Bitches Fighting

[asal]

Not that horses are dogs mind you but in the interests of "female " dynamics......I had two mares kept side by side with only a hot wire tape and pigtail electric fence between them for years (on and off) sometimes they had proper fencing together but when I was moving house the night before I foolishly decided to take the white tape between them down to save myself time the next day.

Result..... a very violent encounter which I think would have been a fight to the death had I not driven them apart. Very dangerous and difficult to break up a fight. Surprising, as there was never any "face pulling' or "ears laid back" between them over the fence??

just had the same thing happen, one a three yr old the other 5 and three times her size. the three yr old flattened her ears and told the older mare move or ill double barrel u. older girl pinned ears and backed up double barrelling. the idiot 3 yr old did the same . so bum to bum gattling guns.

n so quick there wasnt a thing i could do to intervene. nxt thing the 3 yr old is hopping on 3 legs and ho so sorry for herself. she has two full hoofprints on her and luckily no broken bones but lame for a week. i doubt she has learned her lesson as she was busy threatening again over the fence yesterday?

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I only have desexed bitches - I own two and am fostering one atm. I lost my dominant bitch in July. I haven't had any troubles for a couple of years but I really prefer to foster and own male dogs, generally easier to manage I find.

I've had 4 desexed bitches at one time over the years and 3 yrs ago had trouble with 1 foster female who after a few months decided to have a go at a very gentle male foster. Once I came home and worked out what had happened, she was immediately shipped out and so was he. Both were adopted but I would not have let her go to a multiple dog situation as she couldn't be trusted I felt.

More recently another female foster that I'd had for 8 months suddenly turned on my elderly maltese and began seeking him out to have a go at him, I suspect she was trying to change her place in the pack as my dominant female had become unwell at the same time.

I immediately kept the female foster separated, outside and she now lives in a new home.

I would not tolerate any dog that carried out a vicious attack or killed another, no matter how long I'd had them, they would be euthanased - wouldn't care if they were young, won't tolerate it and won't pass them on.

Edited October 29, 2010 by dogmad

[corvus]

It got to the point in my parents' house that one dog was put to sleep for the other's safety. I will never have two bitches in the same house again unless they are wildly different in size. Granted, the dog that was causing the problems for us was a rescue and apparently didn't know about bite inhibition, which is why she was PTS rather than rehomed, but that was beside the point when it got to critical mass. There is nothing more horrible than seeing an animal you love trying to kill another animal you love. It is the stuff of nightmares and not a risk I am comfortable with now that I've seen it go wrong for myself.

[Erny]

Growing up I was always told it was much better to have two bitches then two dogs, esp two entire males..... Though over the years I started to notice that it might not actually be the case and then after being a member of this forum I have read things to confirm my doubts.

From : Scott & Fuller's "Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog" (P165) :

Females rarely get into actual fights with each other and seem to establish dominance largely on the basis of vocalisation and threats. On the other hand, males often get into real fights, in which superior size is, of course, important in determining the outcome. Similarly, males are likely to make actual attacks on females rather than being intimidated by bluff, and the result is usually dominance by the male ...

Just putting this here out of interest and for anyone who might like to discuss.

[ellz]

Females rarely get into actual fights with each other and seem to establish dominance largely on the basis of vocalisation and threats. On the other hand, males often get into real fights, in which superior size is, of course, important in determining the outcome. Similarly, males are likely to make actual attacks on females rather than being intimidated by bluff, and the result is usually dominance by the male ...

Just putting this here out of interest and for anyone who might like to discuss.

Hmmmmmmm.......I have one word for this. bull*cough*shit!

Disclaimer: My opinion from my own personal experience. Others may be different.

[Aidan3]

Just putting this here out of interest and for anyone who might like to discuss.

Hahaha, that's almost cheeky!

I can get that one from my local library, certainly a very good reference if not quite outdated in places. I'd say that was more a reflection of the way dominance was thought about at the time, rather than a reflection of what dogs actually do. Do they offer any empirical data to support that view?

