Puppy-mill Turned Kennel?

[Diva]

People out there isn't it about time you stood up for rights and let the public know about these, to Quote Steve " Animal Rights Rat Bags."

It isn't just the animal rights people though. A lot of breeders seem want to foster attitude that you can't breed on anything other than a small scale and do it well.

When I have said on this forum that there is a place for good, ethical, registered breeders breeding sound, healthy, typey pure bred puppies for companion homes - testing them occassionally in the show ring but without the show ring being the whole point of breeding - it has been breeders on here who have howled me down and said I support puppy farmers and am anti registered breeder. I have found as much dispute amongst the registered breeder community on this issue as within the broader community.

So no, it isn't time I did any such thing. All the DoL breeders have managed to do for me on the issue is cause confusion, I'm not going to be answering any call to arms from them any time soon.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Diva

[sparkycat]

Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner.

Surely that alone rings alarm bells....and rather smacks of a puppy mill?

Sure, puppy mills are legal, but it certainly doesn't hurt for the RSPCA to be aware of their existence and to keep periodic checks on the welfare of the animals kept there.

Without marching into the premises, Heavy Paws, or anyone who cares about the welfare of dogs and cats, would have no idea if animals are sufferering there or not, particularly if the premises looks a bit 'feral'...so getting the RSPCA to check is a very sensible option.

If the owner has nothing to hide and the animals are kept in good conditions, have adequate food, water, shelter, vet care and exercise...then exactly what harm is done by them being checked out?

Honestly....I wonder if some of you are just posting to start yet another argument?

Keeping periodic checks on them because they breed dogs conducted by a group who is against breeding and who is a quasi police force with no accountability - no way am I giving a tick to that especially as there is no definition which differentiates between them and any other person who breeds a litter of puppies.

If they are a boarding kennel and obviously they are they have much harder regs and more frequent checks anyway. If they are boarding animals with out the required permits they would have been shut down long ago and they wouldnt be advertising it either.

So are you saying that just because someone breeds dogs they should be immune to any checks at all ? Puppy buyers have to meet a criteria set by the breeder but the breeder doesn't have to comply with Animal Cruelty Acts or whatever they are called ?

Even on this forum I have read awful stories from people who have bought a puppy in good faith from a registered breeder only to then have problems.

Sure there are problems with the RSPCA but also there must be some form of independent body that has the power to oversee animal breeding and welfare.

[Steve]

People out there isn't it about time you stood up for rights and let the public know about these, to Quote Steve " Animal Rights Rat Bags."

It isn't just the animal rights people though. A lot of breeders seem want to foster attitude that you can't breed on a large scale and do it well.

When I have said on this forum that there is a place for good, ethical, registered breeders breeding sound, healthy, typey pure bred puppies for companion homes - testing them occassionally in the show ring but without the show ring being the whole point of breeding - it has been breeders on here who have howled me down and said I support puppy famers and am anti registered breeder. I have found as much dispute amongst the registered breeder community on this issue as within the broader community.

Yep because they are brainwashed and use it as a way of re inforcing what animal rights have been bleating because it makes them feel superior when they breed a letter every two years rather than be seen for what they are people who have little clue about breeding puppies fit for human families over several generations.

Again I say anyone can breed a puppy, anyone can breed a champion or a working dog but it takes a hell of a lot more than a litter or two now and then to be able to consistently breed great puppies.

If you own a dog and show it - instant credibility - breed it and of course you're a great breeder - what a joke.

[Diva]

Yep because they are brainwashed and use it as a way of re inforcing what animal rights have been bleating because it makes them feel superior when they breed a letter every two years rather than be seen for what they are people who have little clue about breeding puppies fit for human families over several generations.

Again I say anyone can breed a puppy, anyone can breed a champion or a working dog but it takes a hell of a lot more than a litter or two now and then to be able to consistently breed great puppies.

If you own a dog and show it - instant credibility - breed it and of course you're a great breeder - what a joke.

Agree.

[ellz]

Personally I think where the lines become crossed is over the usage of the word "quality".

There is one school of thought which says that you can only define "quality" as being a superior representative of the breed, as in having it evaluated against other members of the breed in the show ring.

The other school of thought is that the word "quality" could apply to any healthy, happy, well-reared puppy that is free of genetic defects and disorders and bred and cared for to the best of the breeders' ability.

