my_sibe_owns_me Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 How do you go about picking your puppy? Of course there is structure, temp and style to look at. But what comes first for you? lets say your nicest puppy structure wise isnt the style you like and theres a puppy with the style you like and nice structure but not as nice as your other puppy? Temp means a lot to me so a sucky temp will get a puppy veto from my list and could even mean a show puppy, no matter how nice, getting fixed. But what does it for you? Would you take second, or even third pick, from your litter for style sakes or would you keep the nicest puppy even tho its not they style you like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) If I'm going to live with it I HAVE to like it...in both temperament and appearance! lets say your nicest puppy structure wise isnt the style you like and theres a puppy with the style you like and nice structure but not as nice as your other puppy? I'd run both on because it would be unusual for me to find a puppy out of type in a litter (that I bred) so I'd need to run it on as well as the preferred sibling and see what panned out. Edited October 28, 2010 by Aziah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 First thing to remember is that EVERY litter of puppies has a "pick". Whether that pick is a show prospect is a completely different thing. Second thing to remember is that your pick may not be somebody else's pick. That said.....I tend to pick my puppies when they're on the ground using what they've got. Others do it on the stack. I look at them and try to apply the standard to them, with allowances made of course for age and development. Some things won't change...short upper arms won't lengthen, long backs won't shorten, straight hindquarters won't miraculously start to bend. Temperament is EVERYTHING despite what others might say IMO. I was told by my mentor many years ago that every dog has faults, but the ones with the best temperaments carry those faults to advantage. Meaning that a dog who positively sparkles will catch the eye for other reasons and make any visible faults less obvious. The disclaimer of course is that these shouldn't be disqualifying faults...but that should be common sense. As far as not keeping pick puppy...I've done it. I have often said that (and very recently) that it was a good thing that my Stafford puppy Roger is turning out as nicely as he is because he was staying no matter what. He was the one that drew my eye from very early on. There was another boy in the litter that was probably better as a baby, but he didn't "choose" me the way Roger did and he didn't catch my eye in the same way either. Sometimes, despite what your eye says, you just need to follow your gut. As long as you're happy to be true to yourself and admit that you may NOT have selected the best puppy, and as long as you are happy to live with your choice, then you've done the right thing and taken YOUR "pick". Just my opinion anyway, FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Far too many breeders pick for style and a showy attitude over correct construction and then go on to win with a dog with bad conformation. They then breed from these incorrect, big winning dogs and the breed starts to decline. It is the very thing that show breeders get accused of all the time and these days the that accusation is often justified. It also leads to judges awarding "generic show dogs" over correct dogs that conform to the standard. Joe Blogs off the street could pick the showiest dog in a line-up. Judges that spend years getting their qualifications and studying standards, should be looking for correct conformation and movement first. Sadly this is getting to be the exception rather than the rule and is one of the reasons I and many other devoted showies, hardly if ever, bother to show any more. No breed standard states that a dog must "show" well but this now seems to be the only criteria for winning under some judges. When I did my members eduation scheme I was horrified to hear that judges are trained to look for type and style first and then pick the soundest from what they have shortlisted, whereas it should be the dog of best type from among the ones of sound conformation and movement. Now I know a mongrel can be soundly constructed so type and style are important but if the dog is not firstly correct and sound in conformation it should not be considered either a show or breeding prospect. Sometimes picking puppies comes down to eliminating breed wide faults. In many breeds, including my own, most breeders and judges don't seem to worry about correct fronts. For me, if a puppy does not have a correct front it is a non-contender from the start. I don't care how good the rest is, if the front is not right the dog will never move correctly and I will not add yet another dog with a bad front to the ever increasing number in our breed. Correct temperament for the breed is essential and should not ever be compromised no matter how good the rest of the dog is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) I agree in part with what you've said dancinbcs but having been around for a very long time, I've also seen the absolutely BEST conformed dogs dumped because they have no attitude. And I can tell you for free that having a completely NON-GLAMOUR breed like Staffords can be a real eye-opener. Sometimes, temperament is the ONLY thing that will draw a judges' eye. There are many good dogs out there who really let themselves down because they are dour and don't ask to be looked at. I'm not for one minute saying that all you need is a dog that shows. It MUST still look like the breed it is representing (that is, after all, the definition of breed TYPE). But it is also a huge advantage if the dog has a temperament that allows a judge to actually SEE what the dog has, rather than guessing at it because the dog refuses to show itself off properly. And too many people get hung up on the cosmetic faults and forget actual construction too. I sometimes wish that we could go back to the days when different parts of a breed standard were allocated points. This would make it so much easier to educate judges as to what is essential in a breed and what can be seen as "negotiable". Editing because I got lost in my own train of thought......we don't have many trains in Tassie y'know! Edited October 28, 2010 by ellz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) Poodlefan can't reply to this post so I'm posting on her behalf... Susanne Clothier has written a very good article about selecting for vigour.Link is here Readers will need to agree to the conditions before access. I think her point of both very valid and often overlooked. ETA: edited to fix my poor spelling error (Poddlefan) Edited October 28, 2010 by Aziah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 This is so hard. I have kept 2 as I couldn't decide. Temps are great. Being little fluffies I look at them when they are wet after their bath when they are towel dried. Makes it easier to see exactly what the dog is like, for me anyway. I also consider when breeding if the pup has a little something I don't like, but outweighs the others overall, will the dog I put her to make any difference. Some