For that matter, does anyone have any empirical data to support the common view in this thread? I must admit that I don't.

[ellz]

Anecdotal evidence does it for me I'm afraid! :p

[Erny]

Just putting this here out of interest and for anyone who might like to discuss.

Hahaha, that's almost cheeky!

I can get that one from my local library, certainly a very good reference if not quite outdated in places. I'd say that was more a reflection of the way dominance was thought about at the time, rather than a reflection of what dogs actually do. Do they offer any empirical data to support that view?

For that matter, does anyone have any empirical data to support the common view in this thread? I must admit that I don't.

Not intended to be - it was something I mentally question marked at the time I read it but never seemed to find a moment to discuss it with my (then) tutor.

I put it up in part also because of comments like that of Ash & Elar :

Growing up I was always told it was much better to have two bitches then two dogs, esp two entire males.....

and suspect that in days gone by this was a common belief, perhaps because of references such as Scott and Fuller. Yes - things change, as does our knowledge and experience. I've periodically puzzled on what Scott & Fuller had written though.

Empirical data? I agree that Scott & Fuller's view does relate to their discussions on dominance, but intra-familial aggression generally is about dominance, IMO. Their opinion (conclusion) regarding the female/female and male/male relationships does seem to have a bearing back to their study outcomes.

Admittedly, I find Scott & Fuller a tad awkward/heavy to read in certain sections, and I find their demonstrated study tables difficult to understand.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Erny

[cowanbree]

Interesting. I can't say I agree with any of it. How many people have had a dog/bitch fight? I can't say in all my years I have had any serious issues between dogs of different sexes

[Aidan3]

Empirical data? I agree that Scott & Fuller's view does relate to their discussions on dominance, but intra-familial aggression generally is about dominance, IMO. Their opinion (conclusion) regarding the female/female and male/male relationships does seem to have a bearing back to their study outcomes.

Oh yes, I'm not arguing against dominance being a factor, just their treatment of dominance (primarily relating it to sex, size, assuming that males fight more seriously etc). I didn't ever own the book, just borrowed it from the library a few times (a long time ago too), but my recollection was that they gathered quite a lot of empirical data on socialisation, imprinting, fear periods etc but I couldn't recall anything specifically on this topic.

I knew there would be something in the literature and I found it - Sherman et al (1996) reported that entire male dogs were more likely to fight, but of dogs in the same household, females were likely to fight more seriously.

[Erny]

Empirical data? I agree that Scott & Fuller's view does relate to their discussions on dominance, but intra-familial aggression generally is about dominance, IMO. Their opinion (conclusion) regarding the female/female and male/male relationships does seem to have a bearing back to their study outcomes.

Oh yes, I'm not arguing against dominance being a factor, just their treatment of dominance (primarily relating it to sex, size, assuming that males fight more seriously etc). I didn't ever own the book, just borrowed it from the library a few times (a long time ago too), but my recollection was that they gathered quite a lot of empirical data on socialisation, imprinting, fear periods etc but I couldn't recall anything specifically on this topic.

I knew there would be something in the literature and I found it - Sherman et al (1996) reported that entire male dogs were more likely to fight, but of dogs in the same household, females were likely to fight more seriously.

Perhaps this is the difference? IE That Scott & Fuller's studies related to dogs not "of same household" (so to speak). That's if that was the case. I'd need to refresh my reading to check what the living arrangements were of the dogs in that study (assuming it is expressed).

ETA: No - I don't think so .... from the sounds of it, the dogs were familiar. I'd be surprised if Scott and Fuller would have studied dominance within pairs and/or groups of dogs who were not as a pack.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Erny

[Diva]

Interesting. I can't say I agree with any of it. How many people have had a dog/bitch fight? I can't say in all my years I have had any serious issues between dogs of different sexes

I've never had serious issues between any combination of genders, touch wood, but certainly not a male fighting a bitch. I've always considered that the least likely of risks, maybe not so if it was a clear resource guarding issue, but certainly in terms of dominance.

