Puppy-mill Turned Kennel?

[ellz]

I agree with this, and I'd go so far as to say that if a breeder has litters of 6 or more pups, sells them for $1000-$1500 or more and isn't making a profit, then they either need to find another vet or healthier dogs to breed with. Because if all that money is being eaten up with veterinary expenses.....which seems to be the most given reason.....then those dogs should probably be neutered and the breeder maybe look further afield for breeding stock.

I have no idea why it's considered so bad to make a profit.......it used to be a hallmark of success. These days it seems to be a mark of shame.

It has NEVER (in recent times anyway) been considered a mark of success to make money from breeding puppies.....to break even is probably the most many breeders can ask for.

A litter of 5 is average for my breed. Price of one puppy for the stud fee, very close to price of a second puppy for freight to and from the mainland for the bitch to be mated. Close to the price of a third puppy for ultrasound and xray for the pregnant bitch, vaccinations, registrations, microchipping and desexing if done as a juvenile (many breeders are doing this now). Roughly the price of another puppy for food, worming, supplements and incidentals plus power for heatlamp and heat pad for the whelping box, lighting and room heating for the supervising humasn 24/7 for the first week, costs of printing, toys and other items for puppy kits. Possibly cost of advertising if litter not sold via other methods. And if you're really unlucky....the cost of another puppy for c-section and associated care for the bitch.

And even if there is some left over, most breeders absorb it back into "paying themselves back" for the other expenses which occur for dogs between litters. Once off things like hip, elbow and shoulder scores and DNA testing and annual things like eye testing by veterinary opthalmologists for all dogs in a line, and often pet littermates or older dogs which have been retired to pet homes but are still within the guidelines for testing due to age.

I can honestly say that some of my litters have been break-evens, but usually only those where I wasn't down the gurgler already by being able to use my own stud dog. And I've also had litters where I have paid the freight to send a bitch interstate for a breeding and she hasn't fallen pregnant. Those costs come out of my pocket with no reimbursement from the litter. And likewise, I've had bitches go interstate, come back in whelp and then lose the entire litter during a c-section so I've had the costs of the freight AND the c-section to cough up for.

My ONLY real "profit" from a litter was my litter of November last year. 9 Stafford puppies....BUT.....after costs came out, and taking into account the value of the bitch that was stolen.....surprisingly, there still wasn't a large profit left. The more puppies you have, the more they eat and unlike feeding older dogs, generally the more puppies you are feeding the prices of food doesn't actually get all that much less. I also keep my puppies until they are around 10 or 11 weeks (sometimes longer) and this too added to the expenses because of the extra wormings and in some cases, extra vaccinations which also don't get cheaper as the puppies get older.

So yes, it is definitely possible to make a small "profit" but it isn't generally a "clear profit" because if you're doing things properly, there is generally always something to buy, finish paying for, or reimburse yourself for.

BUT I wouldn't have it any other way.

[raz]

I have no idea why it's considered so bad to make a profit.......it used to be a hallmark of success. These days it seems to be a mark of shame.

I've never understood that either. If breeders continually go into the red to provide us with quality healthy pedigree dogs, they'll just stop breeding.

[Tim'sMum]

Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner.

Surely that alone rings alarm bells....and rather smacks of a puppy mill?

Sure, puppy mills are legal, but it certainly doesn't hurt for the RSPCA to be aware of their existence and to keep periodic checks on the welfare of the animals kept there.

Without marching into the premises, Heavy Paws, or anyone who cares about the welfare of dogs and cats, would have no idea if animals are sufferering there or not, particularly if the premises looks a bit 'feral'...so getting the RSPCA to check is a very sensible option.

If the owner has nothing to hide and the animals are kept in good conditions, have adequate food, water, shelter, vet care and exercise...then exactly what harm is done by them being checked out?

Honestly....I wonder if some of you are just posting to start yet another argument?

[ellz]

I have no idea why it's considered so bad to make a profit.......it used to be a hallmark of success. These days it seems to be a mark of shame.

