If you do subscribe to this line of thinking, what if both dogs have always been sleeping on the bed/couches... do you kick both off or just the lower one?

Would you take a different route if they were similar sized dogs to if they were largely different in size or power?

I'm very interested in peoples opinions and experiences in matters like this.... where dogs are fighting but not 'to the death' or really hurting each other hugely. Lots of multiple dog owners on the forum and trainers so i'm hoping it'll be an interesting discussion!

[Greytmate]

However I think this becomes a bit of a blurry line when it's dogs 'fighting' but not really harming each other to the point of vet bills, just freaking their owners out who are most likely getting in the middle.

At what point do you decide to seperate permanently?

Three factors I would take into account would be what the fight was over, whether the underdog was happy to back down quickly and whether the aggressor used minimum force and did not continue to go after a retreating dog.

There may be other things you could do differently before you would need to permanently separate.

[Erny]

If the tiff is not done and dusted in a nanno second, then I stand in. I'm the leader and I won't tolerate OT aggression around me.

[Little Gifts]

My two staffy bitches would fight until someone gave in and unfortunately for one of them to give in it would only be because they were seriously injured. I usually don't go mad on either dog. I immediately seperate them. I check the most injured one first simply cleaning up their wounds and seeing if vet treatment is necessary. Then I do the same with the other. I don't talk to them during this. Once I am satisfied that they are both ok physically and have both gone back to their usual calm selves I simply open the doors and release them into the main part of the house with everyone else. They usually go to each other and sniff each other and then lie with each other calmly. We have never had a situation where a fight has started again quickly after a previous fight.

I am also like Erny though - I am the top dog in this household. I don't mind my dogs on the lounge or bed but if they want up they only get it when I say it is ok. They only get special treats and toys when I say it is ok and I give them out in the order I want to based on how well they are behaving and what we are doing.

In relation to meals though we have a routine that works well and it is linked to how fast they all eat. The slowest has her bowl down first then the next fastest, etc. That way they finish at the same time and go out to toilet afterwards. If the young one is showing any signs of mania in her eyes while I am preparing dinner then I stop and go and do something else. And we have also done gesture eating for all the dogs and topped up the youngest ones bowl while she was eating so she can see that food comes from me - not the other dogs.

We follow a similar thing with visitors. The young girl gets very worked up with excitement at the front door when someone she loves arrives and I will often shut the door again and send her away if she is struggling to behave. She calms down and can come and greet whoever it is with some control otherwise she would be snapping at the others and jumping over them to get closest, which is not acceptable to me.

Basically I don't want any of the dogs to see themselves as higher than the others. I am the top and that should be all that matters to them. Our routines are about keeping things calm rather than reinforcing one dog over another.

The other thing we will be starting soon is seperate one on one exercise/walks. Play is often only with the younger dog (the others are not into toys) but we have always walked and exercised them together and with other dogs we know. As the old girl can't walk as far now and wont use her dog pram we are going to try seperate walk times and see if this upsets or alters anything. I'm hoping it might reinforce that I am the one to look up to.

[Cosmolo]

What Erny said. I don't agree with the 'punish the lower dog' as a standard thing either.

[Kirty]

My dogs have never (touch wood) had a serious fight, but I will let them sort out minor issues amongst themselves. They are allowed to protect their bowl or their bone within reason. If anyone over-reacts or gets narky, they lose the item. Sometimes the younger dogs will get too rowdy for the older ones and they scold them, and again, I allow that. But anything nasty gets corrected instantly. I think its important to note that I also *try* and step in BEFORE anything happens, to try and show my dogs that they don't need to get narky because I'll handle it. If I see a dog being too rowdy or trying to steal someone else's food, they will get told off.

[jesomil]

I have always had multiple dogs and never allow any aggression unless it is a very brief, deserved snap.

I really think allowing fighting and treating dogs the way you percieve they may be ranked is just asking for trouble.

Edited October 30, 2010 by jesomil

[OSoSwift]

IF hadn't of stepped in and just let my dogs sort it out then I would have had a dead dog.

I truely believe that people that take that opinion have never actually had dogs fight that were serious about it.

In my house minor grumbles and the odd snap are let go, anything that looks like it will ramp up gets stopped very quickly. Whomever the aggressor is gets put into isolation. I am the boss it is my job to sort it.

