Advice With My Foster Dogs

[Guest choice_brandy]

Hi everyone,

For a bit of background - I currently have a 9 month old female red heeler and a fostered male red heeler living here.

Tango (a long termer from Blacktown pound) is very dog reactive particularly on walks or if dogs are walked past our house. As such he needs to stay at He loves Chilli but acts very aggressively towards any male dog. There is no warning or posturing from him, he just lunges immediately and its on for young and old.

Chilli was beaten up by a previous housemate when she was quite young and prefers women as a result, but is a happy go lucky type of dog and is fine meeting new people and dogs, very submissive with both though. She attended puppy school but training up until now has just been done by myself (shift worker so obedience was difficult) She has a good repertoire of tricks and loves learning. Heels beautifully, wont eat until told, can sit, stand, drop and roll over on command.... plus has mastered opening the fridge and retrieves her beer toy (we're working on the real aim but she dislikes the feel of glass in her teeth at the moment ) Anyway, at 9 months she is very impressionable and has decided to mirror Tangos antics with carrying on at other dogs.

So anyway... Tango needs to be sorted before he is rehomed so armed with some awesome friends I've decided to take him to obedience

99 phonecalls later I managed to find a trainer who said he could definitely help with the problem child (some of the more expensive clubs suggested not bringing the one who needs it the most) ;) Our first class was a real eye opener to the problem I have gotten myself in to. Tango made a grand entrance by barking and somersaulting all the way from the car to the oval, then lunging and trying to destroy any dog that looked sideways at him. Fast forward 10 minutes and Tango was a changed dog (amazing how far a little know-how will get you) Chilli on the other hand had decided that she'd take over the role of psycho. She also took a massive dislike to the the trainer and at one stage became a little Cujo, lunging a the trainer with jaws snapping :D

For most of the class we were extradited to the back of the oval with the trainer and the heelers on a crash course of we're boss. At the end we were allowed to join the class and Tango behaved beautifully. Wish I could say the same about my own dog but she improved greatly this week and admittedly, until now has only ever been handled by myself and for most of the class is too busy looking at me rather than her handler. We were set homework which I complied with religiously despite the wet weather... 10 minutes each twice a day times 3. We also are using muzzles on Chilli and Tango just to avoid problems if a loose dog runs up to either of them at the suggestion of our trainer however they are perceived very negatively by the general public with one woman actually abusing me and telling me I shouldn't own dogs like that??? (I was walking Tango at the time who was heeling beautifully, sat beside me and kept his eyes on me the whole time the lady told me how wrong I was having a dog such as him, in the meantime her yapyap was straining on his leash and didn't stop barking for a breath the whole confrontation... which Tango ignored completely )

Anyway... I feel at the moment that we are still within our depth... just, although I did bite off more than I thought I was.

I am posting this here because I am sure people far more experienced than myself will be able to offer some good advice on what we should do/shouldn't do... how to deal with the problems we'll face and help us get the boy prepared for his forever homes. I am aware that Tango might be a long term project and will require someone dedicated to continuing his training, but he is excelling so quickly and is extremely loyal, he'll make a wonderful pet

Pics of the gorgeous boy

Edited August 2, 2011 by chillinamos

[Cosmolo]

Are you fostering these dogs with a rescue group? Is the rescue group aware of this behaviour? Is the trainer qualified and experienced with aggression?

No matter how much work you do with them and how good they are, you must understand that they will likely regress to varying degrees in new homes so great care needs to be taken with their rehoming.

[poodlefan]

Tango (a long termer from Blacktown pound) is very dog reactive particularly on walks or if dogs are walked past our house. He loves Chilli but acts very aggressively towards Barney or any male dog.

Has he actually bitten anyone? I'd be wanting a behavioural assessment before considering rehoming.

99 phonecalls later I managed to find a trainer who said he could definitely help with the problem child (some of the more expensive clubs suggested not bringing the one who needs it the most)

Some clubs probably hold the view that a group class for a highly reactive dog is neither in the dog's interests nor theirs. I'm inclined to agree. A lot of obedience trainers aren't skilled enough to deal with dog aggression and the smarter ones know it.

Edited October 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[Guest choice_brandy]

Thanks for the replies.

The trainer is very experienced with aggressive dogs and has worked wonders on Tango with just two sessions. He has never bitten anyone and is a beautiful loving dog who is gentle with even toddlers, and is 100% with female dogs. The dogs are rescued through a rescue organisation who are aware that Tango is dog reactive. I have no hesitation in keeping him here until we're are certain he has found a suitable home.

Our second session at obedience we were incorporated with the rest of the class from the beginning with Tango never putting a foot wrong. We walk past aggressive dogs in their yards now and he requires the occasional correction but is coming along in leaps and bounds.

