Teaching Back End Awareness

[Mason_Gibbs]

Have you tried using a "no reward marker"?

Good suggestion, SecretKei. I use the NRM throughout my boy's training and both he and I find it very helpful.

Yes I use 'too bad' - when I say this he just then carries on sitting but then stares down at the floor.

[Red Fox]

Have you tried using a "no reward marker"?

Good suggestion, SecretKei. I use the NRM throughout my boy's training and both he and I find it very helpful.

Kei does too :D If I just stand there and c/t saying nothing he gets bored and walks off. Then again I'm not very good at just standing there and saying nothing anyway

Yes I use 'too bad' - when I say this he just then carries on sitting but then stares down at the floor.

Does he understand the NRM well? If he does it should help to guide and motivate him. Perhaps go back and try conditioning it with commands that he already knows well?

I've just started teaching Kei REA with a step. I'll see if I can upload a vid for you when I have a chance so you can see how we did it.

ETA, you could also try giving your "too bad" command and ending the session when you get no response to give it more meaning. :D

Edited October 30, 2010 by SecretKei

[wuffles]

Oh and wanted to add, once the dog knows it, they usually start offering it on everything I put a tile down on the floor to look at the colour before I had my tiling done and Ruby thought we were going to play "that game", and started putting her front paws on it. No amount of getting her off it got through to her that we weren't playing that game right now :D

This is very true, Ava LOVES this 'game'... anything new she finds on the floor, she will put her front paws on. She's even done it to a piece of paper that fell off the table onto the floor :D

I'm sure Mason will have a light bulb moment soon!

[OSoSwift]

I would try something bigger and higher so there is a definate step on and off.

If you have some stairs try those, even the edge of the lawn/paving something that is very different to what they are on. Once they get the two feet thing then you can transfer it to a large book, then smaller etc etc.

I would also try a small amount of luring I have also found the moving my shoulders or leaning is anough of a lure for mine.

Edited October 30, 2010 by OSoSwift

[RubyStar]

I too would use something larger than that paver we were given. I started Ruby on a little step stool, so it was obvious what I wanted her to target. I started Millie on the lid of the food container. I progressed both of them to their upturned ceramic water bowl or a cake tin :D

As for the NRM, what exactly should she be NRM him for? The dog doesn't know what he is doing yet, he doesn't understand what is being asked of him, I fail to see how a NRM would work in this situation? I'm genuinely asking :D

[Red Fox]

I too would use something larger than that paver we were given. I started Ruby on a little step stool, so it was obvious what I wanted her to target. I started Millie on the lid of the food container. I progressed both of them to their upturned ceramic water bowl or a cake tin :D

As for the NRM, what exactly should she be NRM him for? The dog doesn't know what he is doing yet, he doesn't understand what is being asked of him, I fail to see how a NRM would work in this situation? I'm genuinely asking :D

NRM is just a form of comunication to guide the dog (not a punisher). Basically it should mean "that's not the path to the reward, try something else", same as a RM mean "yes, you're on the right track, keep going" and click means "yes, that was right, here comes your reward". (Hope that makes sense?)

I find for my dog that it makes things clearer for him and helps motivate

[Mason_Gibbs]

I too would use something larger than that paver we were given. I started Ruby on a little step stool, so it was obvious what I wanted her to target. I started Millie on the lid of the food container. I progressed both of them to their upturned ceramic water bowl or a cake tin :D

As for the NRM, what exactly should she be NRM him for? The dog doesn't know what he is doing yet, he doesn't understand what is being asked of him, I fail to see how a NRM would work in this situation? I'm genuinely asking :D

Yeah the paver was higher grade for him, he is too big to get both feet up on it when he has no idea what I want him to do - will use the step stool, I have one of those here

Edited October 30, 2010 by Mason2009

[Tassie]

I'd be luring - and try to get him moving towards the paver/book/box - whatever, and in the interim, click as soon as his paw touches the box - one paw to start with, then toss the treat away, telling him to "Get it". That should get rid of the sitting, which is a big part of the problem at the moment, it seems. Hopefully he will run back towards the box, then you can rinse and repeat. (The tossing the treat away is to get rid of the sitting, and build some more excitement. Once he gets the idea, you can reward him in place.)

Once he gets the idea of putting one paw on, and not sitting, you should be able to get the second paw fairly quickly - as others have said, I'd be using a bigger box for him at first, and then go to the smaller one, once he's got the idea.

Found Rory's paver while I was doing some weeding this morning - must get it out again.

