Bitches Fighting

[ruthless]

Growing up I was always told it was much better to have two bitches then two dogs, esp two entire males..... Though over the years I started to notice that it might not actually be the case and then after being a member of this forum I have read things to confirm my doubts.

From : Scott & Fuller's "Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog" (P165) :

Females rarely get into actual fights with each other and seem to establish dominance largely on the basis of vocalisation and threats. On the other hand, males often get into real fights, in which superior size is, of course, important in determining the outcome. Similarly, males are likely to make actual attacks on females rather than being intimidated by bluff, and the result is usually dominance by the male ...

Just putting this here out of interest and for anyone who might like to discuss.

I know my experience is limited compared to a lot of people here, but that's how things roll in our house. Trixie and Angel have only ever had one tiny squabble that was easily broken up and there were no injuries. Chopper and Trixie on the other hand have had about four fight to the death type fights. They only run together when we're home so luckily we've always been here to pull them apart. All three are desexed. Thankfully we've been fight free for a while, but I don't trust them together even though they wrestle well and snuggle together. Chopper had a go at Ivan a few times too, but Ivan was incredibly dominant and not a fighter so they were mostly noise.

Interesting. I can't say I agree with any of it. How many people have had a dog/bitch fight? I can't say in all my years I have had any serious issues between dogs of different sexes

[Aidan3]

but bella is still bossy and i chastise her for her behaviour...

i've read this thread from top to bottom and i've taken mental notes --- i will change my behaviour as regard corrections...

Thanks for the kind words Re: the above, it's something to treat with caution and I'm glad you've given it some thought. At the end of the day we don't want to make anything worse, it seems obvious but that is our primary objective, not to do any harm. Dogs are remarkable problem solvers, so if we block off one avenue for easing their tension (ritualised or actual aggression) then they will find another way. Much better to solve the problem for them if we can, and IMHO that involves facilitating a win-win for everyone. Good professional help can be invaluable here, but the basic idea is to reinforce the behaviours we want and that satisfy everyone in terms of safety, position, order and clear expectations. Basic "manners" training can go a long way, not giving in when dogs demand attention, being able to cue dogs to go to mats or crates, having them go to places and politely waiting for dinner, strong recalls, door manners etc

[lanabanana]

In response to the query about male and female issues: My mum had a stafford bitch and a mixed breed male who always used to fight. But the female was the aggressor, and she had begun with another bitch initially and just continued the aggression with the next dog who was a male.

I dont know whether it is breed based or not, but we have always owned staffy x's and never had issues...always one of each (male and female). We currently own a lab x (we assume) and a foxy/shih tzu mix and they run together 24/7. Barney (big boy) is super patient with our wee girl Pippi. I have noticed she can "switch on" at times when playing gets too exciting, or she doesnt want him to have a toy or a pat but it never gets to fighting. I think this is partially due to Barney. he doesn't seem to recognise that she is trying to get aggro and thinks she is still playing so he just plays with her (if I were Pippi Id be annoyed because there is nothing worse than trying to fight with a male and them not fighting back LMAO) either that or he just doesnt care. In sayign that, aggro is not the right term for what Pippi does. Eitherway it never escalates and the two of them are best buds and always together.

Though, this thread is making me a tad paranoid. I trutst them together fully, and Barney is always very patient and tolerant of Pippi but after reading some of these posts I am a little paranoid. At the end of the day, if Barney did decide to "go" pippi, she has got no chance. He could crush her with one bite. I am just very thankful that he adores her and thinks she is the best thing since dog food LOL. But it is something I am aware of could possibly happen and the minute I see any behaviour that may become an issue, they will be separated while we are not home (just hopefully it doesnt happen when we are not around - I woudl hate to separate them now as they pine when they are apart)

[Little Gifts]

Lana I think you have to trust what you know about your dogs to date. You can't predict or prevent everything. The only other issue we ever had was a rescue staffy and her litter who took a disliking to a particular female pup. I was wanting to keep the pup but given I'd already determined the mother would stay with me that pup was rehomed. She never hurt the pup but growled at it to stay away from her.