things it will & others it just won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my_sibe_owns_me Posted October 28, 2010 Author Share Posted October 28, 2010 Interesting articel poddlefan. I will have to keep that in mind for my next litter. All of my puppies are very strong and healthy so I dont think picking the stronger link will factor in much. I know who is the smartest but having the smart siberian isnt always the wisest choice! lol dancinbcs- I get what you are saying. My breed, siberians, is VERY political (in my area, anyways. Theres handfuls of big handlers and big kennels.) and i have seen top winning dogs in the ring and can clearly see their faults but they are the faults that make a dog flashy and some judges just dont get it. Or they just go for the person on the other end of the lead. Theres also two very different styles out right now and its a hit or miss on the judge you get. I wouldnt pick the pet of the litter just because it has the style I like. But I have two bitches right now that structure wise are very much a like. One has more neck therefor having nicer shoulders. Shes a really nice puppy as of right now. The other puppy isnt crap by any means shes just not AS nice but is very typy. Both look nice gaiting from the side. I guess I will know more once I can see their rear moments. If they end up with their sires rear their out. I'd keep them both if it where possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 The old type vs soundness agreement has supporters for both sides. Personally if the dogs is not typey, I don't care how sound it is I am not keeping it. I couldn't bear looking at really bad head faults for example as to me that sweet expression is the essence of our breed. That said as a breeder you have to look at what you need to improve. I currently have a litter which has a bitch with the sweetest expression and exactly the presence I always look for but I am leaning towards keeping the 2nd pick bitch as she is better structurally. She is still a nice type but doesn't catch my eye the way the pick does. That said I will be running both on to see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Because I linebreed, my 'style' is set in all the pups and I basically know what I'm going to get before they are born. As such, I restrict my pick to what the breed standard calls for as there are things in that standard I don't care for, but know that in the end, we must follow the standard. It's not about what I like, it's about what best meets the written standard. I've kept shy pups, I"ve kept over the top pups...sorting that out is easy with routine and training. Fixing inadequate shoulders or wonky rears isn't as easy, so to me, structure meeting the breed standard is paramount and the only thing I look for. I've never let the cute/friendly puppy sway my decision and stay simply because of that. I've had white marks on chests for example and regardless of howgood the pup might be in other areas, it's petted out because that goes against the breed standard. I know of others that will cover it with makeup and ignore it (but it will come back and get them in the whelping box at a later date) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Something else I'd like to add......although I kept the puppy in the litter who "appealed" to me....he's not a bad specimen of the breed by any stretch of the imagination. And as I said, it's a good thing he has turned out as he has because he was staying anyway. BUT....my actual "pick" of the litter was the bitch that I kept. I didn't really have any intention of keeping a male puppy but when the time came I had fallen head over heels for Roger and so I figured I had the room so they could both stay. The bitch was probably in many ways better than the dog (different temperament though). BUT, as she was stolen....how she looks now is unknown. But at the end of the day, I have a dog of whom I am proud and who I can live with and that's what matters. As I said in my first post.... First thing to remember is that EVERY litter of puppies has a "pick". Whether that pick is a show prospect is a completely different thing. Second thing to remember is that your pick may not be somebody else's pick. People pick what they pick for various reasons and IMO NOBODY'S reason is wrong. I may not like somebody else's pick puppy (or adult dog for that matter) but as long as they are happy with it, that's all that matters. The perfect dog hasn't yet been bred and interpreting a breed standard whilst it shouldn't necessarily be so....is a very subjective thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalevi Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 We like to watch them when they are roming around in the garden at 7 weeks, anytime before seems too soon as they change so much. We like seeing how they move naturally. We also put them up on the table for a look see - and I always get a second opinion as sometimes I feel too close to it to see clearly. It was really helpful to get a second opinion this time from a couple of people outside the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 We like to watch them when they are roming around in the garden at 7 weeks, anytime before seems too soon as they change so much. We like seeing how they move naturally. We also put them up on the table for a look see - and I always get a second opinion as sometimes I feel too close to it to see clearly. It was really helpful to get a second opinion this time from a couple of people outside the breed. I agree with this, of course you do have your favourites before 7 weeks, and yes, they do change, but you get the occassional one that starts blossoming around this time, that you hadn't really "picked" earlier, but watching the natural movement at this time can tell you a lot, it is my favourite time, and I watch them like hawks.......and yes, I have changed my pic at this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I've recently watched a litter of Sibe pups grown from day old grubs to 6 month old pups. Three pups who were run on and from a very early age (approx 3 weeks) one of them stood out despite the breeder's personal aversion to colour . I picked the other one for her even earlier - it was the one that always screamed/fought against being held. It always seems that her stubborn puppies are the ones who have a fabulous showy temperament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazzapug Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 The ones that have it from birth will be the ones that catch your eye at 6 and 8 weeks of age. That also depends if you have an eye for a dog or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my_sibe_owns_me Posted October 31, 2010 Author Share Posted October 31, 2010 That sounds about right. My nicest puppy is a brat and has never wanted to be held, or held for long. I like to watch them move. If they move right they are put together right. They can look great and not move great at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalevi Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I think we get lucky with Lappies as our picks are usually always the confident ones but this breed ALL want cuddles :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts