Kustali Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 It absolutely amazes me how Vets can have different opinions on when the bitches are supposedly due to whelp!! Sway, that is a great example of when to calculate their actual due date. A friend of mine just used frozen from my dog on their bitch, the vet told him she was due 63 days from the implant....which is 65 days from ovulation!! The pups were born by c-section 63 days after ovulation, 61 days from implant, perfectly healthy. If he had of waited and gone by the vets advice it might not have gone that way. Mastini, was that day 60 from the actual implant?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Mastini's bitch was mated Dec 2nd - am I calculate that to be ovulated on the 29 Nov, would be due 31st Jan. (going on the above pic) Reading back over the posts I wonder if she was ready on the night of the 30th and didn't progress? Was restless the night of the 30th, was clingy on the 31st also spiked a temp that night, dark bloody discharge on the 1st - cesar on the 1st Once a pups is dead and close to it's whelping date it breaks down very quickly, and I suspect this was the dark bloody discharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Where you taking her temp or prog testing to know what day to take her in for her elective cesar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burdy Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) This is great SwaY and very helpful I see all the signs now, at the time though I didn't as I had the 3rd, being day 63, in my head for her to be due as no one had told me otherwise and signs were rather vague and speratic. My vet told me that the pup had died a minimum of 36 hours prior and I did query him on had I have brought her in on the friday or saturday prior would that pup have survived. He said if I had of brought her in then they would not have touched her as she was to early. My only question is that it would not of made any difference if I had of got the dates right as out of 8 pups only one was almost to term, the rest were at varying stages from about two weeks on, all but that one were not formed properly. So even if I had of had the date right, those other pups were already dead but there were no signs until the 31st when her temp went up and the 1st when she got the discharge. I had been monitoring her temp from 2 weeks prior to due date with no drop, only the high temp on 31st. I had rung the vet as soon as she got the temp and was told it was weather related (it was above 40 for two days here at the time) wet her down and monitor for 20 mins maybe give asprin. I told him she was already wet and under a fan and was told to wait. I did and her temp came down and she settled, that was approx 10pm on 31st. I then rang again at 1:45am on the 1st to say she had the black discharge, was told to hold out until she actually started to pant and nest etc or til morning as if I took her in then it would only be him and I and we could run into trouble with pups and her working on our own. I waited up with her for about half hour and wasn't happy, got the better of me so I phoned again (you always get paging service) but my call was not returned with in half an hour so rang the other vets, she said she agreed with him and to wait until she was having contractions. By 4am I phoned again left another message. 8am I phoned and said I was on my way to the surgery with her. He got there at 8:45am and the rest is history... Really the whole thing was a complete disaster and the more I try to find answers the more I feel I f**ed up The repro vet has now told me that he highly recomends mating her on her next season due to her now higher chance of pyometra but I'm not feeling very confident about it all. Edited February 5, 2011 by Mastini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 What day was her prog level was around 15? Where you calling the vet who did the AI in the middle of the night or a regular vet? I'm not liking the sound of who ever it is you were calling. Sorry for all the questions, im also trying to learn from what has happened here. How is Mina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancyk Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 With Neapolitan Mastiffs it is 61 days from implant or first natural mating. If puppies are not out on day 62 you must get them out or lose the litter. It is not unusual for females with a large litter (10+) to start at day 57. I have chartered temperatures on every litter we have - and found it is of no use at all. Some bitches give no signs whatsover, temperature or behaviour. I had one girl laying on my lap on day 60, had my hand on her stomache and felt nothing other than the occasional puppy wiggle. After an hour I got up to prepare for bed, turned and saw her sitting up on the lounge and as she went to get off a puppy dropped out - thank heavens it was a leather lounge. That involved a very quick trip to the whelping room with mother and puppy. Neapolitan Mastiffs are a very stoic breed and will give no indication they are in pain, unless it is very, very bad. Some never "nest", pant or even go off their food. Each one is different. A coloured discharge - black or green means immediate caesarian or lose puppies. It is a real learning curve whelping Mastino - past experience with other breeds simply doesn't apply in most cases. Sherilyn Allens book has a good section that is helpful and Karen Hedburg is a NSW vet who is experienced with giant breeds and will tell you 61 days. Sorry you and your girl had such a bad experience and hope everything goes well next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burdy Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) SwaY - I took her to my own vet for prog from day 1 to about day 8, results were faxed to the repro vet and they let me know when they wanted her there. I took her to the repro vet every day after that until she was mated on day 12. They didn't give me prog results just told me when to bring her in. The