So now to have a 3 year old desexed staffy bitch who is a little unpredictable is a bit of a shock, but the issues showed up when she was about 6 months old so we have worked on managing them. She generally is very social with other dogs and people and incredibly cuddly but there is something inside her that causes her to lose the plot if she feels she is not getting her share of something or if she gets overly excited. I see it in her face and have to caution her immediately to make her refocus. And even after the fights she and the older dog will lie next to each other sniffing each others wounds so I know it isn't a true hate fest. The test for us will be after the old girl passes on as we will attempt to go back to fostering but only younger males. If she remains the same then we will know it is an ongoing problem and not related to a specific dog.

[ellz]

I'm really not convinced it IS a breed thing. I had 2 American Cocker bitches who tried to add to the statistics one day, and in doing so, they managed to include an entire male who ended up finishing his show career as a result of the back injury he received trying to get away from them.

And I have to say that whilst the Stafford bitch is the biggest problem in the issues I have here at the moment, the American Cocker bitch isn't backwards about having a few things to say to the Stafford either.

[Silverblue]

Agree Ellz,

While we do tend to see a awful lot of a certain breed at work that have lived together for years & then all of a sudden turned on each other & yes, 99% are females.

I have a visiting Cocker here at the moment, visits quiet often, on the first occasion her & My female Welsh Springer had a fight, luckly I was there to break it up.

Now I can barely have these 2 bitches in thier crates in the same room, this has been going on now for almost 12 months, the DO hold grudges & they DO remember.

My Welsh is fine with my other entire Cocker bitch, but as everyone who has 2 entire bitches together I am always mindful & never leave them together if I go out, especially since my Cocker had a litter and I have kept another bitch.

You just need to be aware that it can happen.

[Tatelina]

Wow...all of these stories really makes me appreciate ethical registered breeders who run undesexed dogs/bitches together to be able to breed.

[Erny]

Wow...all of these stories really makes me appreciate ethical registered breeders who run undesexed dogs/bitches together to be able to breed.

Huh

[OSoSwift]

Wow...all of these stories really makes me appreciate ethical registered breeders who run undesexed dogs/bitches together to be able to breed.

Huh

Me too???

My dog tried to kill her Grandmother, but when she was in season she was MORE than happy for the male to be running with her. Don't see your point??

[Sayreovi]

Wow...all of these stories really makes me appreciate ethical registered breeders who run undesexed dogs/bitches together to be able to breed.

Huh

Me too???

My dog tried to kill her Grandmother, but when she was in season she was MORE than happy for the male to be running with her. Don't see your point??

I think Tatelina was talking about running entire bitches together and entire males together not females and males together, and the added risks of running together same sex entire pairs especially where bitches are concerned.

[OSoSwift]

Wow...all of these stories really makes me appreciate ethical registered breeders who run undesexed dogs/bitches together to be able to breed.

Huh

Me too???

My dog tried to kill her Grandmother, but when she was in season she was MORE than happy for the male to be running with her. Don't see your point??

I think Tatelina was talking about running entire bitches together and entire males together not females and males together, and the added risks of running together same sex entire pairs especially where bitches are concerned.

Oh yep okay, now I understand

[BowWow]

OMG this thread scares the living daylights out of me. I have three dogs - an older Staffie, Bull Terrier female (fixed) and her (unfixed) daughter who turned one today. The last week the little one has taken to savagely attacking both my older (very gentle natured) dogs. Yes I understand the value of behaviorists and would love to take this path if a) I could afford it and b) I thought it would settle the situation once and for all but I don't think that's the case. I just think the pup I chose to keep is a strong-willed and very dominant bitch. I kept her because she was the alert and plucky one right from the start with all the attributes I was seeking, but she's turning out to be a bossy little nightmare with the other dogs (not me though). Luckily she's only little right now but she'll grow and then I don't like to think of the damage she could cause. I'll seek solutions in the interim but will probably end up rehoming her as I have young kids in the house and can't risk them being exposed to fighting Bull Terrier bitches. It looks like this one intends being boss and scares both the other dogs no end. Luckily they don't retaliate otherwise things would turn nasty very quickly. Certainly this thread makes me rethink my original spaying and professional help approach.

[MelissaS]

Interesting. I can't say I agree with any of it. How many people have had a dog/bitch fight? I can't say in all my years I have had any serious issues between dogs of different sexes

My oldest female rescue will very occasionally start a fight with my oldest male dog.Most of the time they get on great and this has only happened a few times.

However, each time she started the fight and once after I broke it up she went back for more. She is much more intent and aggressive than my two male dogs.

