Banshee Is Back Home

[yellowgirl]

Rescue dogs, new baby puppies - its the same syndrome.

When the glow of the new acquistion (be it as "saviour" or the "daw' factor of the bub) wears off and the reality of day to day life with a living breathing creature that needs care and attention sets in, then you find out whether folk are up to the task they assured you they could handle. Dogs with issues add complexity to that reality and some folk just aren't cut out for it even if they thought they were. I dont think they should be criticised for contacting Yellowgirl rather than booting Banshee outside or dumping her at the nearest pound - they did the right thing.

You're so right Poodlefan! Which is why I wanted to Banshee to live with them for at least a month before they totally commited to her. The 'aww' factor definitely needed to be considered. Look at what always happens in January/February when the novelty of Christmas puppies has worn off and dumping season begins .

Greytmate has made some good points. I hope YG can accept them in the spirit with which they have been made and learn from the experience. I'm confident she will.

Absolutely! I'd still be interested to have the specific comments addressed though. Ovbiously I've missed something that could have made the transition better/easier for Banshee.

As has been said time and again on here, expressions of sympathy, whilst pleasant to receive, are neither informative nor educational for OP or readers. The dog is safe and some folk may profit from YG's experience. I call that a win.

Hmmm, I don't know about that one. I see DOL as a support system, a place to share experiences and help each other. I can't get the feedback I get from here from family or friends because they just don't 'get' how I feel about dogs, in particular my own crazy crew ;) . I know many online and real life friends I've met through DOL feel the same. The replies don't necessarily have to be informative or educational, sometimes just having people who understand what you're going through may be all that's needed . For me, extra input or advice is always appreciated as every experience should be an opportunity to learn something new and hopefully do things better in the future.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

As a very experienced rescuer and rehomer, I'm afraid I have come across a number of situations like this. I'm very glad that they returned Banshee to Yellowgirl and I'm sure she's delighted to be back as well.

I once had an active young dog returned after 5 days. I had explained that because she was young there was a typical level of destructive behaviour - I tried my best to dissuade the person from adopting but they were adamant they had the right situation - a part time worker, planned on doing agility, had another dog for company and so on.

She did not return the dog to me but after unsuccessfully trying to place her with an 82 yr old, returned her to my organisation, 2 days after telling me she was a perfect fit and was never coming back.

The dog's heinous crime? She chewed up 1 toilet roll the day before she was returned and "turned the house into something like a Christmas scene" and there was no way this lady was going to put up with this behaviour. No, she would not shut her bathroom door as I'd told her at the beginning because this dog liked toilet rolls.

I'm not complaining, I was glad to have the dog back and eventually rehomed her again to a different type of person/scenario and human behaviour disappoints me enormously sometimes, as in this case.

[poodlefan]

YG:

The replies don't necessarily have to be informative or educational, sometimes just having people who understand what you're going through may be all that's needed .

Point taken.

However if someone can help you or others learn from what you're going through, I call that a bonus. I appreciate that its a bonus that some folk just don't want to get but I think it can be beneficial in the longer term.

[Greytmate]

Yellowgirl, as I said previously, I wouldn't have placed that dog in a home. So I will explain why I think that way.

The dog was showing extreme nervousness. A nervy dog is not a good candidate for any home with kids. Kids are inherently less predictable and more active in their movements and demeanour, and this can make it hard for a nervy dog to feel settled. The dog's threshold for reaction to threat is so much lower than a dog that is not too nervy or reactive.

The dog showed aggression to the point of biting. Nerviness or reactivity can result in a number of reactions in a dog. Some dogs are genetically inclined to have an aggressive reaction, some dogs have learned to use an aggressive reaction.

Research has shown that the biggest indicator of a dog's likelihood to bite somebody is a history of having bitten in the past. Research has shown that children are at more risk of being bitten than adults. Research has shown that it is the family dog that is most likely to bite a child.

With this knowledge in mind, it becomes an unacceptable risk to place a fear aggressive dog in a home with children. If there ever is a court battle, it will be assumed that you as the seller of a dog with a known dangerous fault should not have made that dog available for sale. Whether it is called an adoption or no cash changes hands is irrelevant. Buyers have a right to buy a product fit for the purpose for which it was sold, so if the dog is being sold as a pet (not a working dog), the seller needs to do all that is reasonably possible to ensure that the dog is a good pet. They are obliged to ask about and document the dog's behaviour history. If there are any dangerous issues, you cannot rehome the dog.