The issue that I have with the former, is that dogs in the show ring are NOT compared to each other, they are compared to the written standard for each breed so therefore it isn't necessarily a requirement that a dog set foot in the show ring PROVIDED the breeder is able to interpret and apply the current standard for the day HONESTLY to their own dogs.

And the latter should be a given no matter where or how a puppy is born and bred.

I show because I enjoy it. And also because it gives ME an opportunity to see how my own interpretation of the breed standard shapes up to other people's. It also gives me some "bragging rights" because Joe Q quite often DOES give a damn about how many ribbons the family of their puppy has won and being in the show ring and "visible" also means that there is some transparency in what you do and how you treat your dogs and your ethics (or lack thereof) overall.

[Steve]

Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner.

Surely that alone rings alarm bells....and rather smacks of a puppy mill?

Sure, puppy mills are legal, but it certainly doesn't hurt for the RSPCA to be aware of their existence and to keep periodic checks on the welfare of the animals kept there.

Without marching into the premises, Heavy Paws, or anyone who cares about the welfare of dogs and cats, would have no idea if animals are sufferering there or not, particularly if the premises looks a bit 'feral'...so getting the RSPCA to check is a very sensible option.

If the owner has nothing to hide and the animals are kept in good conditions, have adequate food, water, shelter, vet care and exercise...then exactly what harm is done by them being checked out?

Honestly....I wonder if some of you are just posting to start yet another argument?

Keeping periodic checks on them because they breed dogs conducted by a group who is against breeding and who is a quasi police force with no accountability - no way am I giving a tick to that especially as there is no definition which differentiates between them and any other person who breeds a litter of puppies.

If they are a boarding kennel and obviously they are they have much harder regs and more frequent checks anyway. If they are boarding animals with out the required permits they would have been shut down long ago and they wouldnt be advertising it either.

So are you saying that just because someone breeds dogs they should be immune to any checks at all ? Puppy buyers have to meet a criteria set by the breeder but the breeder doesn't have to comply with Animal Cruelty Acts or whatever they are called ?

Even on this forum I have read awful stories from people who have bought a puppy in good faith from a registered breeder only to then have problems.

Sure there are problems with the RSPCA but also there must be some form of independent body that has the power to oversee animal breeding and welfare.

Of course Im not saying that because someone breeds dogs they should be exempt from having to comply with certain requirements and ensure their animals are well looked after and I may even consider there is a valid case for some governing body to ensure all is well but I will never agree that giving warranted special police constable powers to a group which is not knowledgeable in breeding dogs and which actively works against breeders WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY is ever to be given a tick.

No system is infallible but every system has to be accountable and until such time as they are accountable and there are sufficient procedures in place to make people feel they have something in place to protect them from potential corruption and victimisation - no way.

Why should someone who breeds dogs have to be concerned about random visits from the RSPCA ? Because the RSPCA are not accountable and there is a potential for biased unfair un just decisions to be made in the name of the greater good - stopping people from breeding dogs so all sales are from rescue.Even if that has never happened or that it never ever does happen I believe that there has to be accountability.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Steve

[asal]

Honestly 50 dogs isn't an issue for some people. They won't all be brood bitches, some will be young ones being run on, some oldies, some show stock. It's easy to scream puppy farmer at someone but the only way to stop puppy farming is to ban all breeding. From a legal perspective there is no other way. For a family all working together 50 dogs isn't really ridiculous. You do need a certain number of dogs to maintain a good gene pool when you're breeding and with all the desexing laws and every other restrictive law being brought in you are going to see that most kennels will just have to be run this way, other wise there will not be enough animals to maintain the gene pools.

Not a dig at you personally but I can't understand how people can say they want to be able to own a pet but no one should be allowed to breed them. If we make breeding so legally restrictive that only commercial farms can afford to breed or ban breeding all together where do you think your next dog will come from?

Back in the 80's I went to one of the last big kennels remaining in my breed, I won't mention how many dogs where there more than 50 though and a long coated breed too. Everyone one of those dogs was beautifully groomed, fit, shinning with health and happy. They were beautiful dogs and their owner contributed a tremendous amount to the breed in this country. It was like heaven a swirling mass of beautiful happy dogs, each one loved and valued for there own self. Including the grand old lady of the place who was 17 and still very healthy.

