Running A Frames

[sheena]

My lovely OH is building me an A Frame, which will just about complete the agility course he has built for me at home......sorry girls, he's not for hire (OH, that is) He's building it to ANKA standards but it will be able to be lowered to adjust the height. I have taught her 2o2o for the dogwalk & seesaw but thought a running contact would be better for the A Frame. At present she just flys off the end, like there is "no tomorrow" :D I have a DVD by Barb Davis who uses stride regulators but wondering if anyone else can suggest another DVD or maybe another method of training this without the use of stride regulators. Would it probably be best to have the A Frame lowered for repetitive work, so she doesn't do herself an injury.

I know this has been touched on in another thread, but thought I might post it seperately to attract more comment. :D

[Kavik]

I have taught 2o2o but these are the running contact methods I know of:

Rachel Sanders Box Method

This is the method being discussed in the other thread using a box they are taught to pounce in and out of and jumps for ground gridwork before placing the box on the A-Frame. Reliable Running A-Frames DVD http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...p;ParentCat=222

Sylvia Trkman's method

Starting using a plank on the ground, getting the dog to run the whole way along the plank without jumping off, gradually increasing the angle. http://silvia.trkman.net/

Ali Roukas-Canova's method

Uses a foot target they are taught to pounce on with both front feet. Lots of groundwork with the foot target using other obstacles before placing on equipment, also use of a hoop for them to run under on the equipment to gain speed and confidence on the equipment without needing to worry about them jumping off while you train the target separately. http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...p;ParentCat=222

Edited October 30, 2010 by Kavik

[Staranais]

Sylvia Trkman's method

Starting using a plank on the ground, getting the dog to run the whole way along the plank without jumping off, gradually increasing the angle. http://silvia.trkman.net/

I have read about this method, and it sounded really interesting. I love all of Sylvia Trkman's stuff.

But, one thing confused me, and that is that she doesn't click them for stepping in the contact zone, her criteria for rewarding the dog is just that they run over the contact without changing stride & don't jump over or off it. Seems to me like a bigger dog could easily stride right over the contact? Has anyone used the method with a big dog, & if so can they comment if this was an issue?

Sorry to go OT, Sheena! But perhaps it will interest you too since you have a bigger dog.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Staranais

[Vickie]

The well known methods I am aware of are the ones that Kavik has mentioned.

And yes I think all these methods use a lowered af at some point.

I Would say that there is as much, if not more, precise training & proofing involved in these methods as there is on the 2o2o.

[RubyStar]

Sylvia Trkman's method

Starting using a plank on the ground, getting the dog to run the whole way along the plank without jumping off, gradually increasing the angle. http://silvia.trkman.net/

Thankyou for the link to this site. Just reading her 10 steps for success is inspiring enough I will make sure I go through more things in her site when I have time

[sheena]

Sylvia Trkman's method

Starting using a plank on the ground, getting the dog to run the whole way along the plank without jumping off, gradually increasing the angle. http://silvia.trkman.net/

Thankyou for the link to this site. Just reading her 10 steps for success is inspiring enough I will make sure I go through more things in her site when I have time

Thanks for everyone's input. I think what I am after at the moment, is not necessarily taking the contacts at speed, but making contact with the yellow. Although I have taught the 2o2o, I don't think that this is the right way to go with the A frame, as it looks like it puts stress on the dog's body.

[Vickie]

Thanks for everyone's input. I think what I am after at the moment, is not necessarily taking the contacts at speed, but making contact with the yellow. Although I have taught the 2o2o, I don't think that this is the right way to go with the A frame, as it looks like it puts stress on the dog's body.

I cannot find a link to it, but there was a study saying (& most international experts agree) that to correctly teach a running AFrame puts more stress on a dogs joints than a 2o2o does. The information I was given says that most of the physical impact for the dog is taken on the ascent rather than descent of the AF. The sheer repetition required to teach a running AF means more stress on a dogs body.

[Staranais]

I would be interested in seeing the study if you ever find it, Vickie. The results seem counterintuitive to me, but if it's a good study, then I guess we can't argue with it.

I find it hard to see why there would be more impact on the shoulders upon ascending than descending. It just seems intuitive to me that the dog would use its hind quarters more on the ascent, and put more force on its forequarters for the descent (especially if they jump or brake at the bottom)?