As I explained before, having a behaviourist is not the solution. I do not believe that dogs with certain issues resulting from genetic flaws can be cured or fixed, they can only be managed, and that management is a burden. When people express interest in owning a dog, they are unlikely to be aware of what a burden that might be if they get the wrong dog. Too many people believe that serious behaviour problems can be fixed as long as there is a desire to fix them. Most of them cannot.

So while Banshee was not a candidate for rehoming, say if she had been a dog of good temperament, there are still things I would have done differently.

If I were you, I would be careful to separate the retail outlet you own with any dog that you rehome. Aside from it being perceived as a really random business practice from a business point of view, rescue will be perceived as part of your business by the average person, and this will give them certain expectations that go along with obtaining any type of goods from a retail outlet. This puts you at a disadvantage, as the buyer may behave like a consumer with high expectations of the seller and a lowered sense of personal responsibility. Not the ideal environment to accurately screen a person and find out what they are really like.

The toilet problem was not the issue, the commitment to settling the dog and solving the toilet problem was the issue, so the dog was returned. This means that the people's expectations were wrong. That is a communication problem, as it is a rehomer's job to try to ensure that the new owners expectations are a perfect match for what the dog will be in any likely situation. Communication would not have been ideal taking place in a retail environment, or in the presence of the dog being adopted. These things would make it harder for the new adopter to listen carefully or even think rationally about the critical information that is being passed between you, that they are agreeing to take on for the next ten or so years.

The photos of the dog standing on the kids lying on the floor is cute, but it is not a situation I would allow to take place, especially with a dog that has bitten in the past. Some will accuse me of being over the top, but just seeing the photo made me think that the people do not have a really good understanding of dog behaviour, although they do obviously love dogs very much.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

A purebred dog (of a super gentle breed and small size) I rehomed recently went to a supposedly "years of experience with difficult dogs" home, similar types of dog blah blah. Checked it all out very thoroughly and was convinced the person was an ideal placement, I was not the only one to make this judgement either.

The dog was unable to gain access to get outside during the night, this was an unknown, unknown that he needed to pee in the night so he did it inside.

This alone caused the owner to believe she had to inflict the "alpha roll" on the dog, to show who was boss.

As an experienced person who asks all the right questions, I was totally stumped.

I had asked what would happen if there were any toiletting accidents and was met with the reassurance that it wasn't going to be a problem, had years of experience in training dogs, any incidents were met with kindness and understanding.

And the alpha roll???

[Greytmate]

Just wanted to add more on helping a dog 'transition' to its new home.

Part of interviewing the prospective family and finding out their expectations is educating them on exactly what needs to happen to help the dog settle in.

All dogs need 'toilet training' to some degree in a new home, even if it is to just find out where the door is, and it is helpful to suggest a procedure for the new family to go through to help settle the dog into its new routine.

Information should ideally be backed up with written information and suggestions for the family to read and understand prior to the dog coming home.

If a family was to claim a few weeks later that they didn't have time to 'toilet train' the dog, it would be an indication that they were unsuccessful at settling the dog in. It takes a few days to a few weeks of supervision to achieve a reliable toilet routine with a dog, and a commitment needs to be gained from the family before the adoption takes place that there will be a person with time to supervise during this time.

Toilet training a normal dog doesn't take up too much time really, it is worth the effort. But if the dog isn't normal and the accidents are due to extreme nervousness, you cannot blame a family for not wanting to deal with that.

I wouldn't be inclined to post the information here, but it may be helpful to you to go and ask the family a few more questions, so that you can get feedback. What did they do to try to settle the dog into the routine? Did they feel you had explained adequately what they would need to do? What had they tried so far with toilet training? Did that help at all? in what circumstances did the toilet accidents take place? Take their answers with a grain of salt, but there may be some thing which tells you more about the dog's behaviour or about their qualities as dog owners.

[yellowgirl]

Yellowgirl, as I said previously, I wouldn't have placed that dog in a home. So I will explain why I think that way

The dog was showing extreme nervousness. A nervy dog is not a good candidate for any home with kids. Kids are inherently less predictable and more active in their movements and demeanour, and this can make it hard for a nervy dog to feel settled. The dog's threshold for reaction to threat is so much lower than a dog that is not too nervy or reactive.

Yes, Banshee was pretty bad when I first got her. I didn't realise the extent of her trauma until she bit the vet and a CC breeder. She had been understandably nervous at first, but she never bit me.

At the time she met the family she wasn't nervous.

