Teaching Back End Awareness

[Mason_Gibbs]

I have seen a few people use this method to teach back end awareness, I have been attempting to do it and I am a bit clueless on how to get my dog to put both paws on the book, he always only does one! I started by clicking and treating if he came near the book, then clicked and treated for one paw but he has not offered to put the 2nd paw on yet. I have waited him out but he will just sit and stare at me for hours!

Any advice appreciated.

[Erny]

Is there a reason why you are not (for example) using lure to encourage his back feet placement?

If there's not particular reason you don't wish to do this, try it. Once his feet hit the spot, click and treat. It becomes important though to wean off the lure as soon as possible.

Admittedly, shaping is better (IMO) if you can produce it, as the dog is less likely to be focused on the lure and more on where his/her back feet are, but using the lure method a couple of times might just be enough to get you started.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Erny

[GoldenGirl85]

Where are you treating him? Id be putting the treat on the book to try and increase the value of that book, might make him try something new, or does he at least move his other paw? you could also try clicking that too

I know the feeling though, Lexi is not a shaper, Ive been trying to get her to put even just one paw on something, she will do a nose touch, but not a paw touch

[bedazzledx2]

I prefer shaping but you could initially lure him on and click when both feet are on. Sometimes just moving your own position relative to him can cause him to put both paws on.

I have seen a few people use this method to teach back end awareness, I have been attempting to do it and I am a bit clueless on how to get my dog to put both paws on the book, he always only does one! I started by clicking and treating if he came near the book, then clicked and treated for one paw but he has not offered to put the 2nd paw on yet. I have waited him out but he will just sit and stare at me for hours!

Any advice appreciated.

[pie]

I taught Trixie this the other night, I had tried shaping it a few months earlier but she would just look at me with one paw on it, the other night I was luring her up onto it and then C+T, only took two lures for her to get the idea.

[huski]

I was lazy. I lured Daisy to stand with her two paws on the object then shaped the rest.

[Ptolomy]

I had to lure Strauss as he would also just stand there. I made sure the paver was between me and him and C/T when he stepped onto it to get the food.

[ness]

I used something like a phone book and put it between me and the dog and encouraged the dog forward. The fact that it was large meant the dog naturally offered 2 paws on it. Once I got the behavior I was after I went to a smaller object. Tonight we faded down to a post it note size bit of paper :p .

[Mason_Gibbs]

I have tried luring, but I cant get the other front paw on the book at the same time, what he does it comes up to the book, sits and puts one paw on the book and then stares at me, he is so used to getting treated for sitting and staring at me that he is a bit unwilling to offer up different behaviours at the moment.

Edited to add that he is very keen to sit with the paw on book, he is not that keen to stand for some reason or the other - hmmm weirdo dog!

Edited October 29, 2010 by Mason2009

[Mason_Gibbs]

I used something like a phone book and put it between me and the dog and encouraged the dog forward. The fact that it was large meant the dog naturally offered 2 paws on it. Once I got the behavior I was after I went to a smaller object. Tonight we faded down to a post it note size bit of paper :p .

I will try the phone book as it is a lot bigger, Mason is pretty big and he would have to concentrate very hard to get both paws on the size book I am using,.

[corvus]

When I did this with Kivi I hit the same problem, only he wouldn't put either paw on. I tried to lure and he just kept stepping around the phone book. So I shelved it and taught paw targeting instead. Came back to it a while later when Kivi was confidently targeting with both feet on cue and of course that made it quite a bit easier. I think I could have done it as soon as Kivi had grasped the general concept of paw targeting. He just needed prompting to notice the training prop and interact with it.

I do find both dogs respond quite well to me just leaning my weight one way or another. They tend to move their weight towards me. It often results in that extra step that you need.

[Mason_Gibbs]

When I did this with Kivi I hit the same problem, only he wouldn't put either paw on. I tried to lure and he just kept stepping around the phone book. So I shelved it and taught paw targeting instead. Came back to it a while later when Kivi was confidently targeting with both feet on cue and of course that made it quite a bit easier. I think I could have done it as soon as Kivi had grasped the general concept of paw targeting. He just needed prompting to notice the training prop and interact with it.

I do find both dogs respond quite well to me just leaning my weight one way or another. They tend to move their weight towards me. It often results in that extra step that you need.

I will read up on paw targeting

[fuzzy82]

When I did this I used a mouse mat, and just put it between me and the dog, and when she walked towards me because she knew I had the clicker on me and she was anticipating a training session, she walked across the mouse mat. I clicked as she walked across it, then threw the treat away from the mat so she had to move away from me again. I then repositioned myself so that she had to move towards me across the mat again, and clicked when she walked across it, and so on.

Didn't take long for her to get that both front paws on mat = treat.

[RubyStar]

I prefer shaping but will definitely lure something in the very beginning stages with Millie if she doesn't catch on. I tried waiting her out for the same game you are doing with Mason and the best I got was her touching it with her nose or pawing at it to get it to move A couple of lures and she caught on pretty quick.