[bedazzledx2]

Very good point there RubyStar. For shaping games I tend to use a phrase like 'ya wanna play?' which means to offer stuff and sometimes, if its not what I want, I'll say 'try again' which means to try something different. The dog has to understand the game for this to mean anything and a NRM could shut a soft dog down before he even gets started.

I too would use something larger than that paver we were given. I started Ruby on a little step stool, so it was obvious what I wanted her to target. I started Millie on the lid of the food container. I progressed both of them to their upturned ceramic water bowl or a cake tin

As for the NRM, what exactly should she be NRM him for? The dog doesn't know what he is doing yet, he doesn't understand what is being asked of him, I fail to see how a NRM would work in this situation? I'm genuinely asking

[corvus]

NRM is just a form of comunication to guide the dog (not a punisher). Basically it should mean "that's not the path to the reward, try something else", same as a RM mean "yes, you're on the right track, keep going" and click means "yes, that was right, here comes your reward". (Hope that makes sense?)

That is debatable. Ultimately, if you're communicating "that's not going to be rewarded", then that is technically a conditioned punisher, assuming it actually does suppress behaviour. I heard Ken Ramirez talking about NRMs today at the APDT conference. He says he's seen a small handful of trainers out of hundreds that use NRMs and actually do so effectively. You don't want to be heading off all their attempts at something new if you are remotely interested in them offering new behaviours in the future. I don't use them in shaping because the lack of a marker is plenty information enough. They ought to be throwing things out there until they get a click. If I want to fast track it or help them out in some way because they are struggling, I would fall back on targeting. It's extremely effective IME, and I use it heavily with my dog that isn't entirely comfortable with trying new things.

[RubyStar]

I too would use something larger than that paver we were given. I started Ruby on a little step stool, so it was obvious what I wanted her to target. I started Millie on the lid of the food container. I progressed both of them to their upturned ceramic water bowl or a cake tin

As for the NRM, what exactly should she be NRM him for? The dog doesn't know what he is doing yet, he doesn't understand what is being asked of him, I fail to see how a NRM would work in this situation? I'm genuinely asking

NRM is just a form of comunication to guide the dog (not a punisher). Basically it should mean "that's not the path to the reward, try something else", same as a RM mean "yes, you're on the right track, keep going" and click means "yes, that was right, here comes your reward". (Hope that makes sense?)

I find for my dog that it makes things clearer for him and helps motivate

But not all dogs are motivated by a NRM, some dogs see them as something to avoid. I don't have a soft dog but too many NRM's and my dog would say she doesn't want to play anymore. She would do what she does when gets stressed, put her head down and eat the grass. Too many NRM's and you have to ask yourself, have I actually taught this dog what I want? I can see what you're saying about indicating that that isn't the path to reward, but for shaping games, which is what the OP is trying to do with Mason, I think she's better ignoring what she doesn't want and C/T for things she does - even if they are teensy tiny bits of the puzzle, like an eye glance in the direction of the object she wants him to interact with. I use NRM's, but not when playing shaping games. It isn't fair to tell them they are wrong when they don't even know what it is you are asking for.

Edited October 30, 2010 by RubyStar

[RubyStar]

I'd be luring - and try to get him moving towards the paver/book/box - whatever, and in the interim, click as soon as his paw touches the box - one paw to start with, then toss the treat away, telling him to "Get it". That should get rid of the sitting, which is a big part of the problem at the moment, it seems. Hopefully he will run back towards the box, then you can rinse and repeat. (The tossing the treat away is to get rid of the sitting, and build some more excitement. Once he gets the idea, you can reward him in place.)

Once he gets the idea of putting one paw on, and not sitting, you should be able to get the second paw fairly quickly - as others have said, I'd be using a bigger box for him at first, and then go to the smaller one, once he's got the idea.

Found Rory's paver while I was doing some weeding this morning - must get it out again.

+1

I don't use them in shaping because the lack of a marker is plenty information enough. They ought to be throwing things out there until they get a click.

I agree with this And the more you do it, the more they offer behaviours.

Edited October 30, 2010 by RubyStar

[sas]

I'd lure the dog onto the target if they didn't put both feet on, however in the past I've just free-shaped it, but I personaly see nothing at all wrong with luring onto the target and clicking, the dog will get it shortly as well.

Leila is my 10 year old Dane and she has already associated the target as a positive, this is her doing her back end awareness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asTIQw6USl4

This was my first session of the target with my then 3 year old Dane:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OurJndZm1go

I use a very big target to start with and then once they know what they're doing and are getting the back end awareness going you can make the target smaller.