The dog showed aggression to the point of biting. Nerviness or reactivity can result in a number of reactions in a dog. Some dogs are genetically inclined to have an aggressive reaction, some dogs have learned to use an aggressive reaction.

Not sure if there's much of a distinction here but Banshee wasn't aggressive, she was a fear biter. She didn't show aggression to the point of biting, she showed fear to the point of biting. I don't believe it was genetic, it was a learned behaviour to protect herself in the past. I believe this to be the case as she was able to 'unlearn' certain behaviours. I'm not saying for one minute that that made her 100% 'safe' though, just that the behaviour had been modified to such a degree that there was a very noticable improvement in her reactions and I knew what kind of situation would result in a bad reaction.

Research has shown that the biggest indicator of a dog's likelihood to bite somebody is a history of having bitten in the past. Research has shown that children are at more risk of being bitten than adults. Research has shown that it is the family dog that is most likely to bite a child.

Absolutely agree

With this knowledge in mind, it becomes an unacceptable risk to place a fear aggressive dog in a home with children. If there ever is a court battle, it will be assumed that you as the seller of a dog with a known dangerous fault should not have made that dog available for sale. Whether it is called an adoption or no cash changes hands is irrelevant. Buyers have a right to buy a product fit for the purpose for which it was sold, so if the dog is being sold as a pet (not a working dog), the seller needs to do all that is reasonably possible to ensure that the dog is a good pet. They are obliged to ask about and document the dog's behaviour history. If there are any dangerous issues, you cannot rehome the dog.

I understand what you're saying

As I explained before, having a behaviourist is not the solution. I do not believe that dogs with certain issues resulting from genetic flaws can be cured or fixed, they can only be managed, and that management is a burden. When people express interest in owning a dog, they are unlikely to be aware of what a burden that might be if they get the wrong dog. Too many people believe that serious behaviour problems can be fixed as long as there is a desire to fix them. Most of them cannot.

You're right, a behaviourist is not always the solution, I'm glad I had that extra experience and assistance for Banshee though.

So while Banshee was not a candidate for rehoming, say if she had been a dog of good temperament, there are still things I would have done differently.

If I were you, I would be careful to separate the retail outlet you own with any dog that you rehome. Aside from it being perceived as a really random business practice from a business point of view, rescue will be perceived as part of your business by the average person, and this will give them certain expectations that go along with obtaining any type of goods from a retail outlet. This puts you at a disadvantage, as the buyer may behave like a consumer with high expectations of the seller and a lowered sense of personal responsibility. Not the ideal environment to accurately screen a person and find out what they are really like.

Actually rescue is part of my business. I use my shop as a base to raise awareness, promote, support and fundraise for rescue groups and individual foster carers and rescuers. Most of my customers know I'm involved with fostering and rescue and they help contribute to our Charity Corner, Dog of the Month and donation tin.

I don't 'screen' people at the shop, I may talk to them here as this is where most of my rescue talks begin. Screening would be done by the individual or group that I refer them to.

The toilet problem was not the issue, the commitment to settling the dog and solving the toilet problem was the issue, so the dog was returned. This means that the people's expectations were wrong. That is a communication problem, as it is a rehomer's job to try to ensure that the new owners expectations are a perfect match for what the dog will be in any likely situation. Communication would not have been ideal taking place in a retail environment, or in the presence of the dog being adopted. These things would make it harder for the new adopter to listen carefully or even think rationally about the critical information that is being passed between you, that they are agreeing to take on for the next ten or so years.

Yes, the first time the family met Banshee was in the shop (just before closing time). That was just a meeting to see if they and Banshee liked each other. In the subsequent weeks there were many phone calls, emails, personal meetings and playdates. They also had a multi-page information sheet that they could read at their leisure detailing all of Banshee's history and current needs.

The photos of the dog standing on the kids lying on the floor is cute, but it is not a situation I would allow to take place, especially with a dog that has bitten in the past. Some will accuse me of being over the top, but just seeing the photo made me think that the people do not have a really good understanding of dog behaviour, although they do obviously love dogs very much.

I would never had allowed Banshee or the kids to be that situation if there was any sign from Banshee that she was uncomfortable. There was quite a lead up to Banshee actually playing with the kids on the floor where they got to know each other calmly first. There was an immediate bond with the family though (very similar to Banshee's intial bond with me) and Banshee was equally comfortable with all of them, although she seemed to have a special spot for the boy.

.....

Now, don't think I'm posting just to disagree with you Greytmate, in general you're absolutely correct in what you're saying. I think that 'general' can't be applied to every single case equally though.