It's not numbers it's care. That breeder and all those dogs are gone now but the legacy of all her work and effort is still alive and trotting around show rings and laying in whelping boxes nurturing the next generation. She was a Breeder not a puppy farmer but if you just look at the numbers and nothing else it would be easy to say other wise.

n there u have it in a nutshell.

the ethicals with one brood are not the people who make the real contribution to a breed it is the people like your friend and they will no longer be permitted, it is comming , really it has come. and this thread alone proves it

[Natsu chan]

Sparkycat why should dog breeders be treated any differently from anyone else who breeds any other animal? It's singling people out, and why should the RSPCA who have an agenda to stop breeding be the ones doing the inspecting? Surely any inspections of anything should always be done by an impartial party? Especially given the RSPCA have written into the law a free rein to do what ever they like without any ombudsman or indeed any responsibility for their actions, good bad or indifferent at all?

If you did this based on a persons sex, colour or religion there would be a massive out cry from the UN down!

Steve you should be proud of your dogs, they are representative of your love, time, care and commitment. Now if only you bred collies.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Natsu chan

[asal]

Not a dig at you personally but I can't understand how people can say they want to be able to own a pet but no one should be allowed to breed them. If we make breeding so legally restrictive that only commercial farms can afford to breed or ban breeding all together where do you think your next dog will come from?

Recently hubby and I purchased a Show Puppy, my mother was horrified that we werent getting her desexed, she accused us of wanting to breed her to make money off her suffering and pain. In her eyes people who breed any dog deserve to be hung drawn and quartered. I asked her where do you think your pet came from??? A cornflake packet????? Needless to say she did not like my comment and I did try to get her to see reason but as hubby says...someone let the gate open in the top paddock and let all the sheep out. so you might as well bang your head against a brick wall for all the good my reasoning did. She still thinks that we will be churning out puppy litters galore and that hubby and i will be rich.

see, you mum is being ethical.

and theres an awful lot of sheep no longer in the "top paddock" anymore

[asal]

People out there isn't it about time you stood up for rights and let the public know about these, to Quote Steve " Animal Rights Rat Bags."

It isn't just the animal rights people though. A lot of breeders seem want to foster attitude that you can't breed on anything other than a small scale and do it well.

When I have said on this forum that there is a place for good, ethical, registered breeders breeding sound, healthy, typey pure bred puppies for companion homes - testing them occassionally in the show ring but without the show ring being the whole point of breeding - it has been breeders on here who have howled me down and said I support puppy farmers and am anti registered breeder. I have found as much dispute amongst the registered breeder community on this issue as within the broader community.

So no, it isn't time I did any such thing. All the DoL breeders have managed to do for me on the issue is cause confusion, I'm not going to be answering any call to arms from them any time soon.

yes the majority of leaders of the unethical kill squads tend to be liddle old ladies with a small number. they THINK their shit dont stink and anyone who dont fit their mould needs to be eradicated and are too self possessed to twig they too are in the kill list once the dogs of war are unleashed as they too cant guarantee they will never get a problem pup so bingo.....unethical after all

but hey no sheep in to top paddock so no hope of getting through to them

Edited November 2, 2010 by asal

[asal]

People out there isn't it about time you stood up for rights and let the public know about these, to Quote Steve " Animal Rights Rat Bags."

It isn't just the animal rights people though. A lot of breeders seem want to foster attitude that you can't breed on anything other than a small scale and do it well.

When I have said on this forum that there is a place for good, ethical, registered breeders breeding sound, healthy, typey pure bred puppies for companion homes - testing them occassionally in the show ring but without the show ring being the whole point of breeding - it has been breeders on here who have howled me down and said I support puppy farmers and am anti registered breeder. I have found as much dispute amongst the registered breeder community on this issue as within the broader community.

So no, it isn't time I did any such thing. All the DoL breeders have managed to do for me on the issue is cause confusion, I'm not going to be answering any call to arms from them any time soon.

yes the majority of leaders of the unethical kill squads tend to be liddle old ladies with a small number. they THINK their shit dont stink and anyone who dont fit their mould needs to be eradicated and are too self possessed to twig they too are in the kill list once the dogs of war are unleashed as they too cant guarantee they will never get a problem pup so bingo.....unethical after all

but hey no sheep in to top paddock so no hope of getting through to them

n think about it, how many dog breeders even rate a bitch by her ability to self whelp AND raise her pups herself?

so few even give that a thought so many generations of ceasered pups that a vet on the payroll is a must for so many breeds now, is that really on the ethical radar?

used to be considered important to the early breeders but then there wasnt a vet at nearly every interesction like today.

but what about those out west of the divide??? any bitch sold that direction from such breeding is facing an uncertain future unless desexed.

detest the garden knome but that was one point it raised i agree with

[ellz]

n think about it, how many dog breeders even rate a bitch by her ability to self whelp AND raise her pups herself?

so few even give that a thought so many generations of ceasered pups that a vet on the payroll is a must for so many breeds now, is that really on the ethical radar?

used to be considered important to the early breeders but then there wasnt a vet at nearly every interesction like today.

but what about those out west of the divide??? any bitch sold that direction from such breeding is facing an uncertain future unless desexed.

detest the garden knome but that was one point it raised i agree with

Assumption much asal!!!!!