[Aidan3]

Some interesting reading, cites another study supportive of the anecdotal reports in this thread:

http://www.animalsandsociety.org/assets/li...04jaws07048.pdf

[persephone]

In my previous life as a trainer of guide dogs.. we had a few rules. One of these was that if a dog attacked a bitch, that dog was rejected then & there. It was expected that dogs did not initiate fights with bitches . I hadn't actually thought about or questioned it until this thread :p..That was what I was taught...

It didn't happen very often at all , so perhaps it was a good rule ? We stuck to it, anyway .

[Skruffy n Flea]

when i was looking for a doggy bud for bella, i'd made enquiries with rescuers/foster carers and there was one woman that gave to me her time and imparted some of her some 20 years experience in knowledge...

my girl, bella, a desexed JRxmalt, had just turned 1 year and this woman's advice was that i'd be best served meeting and introducing a male [because bitches fight for survival rights --- not verbatim but essentially the gist] and that a dog slightly older than her would most benefit her in terms of behaviour growth...

i was reticent but also a novice --- 12 months now since we met, introduced and adopted byron, a kind of 3 yo who has progressed in leaps and bounds --- they are great buds and we are very happy in that regard. earlier this year we introduced a pound kitty; her and bella are also great buds but byron is somewhat aloof and not objectionable...

bella, despite her size and 3-inch legs, is surprisingly strong, muscular, heavy pawed and rude --- she bosses byron and rouses on bobbie [the kitten] like they are toys. byron, in the past several months tho has 'manned up' somewhat and steps up but bella is still bossy and i chastise her for her behaviour...

i've read this thread from top to bottom and i've taken mental notes --- i will change my behaviour as regard corrections...

atm, bella has the upper paw in this menagerie and i am close to making a thread asking questions about what i can do about her behaviour as regards byron, bobbie and me!

BUT i am of the view that if i were to introduce another female to this pack, bella would likely chew her to bits...

erny and aiden/aiden2, you both fascinate me with your knowledge --- i love reading your posts, equally...

edited formatting

Edited October 29, 2010 by Skruffy n Flea

[OSoSwift]

I think breed also plays into it a lot.

I would never even consider 2 entire male Dobes (although I do know someone who had 2 and they were best buds) I probably would not have two bitches again, and almost certainly not entire.

With the Whippets I have one of each entire. The bitch is the pushy bitchy one, the Male gives in very quickly, he will very occasionally growl at her if her really deosn't want to give up his possession, but if she says now, he goes no worries!

I would happily keep a mix of Whippets. It is possible I may have the odd hiccup but from my understanding it would be less likely that there would be and more likely they would sort themselves out and get on.

I doubt I would keep two entire Males Whippet or not. I would have one desexed, one entire male Whippet though

[Skruffy n Flea]

i wonder too ososwift whether it could be breed-based...

[Diva]

i wonder too ososwift whether it could be breed-based...

I used to be convinced it was breed-based. But recently I've seen people with breeds not a million miles away from my own have very serious inter-bitch issues, and I've stopped being quite so sure of that.

I run 3 bitches together always, 2 of them entire, and have had no problems. I have run 2 entire males and an entire bitch of the same breed together and also no problems. But I have stopped being quite so sure it's never going to happen.

[OSoSwift]

I don't think it is entirely breed based, but I do think some breeds are more likely to have issues than others.

I am also of the opinion there is no such thing as never.

I know of Whippets who have and have been attacked when opposite sexes were involved.

[Jed]

I believe it is breed based, providing the dogs all have good nerve.

Retrievers and toy dogs have more hope of running together than bull or terriers. Most of rhe utility breeds wouldn't be too safe together. Just the nature of the beast. And there is always the odd one which proves the exception.

And I personally don't think those really shocking s##t stirring bitches should be bred with. They seem to be the ones who produce nasty s##t stirring bitches themselves - not every pup in the litter, but enough to carry those genes into the future.

I've been breeding for a long time - long enough to see 6 or 8 generations, and you do see it.

I got sick of it and removed all the trouble makers from my breeding program. The dogs don't look any worse, and they are not off standard, but my life is easier.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Jed