They are seperated when I am not home and are great most of the time.I know the signs with her now such as a fixated stare or snarl etc... So it is up to me to prevent any situation arising.

She is great with our friends dogs visiting and good with puppies.She is also fine in dog park or neutral territory and seems very relaxed.

She does at times resource guard and that includes me.It was a real shock at first for me as I had never experienced this before even with my male rottys.

I now have learnt how to manage her, it has been a massive learning curve and I am still learning- I have learnt not to put her in any situation that involves risks.

Edited October 30, 2010 by MelissaS

[geo]

When i was younger our family had mother and daughter boxers, loved eahc other and would play all the time together but jealousy issues like attention or food could turn the situation quite qiuckly and they did have several fights, but within minutes of it stopping were cuddled up on the bed.

It's all about knowing your dog inside out and not letting them get into that position to want to fight.

Currently if my 15month old male is playing with a toy and myself, our 4 year old bitch likes to bully him into submission, which he thinks is a game 'til she slowly raises the stakes each time they clash, so it's one on one for toy time.

[Tatelina]

Wow...all of these stories really makes me appreciate ethical registered breeders who run undesexed dogs/bitches together to be able to breed.

Huh

Me too???

My dog tried to kill her Grandmother, but when she was in season she was MORE than happy for the male to be running with her. Don't see your point??

I think Tatelina was talking about running entire bitches together and entire males together not females and males together, and the added risks of running together same sex entire pairs especially where bitches are concerned.

Hehe..yes that's what I meant. 90% of the time I work with desexed dogs, and have never lived with undesexed dogs for long enough for anyone to go into season so I have a new appreciation for breeders who have to deal with a lot of stuff that I haven't considered!

Another point to add to the 'reasons to not backyard breed' list. ;)

[cowanbree]

. Certainly this thread makes me rethink my original spaying and professional help approach.

Desex her quickly before it gets worse and you may be fine. Desexing does help

[dogbesotted]

i have had dog and bitch fights. they are all terrifying. I have astonished myself with how i have managed to serarate fighting dogs by myself. Alwasy walk about with long leashes tied about my waist..

the dogs always seem to posture and carry on about it more.. the bitchs just in and at it with only the smallest hint before hand. The bitches were silent deadly balls of fur with a paw, head or tail poking out from time to time.. the guys always leaped about more.altho Dennys Dog and his litter brother Guiness mcGuinness did serious damage to each other. DD would posture salk about etc ect and finally stick his silly head thru the fence.. Dennys would get chomped about the head .. only the suprelorin implant made any difference... and that was in the second year.

at the moment i amn running bitches aprt as Tess new foster does not like other bitches sigh.. there is frequently a fly in the ointment in multi dog households

H

[halfthewords]

I don't personally know anyone whose bitches have fought to the death. But then, not many of my friends have more than one dog.

Our two desexed Min Pin bitches squabble occasionally. It's never serious, generally just noise and air-snapping. The younger, more submissive one (Cleo) usually starts it with a "look" and the older dominant bitch (Mischa) never misses a chance to put Cleo in her place. She tends to pin her down and just growl at her. It almost always is triggered around food/attention; if one is on the couch, the other one tends to bugger off. But if Cleo is higher than Mischa, she growls at her and it's on. They're 7 and 5 respectively and most of the time they are best friends - sleep together, play. We did have one incident where our elderly Bichon bitch Jessie (RIP) got stuck into Mischa while we weren't home; I found a flap of skin on a rather large wound on her neck. First and only incident like that.

Our two desexed boys get along like a house on fire. Never argue, grumble, growl. They practically sleep entwined. :D Carl is the alpha so the others are careful around him but he's a very fair and tolerant guy. Our pack goes Carl --> Mischa --> Jag --> Cleo. Poor Cleo.

[asal]

. Certainly this thread makes me rethink my original spaying and professional help approach.

Desex her quickly before it gets worse and you may be fine. Desexing does help

unfortunately it doesnt always work, i know a lady had to rehome her pup? yep wsnt even 12 months old. desexed n all and she wanted to KILL her origianl bitch. she was NO lady.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

. Certainly this thread makes me rethink my original spaying and professional help approach.

Desex her quickly before it gets worse and you may be fine. Desexing does help

I spoke to two vets, both very experienced vets and one a behaviourist, and asked them this question when we were having trouble. Both said that in our situation it would not help and may even make matters worse.