I've never understood that either. If breeders continually go into the red to provide us with quality healthy pedigree dogs, they'll just stop breeding.

raz, they've/we've been doing it for years. For me, it's the enjoyment I get from the puppies and the fact that I only breed when I want something new for myself. After 24 years I've kind of grown accustomed to the idea of having to pay good money to participate in what isn't a cheap hobby.

I mean, look at people who play golf or sail boats or race cars as a hobby. I'd venture a guess that very few of them get much of a return despite outlaying good money to participate.

[raz]

raz, they've/we've been doing it for years. For me, it's the enjoyment I get from the puppies and the fact that I only breed when I want something new for myself. After 24 years I've kind of grown accustomed to the idea of having to pay good money to participate in what isn't a cheap hobby.

Sure for sure but if breeders make some money out of it and it keeps them going, goodluck to them I think. Do horse breeders make a profit?

[ellz]

raz, they've/we've been doing it for years. For me, it's the enjoyment I get from the puppies and the fact that I only breed when I want something new for myself. After 24 years I've kind of grown accustomed to the idea of having to pay good money to participate in what isn't a cheap hobby.

Sure for sure but if breeders make some money out of it and it keeps them going, goodluck to them I think. Do horse breeders make a profit?

Not all of them. Depends upon their level of involvement and the cost of their initial investments. And most "successful" horse breeders tend to go into it with big money behind them anyway.

There's an old saying, to make a small fortune from breeding horses, you have to start with a large one!

It's also a bit harder to compare because horse breeders have a different attitude as well....to many/most it IS a business. And given that most horses only have 1 foal per 12 months, it's hard to equate the expenses between horses and dogs.

From MY experience with my first foal though, vet fees were minimal compared to the vet fees for a litter of puppies. Registration fees were comparable. Branding for one foal is roughly the same as microchipping a couple of puppies. Vaccinations are cheaper and most can be self-administered. The biggest difference was feeding mother and foal for around 6 months as against 10 - 12 weeks. But I could now conceivably sell the filly as a partly-educated 2yo for over $3k. Not that I will.

[raz]

There's an old saying, to make a small fortune from breeding horses, you have to start with a large one!

Understandable.

So this is the bit I dont get - it's OK for a horse breeder to get into it big time and make a profit but the attitude seems to have cropped up here since I joined that if a registered breeder goes upscale and makes moneyin order to provide Jo Public with good dogs, they're automatically branded as a puppy farmer and/or hoarder.

Edited November 1, 2010 by raz

[Steve]

There's no shame in making money from breeding dogs.The problem lies in the small print and its a pretty big trap.

If I breed to make money then money becomes part of how I manage my dogs. No big deal if it motivates me to find the best price for vets, meds, food etc but it is if it becomes a situation where these things are compromised in order for me to make more money or spend less without the welfare of the animals remaining the first priority.

Businesses start and fail all the time - no big deal but when its live animals there is much more at stake and usually risk analysis and processes in place to protect the animals against things which compromise their welfare if things go belly up are not considered before someone decides to increase their dog numbers.

For me what makes the difference has nothing what ever to do with how many dogs you have or how many you breed or how much money you make or dont make.

Its about who you are.I know thats hard to define but a good breeder treats their approach and every thing they do - every decision they make based first and foremost on the welfare of the dogs, the goal means nothing with out that. Some people breed dogs to make a champ, others to pay the electricity or to give the kids the joy of watching animals being born,some breed for nothing more than to provide people with a great pet. They can all do it well or not. Its what they are prepared to compromise on that counts. For a good breeder its a way of life a philosophy almost like a religion and while they dont breed dogs to make money they deserve to make money and only an idiot would take up any pastime or activity with the intent of loosing money.