Although I wasn't looking to rehome Banshee, a family who seemed to have everything Banshee needed fell for her and wanted her. And Banshee fell for them too. They knew all about her and I gave them as much information as possible to make sure they knew exactly what they were taking on. From our numerous discussions they seemed like a good family for her. In this particular situation it seemed the right thing for Banshee. None of us had any idea that Banshee wouldn't transition as well as we'd hoped. Maybe she just wanted to come home. But when the toileting issue arised and it became apparent that the family wasn't prepared to deal with that particular issue, she came back.

[yellowgirl]

As a very experienced rescuer and rehomer, I'm afraid I have come across a number of situations like this. I'm very glad that they returned Banshee to Yellowgirl and I'm sure she's delighted to be back as well.

I once had an active young dog returned after 5 days. I had explained that because she was young there was a typical level of destructive behaviour - I tried my best to dissuade the person from adopting but they were adamant they had the right situation - a part time worker, planned on doing agility, had another dog for company and so on.

She did not return the dog to me but after unsuccessfully trying to place her with an 82 yr old, returned her to my organisation, 2 days after telling me she was a perfect fit and was never coming back.

The dog's heinous crime? She chewed up 1 toilet roll the day before she was returned and "turned the house into something like a Christmas scene" and there was no way this lady was going to put up with this behaviour. No, she would not shut her bathroom door as I'd told her at the beginning because this dog liked toilet rolls.

I'm not complaining, I was glad to have the dog back and eventually rehomed her again to a different type of person/scenario and human behaviour disappoints me enormously sometimes, as in this case.

And you must see so much of it too Dogmad At least the dogs are able to come back to you if needed. Trouble is that people can say what they know you want to hear because they're excited about getting the dog and think they can work out any issues later. Once the novelty of the new dog has worn off, it's often not worth putting in the effort to fix the problems though, easy enough just to return the dog I suppose.

A purebred dog (of a super gentle breed and small size) I rehomed recently went to a supposedly "years of experience with difficult dogs" home, similar types of dog blah blah. Checked it all out very thoroughly and was convinced the person was an ideal placement, I was not the only one to make this judgement either.

The dog was unable to gain access to get outside during the night, this was an unknown, unknown that he needed to pee in the night so he did it inside.

This alone caused the owner to believe she had to inflict the "alpha roll" on the dog, to show who was boss.

As an experienced person who asks all the right questions, I was totally stumped.

I had asked what would happen if there were any toiletting accidents and was met with the reassurance that it wasn't going to be a problem, had years of experience in training dogs, any incidents were met with kindness and understanding.

And the alpha roll???

Gawd . Poor dog

[poodlemum]

OT, sorry - what's the Alpha Roll?

Yelllowgirl - you have my admiration for your rescue of this dog - hope you & she have many good years together!

[poodlemum]

I just Googled "Alpha Roll" OMG - did people actually DO this?

[yellowgirl]

Just wanted to add more on helping a dog 'transition' to its new home.

Thanks Greytmate, I appreciate the time you've taken. Here's my responses :D

Part of interviewing the prospective family and finding out their expectations is educating them on exactly what needs to happen to help the dog settle in.

Done

All dogs need 'toilet training' to some degree in a new home, even if it is to just find out where the door is, and it is helpful to suggest a procedure for the new family to go through to help settle the dog into its new routine.

I went to their home and ran through everything with them and Banshee

Information should ideally be backed up with written information and suggestions for the family to read and understand prior to the dog coming home.

Done

If a family was to claim a few weeks later that they didn't have time to 'toilet train' the dog, it would be an indication that they were unsuccessful at settling the dog in. It takes a few days to a few weeks of supervision to achieve a reliable toilet routine with a dog, and a commitment needs to be gained from the family before the adoption takes place that there will be a person with time to supervise during this time.

Agree

Toilet training a normal dog doesn't take up too much time really, it is worth the effort. But if the dog isn't normal and the accidents are due to extreme nervousness, you cannot blame a family for not wanting to deal with that.

Banshee wasn't extremely nervous, I think for whatever reason she was very unsettled in the new home. Had she been even the slightest bit nervous with the family, she wouldn't have gone with them.

I wouldn't be inclined to post the information here, but it may be helpful to you to go and ask the family a few more questions, so that you can get feedback. What did they do to try to settle the dog into the routine? Did they feel you had explained adequately what they would need to do? What had they tried so far with toilet training? Did that help at all? in what circumstances did the toilet accidents take place? Take their answers with a grain of salt, but there may be some thing which tells you more about the dog's behaviour or about their qualities as dog owners.