vet I phoned that night was my local vet, the repro vet is 3 hours away. Is 15 ovulation? Thanks Nancy - definately a learning curve, not just in Mastini but in breeding in general. You can never learn enough in either. I think this has also taught my vet to listen to me and my instincts and when I say I think something is not right then its not bloody right. I still keep coming back to the fact that even if I had of got her in earlier only 1 of those pups may have survived - the rest were not formed, they had died long before. Plus I queried him on this as he was removing those alien looking things from her and he said there is no way he would touch a bitch prior to day 61 with out her showing major signs of being in whelp and in trouble, he was unhappy about doing it then as she was not to term, told me on the phone you dont want to take them out early as they wont be ready and may not survive. As soon as I saw the discharge I knew there was at least one dead pup in there. I now know for next time to be a hell of alot more assertive and find a new vet ;) All this info is great for future reference, thanks and I hope it helps others to refer to as well. I have diarised everything that you guys have said here as its been a great help. My previous breed bred like rabbits and whelped the same so all this is new to me. Edited February 5, 2011 by Mastini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 If she was due on the 3rd he (regular vet) would be thinking they are 60 days, in fact they were 64 days, Over cooked! Sorry to sound harsh but you should have stuck with your repo vet, I don't like the sound of your normal vet. I have heard good things about Dr Girling, I would have been calling him and not the normal vet. Did Dr Girling not give you a due date? The days were not calculated right, pups were over cooked and they break down by the minute! Within 24 hours a dead pups skin starts to peel away and they get all slimey and jelly like, to me this what you are describing. How were they not formed, what did they look like? I'm no expect but Pups have been born naturally and by cesar on day 59 and survived many, many times over. You may have to supplement, but they will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Thanks for the information Nancy, always great to have an experienced persons views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burdy Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Yes that is what i was saying to him.. that one pup may have survived, it looking normal, very big - massive infact. But the others were of varying sizes, black (would have been an all grey litter) and disgusting - not formed properly, some where just blobs with no distinguishing features and a couple a bit bigger with funny half stumpy legs etc. So even if she had of given some signs or symptoms earlier the litter still would have been lost There is still some other reason for the death of these pups besides me not getting dates right, they started dying way before the 30th. No one spoke to me about dates - I guess they assumed that I would know it not being my first litter. But was my first Neapolitan litter, however I now know different thanks to you and Nancy. I now agree that I should of called Dr Girling but all things are good in hind sight. My vet is normally excellent it is just my rotten luck to have his not so good partner on call that night. Same with the other surgery I also called, one vet is great but the new young girl not so great and happened to be on call that night, at least she answered the phone but was of no real use. Unfortunately where we are there is not a great deal of choice and calling Dr Girling at that hour and travelling the 3 hours to get to him would not have made one bit of difference to the end result. I have made an appointment with my vet for this afternoon to discuss what happened and take the notes I have from the information given here so we are on the same page for next time. Sorry SwaY but I blame myself enough for this and yes maybe that one, maybe two, pups could have been saved but it doesn't explain the other 6 or 7? I hope now I am armed with enough information on prog testing and date calculating to give my next litter a much higher chance at survival. I am just embarrassed, sad and a bit over it now . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 But the others were of varying sizes, black (would have been an all grey litter) and disgusting - not formed properly, some where just blobs with no distinguishing features and a couple a bit bigger with funny half stumpy legs etc. So even if she had of given some signs or symptoms earlier the litter still would have been lost confused.gif There is still some other reason for the death of these pups besides me not getting dates right, they started dying way before the 30th. How do you know they started dying before the 30th did you do an autopsy? I would have with a litter loss like that. My take on it.. The other puppies that died were breaking down hence not formed right, they were liquefying - Dark black discharge. Just imagine something dead being cooked in 38degrees for 3-4days, it does not stay an identifiable object for long. I'm no expert but I suspect if they had of been taken out on time they would have been fine. I would be speaking to Dr Girling and not your normal vet, that is his field of expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kustali Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 By sharing your bad experience with this breeding we are all learning so thanks for bringing it to the board to discuss. I hope with your next litter you are armed with more knowledge than before and i hope the bitch carries the litter to term and is delivered on time by an experienced Vet who will listen to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kustali Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Bumping for someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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