One big deal is that breeders are now taking their lead from idiots who have never bred dogs or people who have bred dogs for a particular goal without concern for what they have had to compromise on. We have been led like sheep until many of our own are bleating away at what we should and should not do with no real understanding of what it really does take to consistently breed great predictible pet puppies. Its the only pastime , occupation or hobby I can think of where the less you do it the better you think you are and the better people think you are. There's a big difference between someone who breeds a litter of puppies and a breeder.A breeder should be able to strut their stuff and promote themselves [their prefixes] and what they produce just as much as any designer brand and its time we stood proud of what we do and how we do it based on whats best for the dogs not what someone who doesnt breed dogs and who doesnt have even a tiny amount of our passion, knowledge or experience tells us we should. How on earth does a breeder take steps to breed out problems and produce puppies over 20 or so generations without having the numbers to be able to move? To take out what is not the best choices for breeding and use those which are?

Think it through - if the OP is really some disgusting filthy puppy farm why would they advertise their puppies on the side of the road and invite people to drive in and look and buy them? If they were such terrible puppy farming filthy people how long could they continue to sell puppies this way without someone who went in and buying a puppy legitimately complaining about it? How could they continue to advertise what they are doing for this length of time without council or someone pinging them if they were doing it without approval? Do you know what it takes to have your place perfect all the time in case someone drives in off the street unannounced to look you over and buy a puppy?

For God's sake this has gone far enough - start thinking for yourself and considering whats good for the breeds we love and the dogs we breed into the future.

We are already so over regulated that we cant do whats best for the species without being made to feel we are crimminals.Enough is enough.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Steve

[ellz]

There's an old saying, to make a small fortune from breeding horses, you have to start with a large one!

Understandable.

So this is the bit I dont get - it's OK for a horse breeder to get into it big time and make a profit but the attitude seems to have cropped up here since I joined that if a registered breeder goes upscale and makes moneyin order to provide Jo Public with good dogs, they're automatically branded as a puppy farmer and/or hoarder.

To be perfectly honest, and I dare say this will come back to bite me on the arse later......the biggest "issue" about making a profit from breeding dogs (or cats come to that) is that generally those who are making big profits are the ones who either house a large number of animals or who breed their animals almost continually. It is expensive enough to house a small number of animals in a comfortable manner so you either need to shell out a "large fortune" to provide suitable housing to give you the breeding stock sufficient to provide the puppies for the cash returns, or you have to drop your standards of care to a more affordable level so as to rake in the dollar return. The former is preferable to ANY breeder but largely unaffordable and I'll bet pounds to peanuts that nobody would admit to the latter. And of course, once you have invested in the former, or are guilty of the latter....you are almost committed to a large amount of breeding turnover to continue to afford to pay for it.

There is also the fact that very few of the large scale breeders health test appropriately, regularly or in fact....at all (and sadly, this also seems to apply to the horse breeders who dabble in breeding dogs to "supplement their horse breeding incomes").

And the more puppies that you breed in a larger scale setup, or the more you breed when you are cutting costs....the cheaper the price you can sell them for, so the more the consumer (pet shops, puppy buyers etc) will buy. And then the cycle begins again.

The more puppies you breed, the less you care about those you place, so your standards of screening either don't exist at all or decrease accordingly with each new litter. You have more puppies arriving all the time, so you can claim genetic diversity and never have to use an outside stud dog to get it.

Tell me how many reputable, responsible small hobby breeders would want to admit that they make a profit if the above is what they will almost invariably be compared to?????

[raz]

How on earth does a breeder take steps to breed out problems and produce puppies over 20 or so generations without having the numbers to be able to move? To take out what is not the best choices for breeding and use those which are?

That's what I was trying to say but you said it better

[~Anne~]

There's no shame in making money from breeding dogs.The problem lies in the small print and its a pretty big trap.

If I breed to make money then money becomes part of how I manage my dogs. No big deal if it motivates me to find the best price for vets, meds, food etc but it is if it becomes a situation where these things are compromised in order for me to make more money or spend less without the welfare of the animals remaining the first priority.