I was in constant contact with them the whole time and we'd covered all of this as the situation was occuring. After lots of communication with the family I knew they weren't in a position to give her everything she needed and agreed that it was best she came back.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond. I know it will be of great help to others also :D

OT, sorry - what's the Alpha Roll?

Yelllowgirl - you have my admiration for your rescue of this dog - hope you & she have many good years together!

Thanks Poodlemum

The Alpha Roll is a Cesar Milan tecnique where the owner physically forces the dog to the ground into a total submissive position. Absolutely not called for in the situation Dogmad was describing

[Loving my Oldies]

I just Googled "Alpha Roll" OMG - did people actually DO this?

It shocks me. It may work for some dogs, but I can imagine some dogs would be absolutely traumatised.

Jeune imagines the hounds of hell are on her tail if I ask her very softly, politely and calmly to sit :D :D .

[persephone]

The Alpha Roll is a Cesar Milan tecnique

It was around long before Cesar was born!

[LizT]

That's a shame that a family can accept a dog with issues, and then get all in a fuss over toilet training ffs.

No offence but they sound like idiots.

Well there's toileting and there's toileting...I'm happy enough to clean a firm turd off a polished board but my heart sinks if a dog pees on the carpet!!

[yellowgirl]

I think some of the comments in this thread are uncalled for and some offer good constructive criticism and suggestions for better managing the situation. I do think it's important to note that YG wasn't seeking to rehome Banshee and it was only through a random series of events that a family cropped up that she considered placing Banshee with. I agree with the comments suggesting that sometimes people think they are up to managing a dog with issues who may need time to settle in and it is only when faced with reality, that they realise they are not up to it after all. YG did go to extraordinary lengths to make sure this family knew what they were taking on through regular visits, play dates and even an overnight stay in addition to lots of phone contact and preparing an "instruction manual" of several pages to assist them. I also agree that in the end it's best that Banshee is back with YG, as it obviously wasn't the right family if they weren't able to persist with the support Banshee needed to settle in.

Thanks Justice Shades, very sweet of you :D

As always, I'm open to input, postive or otherwise. If responses to my threads can help me with decisions in the future or help others in a similar situation, then it's a good thing.

I know exactly what you are saying but the next one will probably be a completely different scenario. I think YG should join with a reputable rescue group for support for any future dogs in need. The issue with taking a fee when you are not part of a rescue group is that it is simply a sale and not an adoption.

I must confess that when I independantly rescued I would get the vet work done and request that a donationation be made to my choice of shelter or rescue group. If I couldn't have managed the cost I would not have been able to do it at that time.Those dogs are all still chipped to me. There were only a few as I had moved to a new area and so left my old group behind but wanted to continue till I found a group I knew had the same ideals as myself. Plug here for SAFE PERTH...doing it well.

I do honestly believe though that YG has absolutely done all she could possibly have done to ensure this was a good option for Banshee, if she had been with a reputable rescue group the same thing could have happened but it wouldn't be posted on here Maybe it was too soon, we don't know as we haven't met the dog. When a dog has a few issues it can sometimes be a tough call to get both the timing and the family right.

Unfortunately reputable rescue groups seem to be thin on the ground in SA Rusky and most are breed specific.

Mmm, true. Most of the rescuers/foster carers I deal with are individuals, not necessarily the groups familiar to DOL.

I just Googled "Alpha Roll" OMG - did people actually DO this?

Unfortunately, as with anything that is meant only for very specific situations and meant only to be implemented by experts, once it gets into public arena, there's always going to be idiots who latch on to it (my ex-husband for one), usually to the detriment of the dog :D

[Greytmate]

Banshee wasn't extremely nervous, I think for whatever reason she was very unsettled in the new home. Had she been even the slightest bit nervous with the family, she wouldn't have gone with them.

Unsettledness = nervousness. Nobody can say whether it was extreme or not, because we were not there.

Not sure if there's much of a distinction here but Banshee wasn't aggressive, she was a fear biter. She didn't show aggression to the point of biting, she showed fear to the point of biting. I don't believe it was genetic, it was a learned behaviour to protect herself in the past. I believe this to be the case as she was able to 'unlearn' certain behaviours.

There is a distinction, and you do need to be sure of what constitutes aggression if you are rehoming dogs.

Aggression is the behaviour. Whether that is biting, nipping, snapping, growling, or various other more subtle unfriendly messages.