We walk early mornings on the beach too with Tango on the lead, and Barney trotting offlead rubbing shoulders with Tango with no issues at all, but at home we would not risk having the two together.

I don't believe either of the dogs are hopeless cases.... I would love to keep either one of them but that's prevent us fostering in the future.

[Guest choice_brandy]

99 phonecalls later I managed to find a trainer who said he could definitely help with the problem child (some of the more expensive clubs suggested not bringing the one who needs it the most)

Some clubs probably hold the view that a group class for a highly reactive dog is neither in the dog's interests nor theirs. I'm inclined to agree. A lot of obedience trainers aren't skilled enough to deal with dog aggression and the smarter ones know it.

Surely a group environment is the best place to sort out a reactive dog. I am happy that the trainers who couldn't deal with Tango were upfront about that fact, but I am glad there are those out there who are willing to take on a challenge and make a difference.

I am doing the best I can to help these dogs and give them the best chance. I feel Tango needs a home that is happy to continue with his training but he's welcome to stay here until that home presents itself. I'd rather work on his problems now than pass them on to someone else. I am wondering if his reactions are not just a product of being in a pound for so long, he is fine with my cats and cuddles them in his bed... he'll make a good pet. Barney just needs a home with a couch and he'll fit in.

[Cosmolo]

No a normal group environment is generally not the best starting point for reactive dogs and their owners/ handlers learning new skills. Private training first and then group training when they're ready is generally the best way to start.

I would talk to your trainer very specifically about exercises that you can do to reduce the amount of regression you will get when the dog is rehomed. If you don't recognise what will happen when a dog is rehomed its harder to prepare for it, and there are some things you can do to ensure new owners don't go right back to the beginning after all the work you are putting in.

[poodlefan]

99 phonecalls later I managed to find a trainer who said he could definitely help with the problem child (some of the more expensive clubs suggested not bringing the one who needs it the most)

Some clubs probably hold the view that a group class for a highly reactive dog is neither in the dog's interests nor theirs. I'm inclined to agree. A lot of obedience trainers aren't skilled enough to deal with dog aggression and the smarter ones know it.

Surely a group environment is the best place to sort out a reactive dog. I am happy that the trainers who couldn't deal with Tango were upfront about that fact, but I am glad there are those out there who are willing to take on a challenge and make a difference.

Before you get too glad, ask yourself if all every other member of a group class should have to act as a training aid for you and this dog because the trainer is "up for a challenge and willing to make a difference".

Reactive dogs freak a lot of dogs and owners out. That they should have to be confronted with one and to train around it for its benefit and without their consent is neither fair, not conducive to effective learning IMO. Trying to maintain focus on trainer and dog when you are concerned about your dog's safety is not fun.

Dog aggressive dogs need their issues sorted BEFORE they go to group classes. To do otherwise is to risk incidents that may harm the progress of the reactive dog and the well being of other class members. Not every dog owner is savvy enough to give a reactive dog the space it needs. Not every dog has the temperament that is suitable for dealing with one in class either.

Those other handlers pay for training too.

Edited October 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[wuffles]

Those other handlers pay for training too.

I have to agree with this in general... my dog was lunged at, growled at and barked at in an aggressive manner by two different dogs last night at our group training classes and it's not a nice experience. He doesn't react as he is a placid boy, but I worry about the effect this may have on him in the future. It can have quite a profound effect on sensitive dogs, or those that do not like to be provoked.

In saying this, I think that on occasion if the dog can be managed well by the trainer, owner and the club, it can work. We have one reactive dog that works at a distance from classes that he will not react, and any dogs that are used as part of his training are selected based on their temperament, sex, and owner's consent. No other dogs are affected as they work so far away from others.

[poodlefan]

Those other handlers pay for training too.

I have to agree with this in general... my dog was lunged at, growled at and barked at in an aggressive manner by two different dogs last night at our group training classes and it's not a nice experience.

In the case of my Toy Poodle - lunging and barking dogs led her to shut down. She could not train in that environment and I had to withdraw her from that class and wait for another.

The other thing to consider (not in the OPs case Id say) is that some dogs become more reactive because the handler is none too savvy. When all that stands between your dog and a potential attack is a fairly clueless hander (some just can't seem to notice what their dog is focussed on or keep them at a distance) and in some cases a very cheap collar and lead, its a sobering thought. A snapped clip, or letting the dog wander too close and its on

Edited October 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[Guest choice_brandy]

Those other handlers pay for training too.

I have to agree with this in general... my dog was lunged at, growled at and barked at in an aggressive manner by two different dogs last night at our group training classes and it's not a nice experience.