I totally agree. The image that dog breeders (and rescuers) should be going broke for thier hobby or love, is stupid at best. There is a danger though that the focus on money over-rides the good intentions.

[oakway]

There's an old saying, to make a small fortune from breeding horses, you have to start with a large one!

Understandable.

So this is the bit I dont get - it's OK for a horse breeder to get into it big time and make a profit but the attitude seems to have cropped up here since I joined that if a registered breeder goes upscale and makes moneyin order to provide Jo Public with good dogs, they're automatically branded as a puppy farmer and/or hoarder.

It can also depend on what breed you breed.

As you will all be aware that some breeds are more costly than others.

Having lived in a few different states it can also depend on the popularity of that breed in that state.

I think my self lucky if I can get $850 for a show prospect.

As ellz has tried to point out take out the expenses and keep a puppy for yourself also and their is nothing left for profit from 6 pups.

Most of us are now only breeding for replacement puppies.

[Steve]

Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner.

Surely that alone rings alarm bells....and rather smacks of a puppy mill?

Sure, puppy mills are legal, but it certainly doesn't hurt for the RSPCA to be aware of their existence and to keep periodic checks on the welfare of the animals kept there.

Without marching into the premises, Heavy Paws, or anyone who cares about the welfare of dogs and cats, would have no idea if animals are sufferering there or not, particularly if the premises looks a bit 'feral'...so getting the RSPCA to check is a very sensible option.

If the owner has nothing to hide and the animals are kept in good conditions, have adequate food, water, shelter, vet care and exercise...then exactly what harm is done by them being checked out?

Honestly....I wonder if some of you are just posting to start yet another argument?

Keeping periodic checks on them because they breed dogs conducted by a group who is against breeding and who is a quasi police force with no accountability - no way am I giving a tick to that especially as there is no definition which differentiates between them and any other person who breeds a litter of puppies.

If they are a boarding kennel and obviously they are they have much harder regs and more frequent checks anyway. If they are boarding animals with out the required permits they would have been shut down long ago and they wouldnt be advertising it either.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Steve

[ellz]

It can also depend on what breed you breed.

As you will all be aware that some breeds are more costly than others.

And having a very popular breed has its downside too. EVERYBODY knows what a Staffordshire Bull Terrier is (or seems to think they do anyway but that's a whole 'nuther story! ) and most people seem to think that they should have one.

But the reality is that reputable and responsible breeders screen very carefully and despite there being lots of people wanting a puppy, it can actually be very, very difficult to find GOOD homes for Staffords.

Too many dickheads and not enough brains!

[oakway]

It can also depend on what breed you breed.

As you will all be aware that some breeds are more costly than others.

And having a very popular breed has its downside too. EVERYBODY knows what a Staffordshire Bull Terrier is (or seems to think they do anyway but that's a whole 'nuther story! ) and most people seem to think that they should have one.

But the reality is that reputable and responsible breeders screen very carefully and despite there being lots of people wanting a puppy, it can actually be very, very difficult to find GOOD homes for Staffords.

Too many dickheads and not enough brains!

True

[raz]

I think my self lucky if I can get $850 for a show prospect.

As ellz has tried to point out take out the expenses and keep a puppy for yourself also and their is nothing left for profit from 6 pups.

Yep sure. And the breeders of the not popular breeds actually give pups away and really, I cant see how they can manage to keep going. Comes back to what Steve said about passion for it.

[oakway]

I think my self lucky if I can get $850 for a show prospect.

As ellz has tried to point out take out the expenses and keep a puppy for yourself also and their is nothing left for profit from 6 pups.

Yep sure. And the breeders of the not popular breeds actually give pups away and really, I cant see how they can manage to keep going. Comes back to what Steve said about passion for it.

Yep, for the love of the breed and to try and breed a better one next litter.