Sorry, but aside from the fact that I find it incredibly difficult to read your posts due to lack of punctuation and capital letters.....a lot of what you say is absolute crap based upon your own misconceptions and pre-conceived ideas of dog breeders.

[asal]

People out there isn't it about time you stood up for rights and let the public know about these, to Quote Steve " Animal Rights Rat Bags."

It isn't just the animal rights people though. A lot of breeders seem want to foster attitude that you can't breed on anything other than a small scale and do it well.

When I have said on this forum that there is a place for good, ethical, registered breeders breeding sound, healthy, typey pure bred puppies for companion homes - testing them occassionally in the show ring but without the show ring being the whole point of breeding - it has been breeders on here who have howled me down and said I support puppy farmers and am anti registered breeder. I have found as much dispute amongst the registered breeder community on this issue as within the broader community.

So no, it isn't time I did any such thing. All the DoL breeders have managed to do for me on the issue is cause confusion, I'm not going to be answering any call to arms from them any time soon.

yes the majority of leaders of the unethical kill squads tend to be liddle old ladies with a small number. they THINK their shit dont stink and anyone who dont fit their mould needs to be eradicated and are too self possessed to twig they too are in the kill list once the dogs of war are unleashed as they too cant guarantee they will never get a problem pup so bingo.....unethical after all

but hey no sheep in to top paddock so no hope of getting through to them

ha steve, a friend has a pup from one of em, champions all n you should see the bottom jaw. looks like a shark in dogs fur... have to get a pic..... its breeders consider themselves tops of the ethicals and have been pushing the hate for "backyarders n unethicals" from they day they got their memberships

suppose if i named the prefixes i might not see the nxt morning

[sparkycat]

Sparkycat why should dog breeders be treated any differently from anyone else who breeds any other animal? It's singling people out, and why should the RSPCA who have an agenda to stop breeding be the ones doing the inspecting? Surely any inspections of anything should always be done by an impartial party? Especially given the RSPCA have written into the law a free rein to do what ever they like without any ombudsman or indeed any responsibility for their actions, good bad or indifferent at all?

If you did this based on a persons sex, colour or religion there would be a massive out cry from the UN down!

Steve you should be proud of your dogs, they are representative of your love, time, care and commitment. Now if only you bred collies.

No I didn't mean to imply that just dog breeders be treated differently

And I wasn't aware that the RSPCA had an agenda to stop dog breeders. Is there evidence of this or is it just an urban myth ? - not having a go at you just asking...................

[ellz]

And I wasn't aware that the RSPCA had an agenda to stop dog breeders. Is there evidence of this or is it just an urban myth ? - not having a go at you just asking...................

It's fact unfortunately. They don't like dog shows and they don't like breeders.

[ellz]

suppose if i named the prefixes i might not see the nxt morning

To be honest, the way you're going, I'm surprised you've made it thus far!

[asal]

n think about it, how many dog breeders even rate a bitch by her ability to self whelp AND raise her pups herself?

so few even give that a thought so many generations of ceasered pups that a vet on the payroll is a must for so many breeds now, is that really on the ethical radar?

used to be considered important to the early breeders but then there wasnt a vet at nearly every interesction like today.

but what about those out west of the divide??? any bitch sold that direction from such breeding is facing an uncertain future unless desexed.

detest the garden knome but that was one point it raised i agree with

Assumption much asal!!!!!

Sorry, but aside from the fact that I find it incredibly difficult to read your posts due to lack of punctuation and capital letters.....a lot of what you say is absolute crap based upon your own misconceptions and pre-conceived ideas of dog breeders.

sweetie, just talk to your own vet. thats not assumptions, the rate of bitches who have never had a litter naturally is amazing and some are generations of such mums.

one breeders bitches wont even feed their pups past day 10 so they are hand fed from then, thats not assumptions. has been breeding for decades that breed. imagine a newbie starting out with a bitch pup from such lines. they will be wreaks trying to understand why the pups are hungry.

another friend out coonabarabran bred their bitch and discovered she couldnt deliver so had to drive 200 km to nearest vet. to learn 4 generations of ceasers behind her. does not look like assumptions to me anyway

[Moselle]

I notice that the OP hasn't had a lot to say that's for sure.