In the case of my Toy Poodle - lunging and barking dogs led her to shut down. She could not train in that environment and I had to withdraw her from that class and wait for another.

The other thing to consider (not in the OPs case Id say) is that some dogs become more reactive because the handler is none too savvy. When all that stands between your dog and a potential attack is a fairly clueless hander (some just can't seem to notice what their dog is focussed on or keep them at a distance) and in some cases a very cheap collar and lead, its a sobering thought. A snapped clip, or letting the dog wander too close and its on :p

So is the consensus that I should not take this dog to class? He has never lunged at other dogs other than the first night when we first arrived. All three dogs have been received quite well in the class and I have taken every bit of advice from the trainer on board.

[poodlefan]

So is the consensus that I should not take this dog to class? He has never lunged at other dogs other than the first night when we first arrived. All three dogs have been received quite well in the class and I have taken every bit of advice from the trainer on board.

I don't think there is a consensus. My view is that group classes are not the ideal start to rehabilitating a reactive dog.

If the trainer was prepared to have the dog there that's their prerogative. However I'd not be thinking less of a trainer that wanted one on one time with the dog before allowing it near other dogs in class nor for turning it down.

Edited October 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[ChristineX]

Here I go, jumping in about Duke again! He's my very reactive dog - fortunately not aggressive though. Once my club recognised what his issues were, I spent 6 months working about 30 meters away from whatever class I "attached" myself to, usually the medium or advanced class (which meant, if they worked on sits, so did I but at a distance). The instructors usually chatted to me before class (duke stayed in the car) about things they would like me to work on. After 6 months, we weren't getting any further so I was referred on to a behaviouralist. Best thing that ever happened. We still go to the ob. club, and it took us 2.5 years to join the class (the advanced class, these guys started at the same time Duke and I did). When he figured out the recall (on longline), he got a standing ovation!! And newcomers now get told about Duke (they tend to get 30 seconds of hysterics before Duke figures out - yes it is actually a dog and there fore okay - yes I do keep a fair bit of distance from dogs I don't know).

And over the years, paticularly the west highland white's owner (duke is particularly terrified by small white fluffies) has often offered to help with desensitisation exercises (ie, starting by walking at a distance, steping closer one step at a time). We owe them a lot.

I think you can deal with reactive dogs and normal groups, but sensibley, with good trainers/behaviouralists and starting at distances and working in. Probably not a good idea with beginners classes though - too many dogs already on an excitable high and a reactive dog do not work out well. Having said that, the last new class at our club, at least 3 people brought their dogs down because they were reactive (all of them from the RSPCA). We made sure they got some basic techniques, and the contacts for our 3 favourite behaviouralists. The dachound went with the behaviouralist, the GSD is working thru issues with the club (and a lot of sense), the basenjie/stumpy cattle cross only did the one term but had very sensible owners.

[Guest choice_brandy]

The trainer did spend our first session one on one... well three on one, and I doubt he'd have thrown us into the class if he thought the our dogs would cause a problem. There has not been any incident with Tango despite him working within feet of other dogs, brushing against other dogs and we even have a dog offlead in our class. The muzzle is a precaution only, I am not so naive to say that because he didn't put a foot wrong last week he wont next week.

I struggle a bit with peoples views of having him muzzled in public, having been abused just for walking the dog, however I live in an area where many dogs rush out of their yards unrestrained and the muzzle actually convinces their stupid owners to get hold of their dog instead of just saying "it's ok... he's friendly"

The trainers opinion regarding Tango being rehomed is that he would like any perspective adoptee to attend at least two or three sessions with him to reduce any regression. He's on a pretty intensive crash cause at the moment and improves every day. We will be attending a family BBQ this weekend with other dogs, everybody understands that he's not perfect but are supportive, he will remain onlead.

Just on a side note, I was getting concerned that I was going about helping Tango the wrong way... and called the trainer for further advice... he wants us to continue with Tango as we are and will directly ask the class if Tangos presence is causing them concerns

[Aidan3]

I'd be really hesitant to make a recommendation, if you're happy with what the trainer is doing then he's in the best position to advise you.

Just be aware of treating the effect and not the cause. It's relatively easy to stop outward displays of aggression in specific situations, but unless you have addressed the cause of the aggression you're likely to be up for a suprise at some point. If you're confident that this dog is learning to cope and relax, rather than just learning to "shut up", then you're on the right track.

A class is usually not the right environment for this in the early stages, but not all dogs are overwhelmed by them.