I completely shaped it with Ruby, though, that took her about half an hour of offering teeny tiny things until the light bulb went off for her. I also shaped the box completely with Ruby, but found in the one and only session I did with Millie so far, I had to lure her a bit Now I'm working on 2x2 weaving with Millie, 2 sessions down and while I didn't lure her through with a treat, using my body position as a cue helped her through.

If Mason is sitting down, maybe don't C/T him for sitting down with one paw anymore. Start again with him standing and C/T for any progress towards it while he is standing.

Oh and wanted to add, once the dog knows it, they usually start offering it on everything I put a tile down on the floor to look at the colour before I had my tiling done and Ruby thought we were going to play "that game", and started putting her front paws on it. No amount of getting her off it got through to her that we weren't playing that game right now

Edited October 29, 2010 by RubyStar

[Mason_Gibbs]

I prefer shaping but will definitely lure something in the very beginning stages with Millie if she doesn't catch on. I tried waiting her out for the same game you are doing with Mason and the best I got was her touching it with her nose or pawing at it to get it to move A couple of lures and she caught on pretty quick.

I completely shaped it with Ruby, though, that took her about half an hour of offering teeny tiny things until the light bulb went off for her. I also shaped the box completely with Ruby, but found in the one and only session I did with Millie so far, I had to lure her a bit Now I'm working on 2x2 weaving with Millie, 2 sessions down and while I didn't lure her through with a treat, using my body position as a cue helped her through.

If Mason is sitting down, maybe don't C/T him for sitting down with one paw anymore. Start again with him standing and C/T for any progress towards it while he is standing.

At least Millie offers something, Mason expects treats from just sitting and looking at me because focus was such an issue in his younger days that he now sits and stares often when I am trying to teach something new - and I know that its my fault because I wanted him to focus on me and now I have it lol! I will try luring it a bit and see what happens.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I prefer shaping but will definitely lure something in the very beginning stages with Millie if she doesn't catch on. I tried waiting her out for the same game you are doing with Mason and the best I got was her touching it with her nose or pawing at it to get it to move A couple of lures and she caught on pretty quick.

I completely shaped it with Ruby, though, that took her about half an hour of offering teeny tiny things until the light bulb went off for her. I also shaped the box completely with Ruby, but found in the one and only session I did with Millie so far, I had to lure her a bit Now I'm working on 2x2 weaving with Millie, 2 sessions down and while I didn't lure her through with a treat, using my body position as a cue helped her through.

If Mason is sitting down, maybe don't C/T him for sitting down with one paw anymore. Start again with him standing and C/T for any progress towards it while he is standing.

Oh and wanted to add, once the dog knows it, they usually start offering it on everything I put a tile down on the floor to look at the colour before I had my tiling done and Ruby thought we were going to play "that game", and started putting her front paws on it. No amount of getting her off it got through to her that we weren't playing that game right now

Mason used to do that with his spinning trick, if I had food and he was very happy he spins and spins in case I would treat him lol.

[RubyStar]

I prefer shaping but will definitely lure something in the very beginning stages with Millie if she doesn't catch on. I tried waiting her out for the same game you are doing with Mason and the best I got was her touching it with her nose or pawing at it to get it to move A couple of lures and she caught on pretty quick.

I completely shaped it with Ruby, though, that took her about half an hour of offering teeny tiny things until the light bulb went off for her. I also shaped the box completely with Ruby, but found in the one and only session I did with Millie so far, I had to lure her a bit Now I'm working on 2x2 weaving with Millie, 2 sessions down and while I didn't lure her through with a treat, using my body position as a cue helped her through.

If Mason is sitting down, maybe don't C/T him for sitting down with one paw anymore. Start again with him standing and C/T for any progress towards it while he is standing.

At least Millie offers something, Mason expects treats from just sitting and looking at me because focus was such an issue in his younger days that he now sits and stares often when I am trying to teach something new - and I know that its my fault because I wanted him to focus on me and now I have it lol! I will try luring it a bit and see what happens.

No, Millie is very much like this, too. She sits and stares at me because that is what I have rewarded her for most, plus the fact I have done very little shaping with her so she hasn't learnt how to learn in this manner like Ruby did as a pup. That is why I had to lure Millie in the end I dread shaping with Millie, but I know I have to do more with her as it makes her a better learner in the end!

Edit: I also have to make sure that when I am shaping with Millie, that my posture and where I place my hands do not resemble what I do when I ask her to heel or generally pay attention to me. I naturally hold my hand at my side so I have had to make a conscious effort to put my hands behind my back when shaping with her so she doesn't think I am actually asking her to get into heel and pay attention. I also don't make much eye contact with her either.

Edited October 29, 2010 by RubyStar

[JulesP]

I've had to place paws on before Just once and then they are cool about it.

[Red Fox]

Have you tried using a "no reward marker"? So when the dog does the wrong thing you say "nope" or "try again" (or something to that effect), then when the dog does anything resembling the right thing you c/t and go wild with praise.

And perhaps try using something bigger/higher/more obvious to start with (like a small kiddy step), you can always switch it later on once he has the hang of it

*sp

Edited October 29, 2010 by SecretKei

[Erny]

Have you tried using a "no reward marker"?

Good suggestion, SecretKei. I use the NRM throughout my boy's training and both he and I find it very helpful.