I won't ever stand back and just let my dogs go for it. If I do I have failed in my job as leader.

[Akayla]

Hard to say. Only time Ive had a problem is when I had a bitch that had issues. Once she decided she had it in for my top bitch that was it. This wasnt a scuffle it was out and out kill fighting. The bitch in question was escalating and would launch at a door if she thought another dog was on the other side.

We got help. Basically the bitch was extremely anxious and could not live with other dogs. Once she was put in a home where she did not have the need to "compete" she became her normal lovely self. She was an extreme case though.

Usually if my other girls have a tiff I find out why. The best way to solve the fight is remove/fix the problem. They generally only growl a bit may show some body language. Thats as far as its allowed to get here.

[tdierikx]

IF hadn't of stepped in and just let my dogs sort it out then I would have had a dead dog.

Same here... mine are now permanently separated...

T.

[melzawelza]

Interesting! So for family members that were starting to tiff (- younger dog 'becoming of age' and starting to try and assert their position is a common scenario) you guys would maybe practice NILIF to get the dog's initial respect etc and of course working to stop the fights before they happen?

Would you worry that you would forever have to keep a watchful eye or do you believe iits possible to 'sort' these issues so that it doesn't become a problem again?

ETA: I think we can all agree that dogs that are regularly hurting each other or fighting for the kill need to be separated. But what about that blurry line of say, fights that are noisy and a lot of carry on but with no injuries? Is that a different category to you? What about if the dogs are scuffling and not hurting each other but redirected on people getting in the middle or something like that? Are fights of that nature 'separating' territory to you or something you feel could be sorted through in your household?

I wonder about the fine line between 'normal' behaviour within a household and what is worrisome territory that could mean drastic measures in the future

Edited October 30, 2010 by melzawelza

[BigDaz]

I have two Staffy female siblings who are now 3 years old and have not had a serious fight, although it is something I think about often as they are always together. If they do get a bit agressive when I am home it is stopped right away.

Should there always be an obviously dominant bitch?

With my two girls it is really hard to tell and seems to vary depending on the situation.

When it comes to food Tippi can eat Zena's food or even take her bone and the worst Zena will do is come to me to get it back for her. Then when it comes to toys Zena seems to have the upper hand, Tippi wont take the toy off Zena, although Zena seems to love being chased for the toy regardless.

[melzawelza]

I have two Staffy female siblings who are now 3 years old and have not had a serious fight, although it is something I think about often as they are always together. If they do get a bit agressive when I am home it is stopped right away.

Should there always be an obviously dominant bitch?

With my two girls it is really hard to tell and seems to vary depending on the situation.

When it comes to food Tippi can eat Zena's food or even take her bone and the worst Zena will do is come to me to get it back for her. Then when it comes to toys Zena seems to have the upper hand, Tippi wont take the toy off Zena, although Zena seems to love being chased for the toy regardless.

I think it's very normal for 'dominance'

To be fluid and change depending on the situation etc. Which I guess mAkes it hard to utilize the comments posted about in my OP, cos how do you know which one is the 'top'?!

Edited October 30, 2010 by melzawelza

[Erny]

I think it's very normal for 'dominance'

To be fluid and change depending on the situation etc. Which I guess mAkes it hard to utilize the comments posted about in my OP, cos how do you know which one is the 'top'?!

I agree - which is why it is easier and IMO less risky to treat each dog equally.

..... I even remember my Mum saying (with grimace) when we were kids :- "I don't care which of you two started it ... " Lol .... not to suggest anthropomorphic gestures count here, but the topic just triggered a memory.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Erny

[Little Gifts]

Melz I was thinking about your last lot of questions. In our household we have a husky/shep cross bitch of 7. She came to the house with my sister who has her very well trained and responsive. But this dog thinks it is her role to discipline the other 2 dogs (as well as friends dogs when they are all together). We call her the fun police because she is always trying to stop play between the other two and if the younger one is playing by herself tries to stop that as well. She does other things like stopping the dogs from moving through doorways or up the stairs or from getting on the furniture without permission. She basically makes a high pitched bark noise and kind of snaps at them (but doesn't connect with them) and then looks to us (for praise or ????). Whenever she does it we correct her calmly, remove her from the situation and encourage the other dogs to continue playing. It has never escalated anything between any of the dogs but we feel it is not her role to discipline the others - it is ours. It is like she is dobbing on them for doing something she doesn't feel is right.