[Steve]

I breed Dorper sheep - purebred.The more I breed the better Im known and the more people who want my stock for breeding. I can put a sign up out front of my property and say "Sallson Dorper Stud" I can advertise in journals and magazines, I can have big sales and and I can advertise on the net. No one tells when I can and cant breed them, how often I can breed them - in fact one of the things taken into account with estimated breeding values is how young they are when they can have their lambs, how often they have lambs and how many lambs they have,how long they can have lambs for. I have one ewe here who is over 10 years old and still has two drops of twins per year like clockwork and is the best Mum ever. She has never lost a baby. She loves me and thinks she is a dog and she tells her babies to love me too.I will decide when its time to tell her she is too old to have any more babies because I know her and what is normal and I know about the breed and the species. Ive been breeding Dorpers now for around 8 years. If you ring and ask me how many rams I have or how many sheep I have Ive no worry with telling you and you assume they are well looked after with no need to have the RSPCA knowing where I am or what im doing so they can call in and do periodic checks on me. I sel a Ram for 10,000 and I can really strutt my stuff and feel pretty good about that especially as I know rather than cut costs I did everything in my power to ensure they are healthy and happy.

I breed Beagles [for 35 years] and Maremmas [ for 18 years] and there's not a chance Id put up a sign on my property which said "Sallson Beagles and Maremma stud"

Yet Im a much better dog breeder than I will ever be a sheep breeder. If you ask me how many dogs I own - I start to question why you would ask.

There's something really wrong with this AND ITS A DISGRACE THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN LED BY ANIMAL RIGHTS RAT BAGS TO GET US TO THIS POINT.

I would also like to add that in all the time I have visited this forum that this is the first time Ive taken the plunge and said out loud the name of my prefix which is also my business name.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Steve

[raz]

Yet Im a much better dog breeder than I will ever be a sheep breeder. If you ask me how many dogs I own - I start to question why you would ask.

There's something really wrong with this AND ITS A DISGRACE THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN LED BY ANIMAL RIGHTS RAT BAGS TO GET US TO THIS POINT.

Yep I know exactly what you mean. If someone asks me how many dogs a particular breeder has, I question why they would ask as well and tell them to ask the breeder themself if they think they have a reason to know.

[oakway]

I breed Dorper sheep - purebred.The more I breed the better Im known and the more people who want my stock for breeding. I can put a sign up out front of my property and say "Sallson Dorper Stud" I can advertise in journals and magazines, I can have big sales and and I can advertise on the net. No one tells when I can and cant breed them, how often I can breed them - in fact one of the things taken into account with estimated breeding values is how young they are when they can have their lambs, how often they have lambs and how many lambs they have,how long they can have lambs for. I have one ewe here who is over 10 years old and still has two drops of twins per year like clockwork and is the best Mum ever. She has never lost a baby. She loves me and thinks she is a dog and she tells her babies to love me too.I will decide when its time to tell her she is too old to have any more babies because I know her and what is normal and about I know about the breed and the species. Ive been breeding Dorpers now for around 8 years. If you ring and ask me how many rams I have or how many sheep I have Ive no worry with telling you and you assume they are well looked after with no need to have the RSPCA knowing where I am or what im doing so they can call in and do periodic checks on me. I sel a Ram for 10,000 and I can really strutt my stuff and feel pretty good about that especially as I know rather than cut costs I did everything in my power to ensure they are healthy and happy.

I breed Beagles [for 35 years] and Maremmas [ for 18 years] and there's not a chance Id put up a sign on my property which said "Sallson Beagles and Maremma stud"

Yet Im a much better dog breeder than I will ever be a sheep breeder. If you ask me how many dogs I own - I start to question why you would ask.

There's something really wrong with this AND ITS A DISGRACE THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN LED BY ANIMAL RIGHTS RAT BAGS TO GET US TO THIS POINT.

I would also like to add that in all the time I have visited this forum that this is the first time Ive taken the plunge and said out loud the name of my prefix which is also my business name.

You never said a truer word.

People out there isn't it about time you stood up for rights and let the public know about these, to Quote Steve " Animal Rights Rat Bags."