Also as regarding the other point, I wonder if more reps on an obstacle could sometimes be better for the dog? If doing an obstacle is well within a dog's ability, then wouldn't doing the obstacle regularly keep the dog fitter & more accustomed to performing the obstacle? I just know that many injuries I've seen have happened when a dog is asked to perform a strenuous activity which it's not accustomed to doing, as opposed to asking the dog to perform an activity that it does all the time.

A complicated subject, I guess. Would love to see the study if you ever come across it again. It would also be really interesting to see a study on dogs that compared the level of joint degeneration on dogs that did stopped & running contacts their entire careers, but would be pretty hard to do accurately, and I think it might be hard to find funding.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Staranais

[sheena]

Ann Croft in her DVD "4 on the Floor" teaches her contacts with the dog stopping on the ground at the end of the contact. She reckons it doesn't compromise speed or accuracy but reduces stress on the dog's body, unlike what you have with a 2o2o.

[RubyStar]

Ann Croft in her DVD "4 on the Floor" teaches her contacts with the dog stopping on the ground at the end of the contact. She reckons it doesn't compromise speed or accuracy but reduces stress on the dog's body, unlike what you have with a 2o2o.

I'd be interested in seeing this DVD, or just knowing more about the method. If a dog is taught to stop with all 4 feet on the ground past the contact, would it not also encourage some dogs to still jump the contact zone to land on the ground down the bottom? I'm still undecided how to properly teach the contact for the A-Frame for both my dogs.

[Kavik]

4 on the floor teaches a drop on the ground at the bottom of the A-Frame

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...p;ParentCat=222

[sheena]

Ann Croft in her DVD "4 on the Floor" teaches her contacts with the dog stopping on the ground at the end of the contact. She reckons it doesn't compromise speed or accuracy but reduces stress on the dog's body, unlike what you have with a 2o2o.

I'd be interested in seeing this DVD, or just knowing more about the method. If a dog is taught to stop with all 4 feet on the ground past the contact, would it not also encourage some dogs to still jump the contact zone to land on the ground down the bottom? I'm still undecided how to properly teach the contact for the A-Frame for both my dogs.

This is the link to the DVD & no, I don't have it...at that price I would want to know a bit about it & the method before I would commit to buying it. Maybe someone here on DOL have seen it. I have just ordered "Bridging the Gap Between Training & Competition" by Rachel Saunders.

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...p;ParentCat=222

& the Rachel Saunders one

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...p;ParentCat=449

[superminty]

I find it hard to see why there would be more impact on the shoulders upon ascending than descending. It just seems intuitive to me that the dog would use its hind quarters more on the ascent, and put more force on its forequarters for the descent (especially if they jump or brake at the bottom)?

You should see how hard the fast dogs hit the A-frame on the ascent! That's full force on their shoulders initially.

[Vickie]

You should see how hard the fast dogs hit the A-frame on the ascent! That's full force on their shoulders initially.

agreed. The study I was told about used pressure pads, so impact was actually measured.

The person who told us about i. Is coming back to aust in march. I will be sure to ask more about it & hopefully get a link to something published

[sheena]

I have just found an old Clean Run article that explains the 4 on the floor, method in great detail - 7 pages on how to train it from start to finish.

Here is the link http://www.pawsonthewind.com/media/proof_1...OnTheFloora.pdf

Sure beats having to buy the DVD to see what it is all about.

[RubyStar]

Thanks Sheena, I will have a read!!

[ness]

RubyStar - you could have a chat to Simone she used 4 on the floor with Cypher (think she might still use it but not sure).

[pie]

Was just going to say what Ness said! Haven't seen Cypher at any trials lately though (could have missed him)

I would've thought a running A frame could be equally as bad for shoulders as a 2o2o a frame providing your dog shifts it's weight to its rear on the 2o2o A frame (probably not always happening with drivier dogs I guess?) My dog is quite 'square shaped' so he has to flatten and shift his weight or he does a handstand and flicks off.

I agree that the ascent can be worse than the descent too, the noise you hear as some dogs hit the A frame! Crikey!

A lot of people seem to be thinking about running contacts now, and I'm sure Daisy Peel's visit will inspire some, looking forward to seeing some running contacts in trials!

[Staranais]

You should see how hard the fast dogs hit the A-frame on the ascent! That's full force on their shoulders initially.

agreed. The study I was told about used pressure pads, so impact was actually measured.

The person who told us about i. Is coming back to aust in march. I will be sure to ask more about it & hopefully get a link to something published

Thanks! I'd be fascinated if you could.