Given I own dogs as pets and not for breeding or any other purpose, if I had to keep dogs seperate from each other to avoid the fights and injuries then I would have to rehome the dog causing it to an only dog home as obviously the environment I could offer it was not right. It would break my heart to do it but I think it would feel that I was failing it otherwise. But that is just me - I know there are others (like tdierikx) who have the strength and skill to manage it.

[OSoSwift]

I think it's very normal for 'dominance'

To be fluid and change depending on the situation etc. Which I guess mAkes it hard to utilize the comments posted about in my OP, cos how do you know which one is the 'top'?!

I agree - which is why it is easier and IMO less risky to treat each dog equally.

..... I even remember my Mum saying (with grimace) when we were kids :- "I don't care which of you two started it ... " Lol .... not to suggest anthropomorphic gestures count here, but the topic just triggered a memory.

Gosh how many times have I heard that line!!!

Rommi is a bossy bitch when it comes to toys and food.

Lewis is bossy when it comes to getting on the lounge, he won't growl over it but lays down where he wants if that is on Rommi's head so be it!

It is hard to explain, but a fight that is a bit of a tiff , well you can tell that is all it is. One that is deadly serious, well you can tell that as well.

My dogs are treated equally - well okay the oldie gets some special treats, consessions - but sometimes Rommi is fed first, sometimes Lewis is. They both hang back until I have gone through the door. A couple of times a minor snap of growl has gone further and I have told them off but never to the point I have thought they need to be seperated.

When I first got Lewis Rommi was a complete cow once she figured he wasn't going home. She did get stuck into him (they were sleeping together) and he was yelping etc. By the time I got there they had stopped. I did after that, sleep them seperately as I didn't think it was fair if she was going to get terratorial over the bed, blanket, toy etc that he couldn't get away. Also they needed to be seperated when she was in season so now they do sleep seperately.

Ever since that first month or two though they are fine she only gets a bit cranky when she is coming into season.

[Cosmolo]

Anything more than a quick, appropriate growl and snap would be stopped in this house. We run 5 dogs, all of breeds who are not known for excellent sociability with other dogs. They all get along brilliantly and i won't let weak leadership from us change this!

ETA Was just talking to OH about it and he agrees letting dogs engage in a fight exposes you as a weak leader and would never be done here!

Edited October 30, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Christina]

One cannot compare dogs to families of people sorting out rank.

People can speak & explain what the problem is. Some may be reasonable & see the others point & concede & others may be unreasonable & squabble verbally or go to the extreme of violence.

Children deal with this according to basic personality & parental reactions.

Adults have choices of moving, not speaking to & various methods.

Our pet dogs don't have the same abilities or choices & react differently to people.

Owners deal with problems in different ways, what works for some dogs may not work for others.

They have inbuilt personality too. Owner must recognise this.

[Tapferhund]

If the tiff is not done and dusted in a nanno second, then I stand in. I'm the leader and I won't tolerate OT aggression around me.

ABSOLUTELY . ......and is the same in my household MelzaWelza. I also don't favour one dog over the other...........ALL parties cop it !!!

Edited October 30, 2010 by Tapferhund

[WreckitWhippet]

Anything more than a quick, appropriate growl and snap would be stopped in this house. We run 5 dogs, all of breeds who are not known for excellent sociability with other dogs. They all get along brilliantly and i won't let weak leadership from us change this!

ETA Was just talking to OH about it and he agrees letting dogs engage in a fight exposes you as a weak leader and would never be done here!

Pretty much what we do here.

They aren't allowed to fight and certainly aren't left to sort things out for themselves.

I did let one bitch go this year. The youngest dog had been pushing the issue with the older one's, he was being a rude teenage dog. She'd had enough of him not buggering off when told to and he'd also been testing out how powerful the girls were during play.

I'd watched him wrestling with her and she'd had enough and walked off, he persisted and she hammered him. It wasn't a fight and she had him on his back in a split second and itr was over and done with.

Edited October 31, 2010 by ReadySetGo