Edited October 30, 2010 by sas

[Red Fox]

NRM is just a form of comunication to guide the dog (not a punisher). Basically it should mean "that's not the path to the reward, try something else", same as a RM mean "yes, you're on the right track, keep going" and click means "yes, that was right, here comes your reward". (Hope that makes sense?)

That is debatable. Ultimately, if you're communicating "that's not going to be rewarded", then that is technically a conditioned punisher, assuming it actually does suppress behaviour. I heard Ken Ramirez talking about NRMs today at the APDT conference. He says he's seen a small handful of trainers out of hundreds that use NRMs and actually do so effectively. You don't want to be heading off all their attempts at something new if you are remotely interested in them offering new behaviours in the future. I don't use them in shaping because the lack of a marker is plenty information enough. They ought to be throwing things out there until they get a click. If I want to fast track it or help them out in some way because they are struggling, I would fall back on targeting. It's extremely effective IME, and I use it heavily with my dog that isn't entirely comfortable with trying new things.

I tend to agree with you here (highlighted text), but I do think NRMs can be useful to guide the dog where needed.

Of course you wouldn't head off every wrong attempt or the dog would try nothing, but I see no problem with giving a NRM when the dog is confused or keeps offereing up same the wrong behaviour every time. For example could the OP not use a NRM for her dog sitting then when/if the dog stands up click and praise? She just needs to break through to her dog that the sitting is not required for that particular behaviour and perhaps the lack of marker is not enough in this case.

[corvus]

Of course you wouldn't head off every wrong attempt or the dog would try nothing, but I see no problem with giving a NRM when the dog is confused or keeps offereing up same the wrong behaviour every time.

I have never seen that happen! I'd be assuming my timing was out if I were seeing it, but maybe that wouldn't be the case.

For example could the OP not use a NRM for her dog sitting then when/if the dog stands up click and praise? She just needs to break through to her dog that the sitting is not required for that particular behaviour and perhaps the lack of marker is not enough in this case.

The OP could do whatever they pleased and it may even help. If it does, then good. I've never experienced the lack of a marker not being enough in a training scenario, but both my dogs have been shaping since they were puppies. I'd video a session and double-check I wasn't somehow reinforcing a sit or provoking one in how I was moving around my dog before I considered a NRM.

[rastus_froggy]

Maybe also try changing the texture of your targeting object, maybe your dog doesn't feel safe on the book, perhaps it has moved a little bit and given the dog an unsure feeling about putting the second foot on.

[Staranais]

I have seen a few people use this method to teach back end awareness, I have been attempting to do it and I am a bit clueless on how to get my dog to put both paws on the book, he always only does one! I started by clicking and treating if he came near the book, then clicked and treated for one paw but he has not offered to put the 2nd paw on yet. I have waited him out but he will just sit and stare at me for hours!

Any advice appreciated.

Sounds to me like your dog doesn't understand the game yet (the game being: you offer behaviours, I'll tell you what I like & reward it, and then you offer similar behaviours, and I'll tell you which variation I like and reward it, and so on).

I'd suggest you go and shape a whole bunch of other things, anything you like, and then give the book thing another go when your dog understands the game.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I have seen a few people use this method to teach back end awareness, I have been attempting to do it and I am a bit clueless on how to get my dog to put both paws on the book, he always only does one! I started by clicking and treating if he came near the book, then clicked and treated for one paw but he has not offered to put the 2nd paw on yet. I have waited him out but he will just sit and stare at me for hours!

Any advice appreciated.

Sounds to me like your dog doesn't understand the game yet (the game being: you offer behaviours, I'll tell you what I like & reward it, and then you offer similar behaviours, and I'll tell you which variation I like and reward it, and so on).

I'd suggest you go and shape a whole bunch of other things, anything you like, and then give the book thing another go when your dog understands the game.

No I think he understands shaping but I have realized now why he is confused. A few weeks a go I bought a hula hoop and wanted to start teaching him to go to it , so I rewarded any interaction with the hoop and moved on to clicking and treating when he went and sat in the hoop. But now I think he thinks that sitting with the paw on the book is what I want because when he sat in the hoop I clicked and treated. I have used shaping before a few times with him and all the other times it has worked.

[corvus]

Sometimes it helps to just break it down into smaller behaviours. If you want him to stand, start clicking for standing, then work up to clicking for shifting his weight forward or something like that. I was always skeptical of microshaping until I tried it with Erik. It does work! Not for Kivi, though. He gets too frustrated by not knowing how to get a click that he doesn't seem to notice he's getting a click every second anyway. We're working on Kivi, though.