It really only seems to be Moselle that isn't "getting it" at the moment.

There really isn't that much to get.

Without evidence of mistreatment or neglect, there are no grounds to call the RSPCA.

It is not illegal to own a large number of dogs.

It is not illegal to own a large number of dogs of more than one breed.

It is not illegal to breed puppies and kittens to sell.

It is not illegal to breed more than one breed of puppy or kitten to sell.

It is not illegal to put up a sign (where council regulations permit such things) to sell anything, INCLUDING puppies and kittens.

It is not illegal to have a messy front yard. If a person has a messy front yard, this is a council matter and not an RSPCA matter.

It IS illegal to harrass people. Reporting somebody to the RSPCA on a regular basis without PROOF of neglect or mistreatment IS vexatious.

Making assumptions about what is behind a person's fences or doors is really not a clever way of making friends or influencing people.

If you really ARE concerned, then before you make the call to the RSPCA, by all means go and take a look under legitimate circumstances and make yourself aware of the PRECISE issues, not those that you think are lurking there.

You are the one that is not getting it; how many times already have I stipulated that I would have approached these breeders BEFORE making any complaints? sheesh....

[asal]

suppose if i named the prefixes i might not see the nxt morning

To be honest, the way you're going, I'm surprised you've made it thus far!

yes its best to keep your head down and say naught.

but i discovered that doesnt work either.

it was one of them that send the dogs of war and string copped the punishment for belonging to me.

so hiding doesnt work either.

somehow i suspect it was one of the same that sent em after tom couchman, that notice of motion was only the edge of the wheel thats been pushed in his direction. wish him luck its pretty traumatising to discover your on a hit list

in one way i do find it amusing that the kill mentality they have workd on for so long has had the effect i could see comming.

i do really real sad for judy guard.

but it wasnt me who set the wheels in motion and they are now and yes they are going to roll... over all ... including them

who is the loser?

the dogs and breeds that will be battling to survive into the future but how can you make those that started this going see, hate ingulfs all not just some?

Edited November 2, 2010 by asal

[ellz]

n think about it, how many dog breeders even rate a bitch by her ability to self whelp AND raise her pups herself?

so few even give that a thought so many generations of ceasered pups that a vet on the payroll is a must for so many breeds now, is that really on the ethical radar?

used to be considered important to the early breeders but then there wasnt a vet at nearly every interesction like today.

but what about those out west of the divide??? any bitch sold that direction from such breeding is facing an uncertain future unless desexed.

detest the garden knome but that was one point it raised i agree with

Assumption much asal!!!!!

Sorry, but aside from the fact that I find it incredibly difficult to read your posts due to lack of punctuation and capital letters.....a lot of what you say is absolute crap based upon your own misconceptions and pre-conceived ideas of dog breeders.

sweetie, just talk to your own vet. thats not assumptions, the rate of bitches who have never had a litter naturally is amazing and some are generations of such mums.

one breeders bitches wont even feed their pups past day 10 so they are hand fed from then, thats not assumptions. has been breeding for decades that breed. imagine a newbie starting out with a bitch pup from such lines. they will be wreaks trying to understand why the pups are hungry.

another friend out coonabarabran bred their bitch and discovered she couldnt deliver so had to drive 200 km to nearest vet. to learn 4 generations of ceasers behind her. does not look like assumptions to me anyway

DARLING, I've been breeding purebred dogs for 24 years and I know for a FACT that I don't tolerate consistently problematic lines and I do not take over from mother nature without a VERY good reason. I would also suggest that very few breeders enjoy having to spend a lot of money on sections that could be avoided. I would also hazard a guess that asking some vets may not be a good idea because some of them LOVE recommending unneccessary sections because it is a lovely source of ready revenue.

So, until you are a dog breeder and KNOW for a fact what goes on behind closed doors, you should probably just keep your assumptions to yourself because each and every time you put your fingers to your keyboard, you show yourself to be a nasty, spiteful person with a lot of opinion and very little real knowledge about certain issues.

We all KNOW you've had your issues with the RSPCA but to be honest, you are sounding more and more like that organisation and the gardener every day and that is of great concern IMO.