[Guest choice_brandy]

I feel in Tango's case we might be on the right track. Two weeks ago a trip to the beach was out of the question. He has calmed down remarkably even when confronted with situations that you would expect him to react to. At the beach dogs can come up to him and sniff him all over and he wags his tail... he plays well with any female dog we have introduced him to, from a 5 month old maltese to my mates german shepherd and adjusts his boisterousness to the dog he's interacting with. He walks on a loose lead past houses with dogs going off their tree. He is ok with Barney off our property and we can walk Barney through Tango's yard while Tango is roaming free with no incident. I would not trust the two on their own, but Tango is fine alone with Chilli.

I don't know why Tango ended up at the pound but he had been debarked previously Since being here we've always given the dogs plenty to do so he has never barked out of boredom although he did bark at dogs walking past. Today I observed 4 dogs that passed by and the most interest Tango showed was standing by the fence wagging his tail. He knew I was watching and kept looking at me (maybe to make sure I noticed how good he's being) At the markets this morning Tangos biggest mistake was jumping onto on lady's table to make it easier for her to pat him... fortunately she didn't mind at all and gave him a hug.

He is trying so hard to please, when he heels his head is glued to my knee and his eyes are on me constantly.

I am not about to say he is cured or give him any amount of trust regarding the safety of other dogs, and I would not rehome him to anyone who isn't prepared to understand how he operates and how to get the best out of him. I would like to find him a direction to keep his mind active though, he loves learning, loves people, is so gentle with even toddlers. Chilli has been enrolled in agility now and starts a beginners course this week. I am not sure that Tango would be as suited to that and wondering if there are other options for him. He couldn't give a rats about balls and toys are only really entertaining for him if Chilli is there to steal it from. He can't swim although he enjoys kayaking with a life jacket on. Is there any ideas on something we could get him involved in?

Edited October 31, 2010 by choice_brandy

[Aidan3]

Is there any ideas on something we could get him involved in?

Tracking is good for dogs who aren't 100% around other dogs, or herding. Both are fairly time consuming though. Treibball is brilliant for active herding breeds, I started a thread here some time back.

[Guest choice_brandy]

We had a huge win at obedience this morning with Tango. He's now going to obedience twice a week, plus he gets an hour run in the morning on the beach, 10 minutes training twice a day, and about a 40 minute walk in the evenings. (remind me why I chose cattle dogs to rescue???) He's becoming less reactive to other dogs every day. Always the first 5 minutes of so is needed to reinforce it's not appropriate to lunge and coat hanger yourself on a choker, but afterwards, he's the class star.

We've gone from a dog who didn't know sit to one who can sit, stand, drop, stay, come and heel absolutely perfect for the entire class. He works great even with other dogs brushing him and remains 100 percent focused. He has been accepted into agility after the coordinator came to meet him this morning to see if he might pose a problem.

The biggest surprise today was Tango walking up to every dog during the break, tail wagging and gave them all a kiss. He is still in a muzzle and he was up with the other dogs getting a drink during the break and our trainer noted how he wanted to talk to another dog waiting his turn. We allowed them to have a sniff and Tango had a buck and play bow he was so excited, he then proceeded to do the same with all the other dogs, big ones, little ones, puppies, even another DA dog who had a growl at him but he rolled over wagging his tail and the had a play. So proud of him and it feels fantastic to see to dividends of all the work we've put into his socialization.

[Nekhbet]

If the group classes are set up by experienced people then I do not see what the problem is taking a problem dog out there. The dog school I teach at accepts ALL dogs, we have the space and the facilities to handle aggressive dogs and they sometimes need to be out and about. We're not stupid and let them stress others out but it does work.

Also at $10 a class it gets people taking their dogs out and getting them trained instead of having them live in the backyard.

[ChristineX]

Hi choice-brandy - that's a lovely update - very well done :D

And I totally agree with Nekhbet!!

[CassandBel]

Just a quick question ...are these your first fosters or have you had others before?

I also foster (various breeds) and usually find that the dogs can be very defensive or on the other end of the scale, very aloof for the first week or so until they find their feet. Fostering pound puppies (especially long termers) is very different as they can learn some very bad behaviours as a result of other dogs they are subjected to while in caged runs etc. Usually these problems can be sorted wth the correct retraining and guidance just as you are doing now.

I had a kelpie that became very reactive (she was my own dog not a foster) have no idea why but it seemed to be a chemical change in her brain (this was the diagnosis after seeking help from numerous vets ,"behaviouralists" and natural therapists). I used to walk her and allow her to participate in agility while wearing her plastic cage muzzle. You are so right the best thing it did for her was alert other owners that she did not want to be greeted by their "ok" dog.

Well done for helping to save these dogs and taking the time to correct the behaviours before finding forever homes. :D