Fear biting is a type of aggression. There are many types of aggression that can be triggered by different instinctive drives that dogs have. Many of them are natural and normal depending on the dogs genetics and background. But that does not mean aggression is acceptable. Fear biting is a very serious type of aggression.

The biting may be a learned behaviour, but the decision to bite in the first place rather than freeze, cower flee or grab softly is very much based on the dog's genetic instinct. All dogs have a threshold of what stresses they will take before reaction. A dog that is stressed to the point of biting when it is being handled by a stranger has a very low threshold to aggression. While this threshold can be heightened with good management, it can also very, very quickly lowered again should different circumstances occur.

Some behaviours can be mostly due to environment, and you may have been very successful in training Banshee to behave. But that does not mean that her propensity to show aggression in future is not based on her genetics.

Yellowgirl, I am glad that you are doing all those procedures I mentioned to ready the dog and new owner for the adoption. They are essential in my opinion. But they can only work if you have a sound understanding of dog behaviour yourself. Otherwise it is the blind leading the blind. This dog was always going to be nervy and unsettled in a new home, because she is a dog of nervy temperament. No amount of good intention or training is going to change Banshee into a dog that is really suitable to be a children's pet.

I'm not saying for one minute that that made her 100% 'safe' though, just that the behaviour had been modified to such a degree that there was a very noticable improvement in her reactions and I knew what kind of situation would result in a bad reaction.

This is spot on. It is the reason she should not leave you. You understand how to keep her safe and happy. Once you sell her, you lose all control, and anything could happen.

Actually rescue is part of my business. I use my shop as a base to raise awareness, promote, support and fundraise for rescue groups and individual foster carers and rescuers. Most of my customers know I'm involved with fostering and rescue and they help contribute to our Charity Corner, Dog of the Month and donation tin.

I don't 'screen' people at the shop, I may talk to them here as this is where most of my rescue talks begin. Screening would be done by the individual or group that I refer them to.

It sounds like you are doing this a bit randomly, from a business point of view. While the idea is fantastic and shows what a caring person you are, I am not sure how this all works for you. Is it in the business plan? Do you have any set goals? What safeguards have you put in place to protect your business and your own liability? This is a whole different topic, so I don't want to add too much here, but I do think there are things you will need to do to ensure you don't lose your business should things go terribly wrong with a dog. There either needs to be a very clear separation or you need to professionalise your rescue activities. Working on this will help both your business and the rescues you support.

[LizT]

I just Googled "Alpha Roll" OMG - did people actually DO this?

"Alpha Roll" technique was very popular with the "Monks of New Skete". These Monks each raised and trained a German Shepherd within their monastry.

Edited October 30, 2010 by LizT

[lanabanana]

I think some of the comments in this thread are uncalled for and some offer good constructive criticism and suggestions for better managing the situation. I do think it's important to note that YG wasn't seeking to rehome Banshee and it was only through a random series of events that a family cropped up that she considered placing Banshee with. I agree with the comments suggesting that sometimes people think they are up to managing a dog with issues who may need time to settle in and it is only when faced with reality, that they realise they are not up to it after all. YG did go to extraordinary lengths to make sure this family knew what they were taking on through regular visits, play dates and even an overnight stay in addition to lots of phone contact and preparing an "instruction manual" of several pages to assist them. I also agree that in the end it's best that Banshee is back with YG, as it obviously wasn't the right family if they weren't able to persist with the support Banshee needed to settle in.

Thanks Justice Shades, very sweet of you

As always, I'm open to input, postive or otherwise. If responses to my threads can help me with decisions in the future or help others in a similar situation, then it's a good thing.

I know exactly what you are saying but the next one will probably be a completely different scenario. I think YG should join with a reputable rescue group for support for any future dogs in need. The issue with taking a fee when you are not part of a rescue group is that it is simply a sale and not an adoption.

I must confess that when I independantly rescued I would get the vet work done and request that a donationation be made to my choice of shelter or rescue group. If I couldn't have managed the cost I would not have been able to do it at that time.Those dogs are all still chipped to me. There were only a few as I had moved to a new area and so left my old group behind but wanted to continue till I found a group I knew had the same ideals as myself. Plug here for SAFE PERTH...doing it well.

I do honestly believe though that YG has absolutely done all she could possibly have done to ensure this was a good option for Banshee, if she had been with a reputable rescue group the same thing could have happened but it wouldn't be posted on here Maybe it was too soon, we don't know as we haven't met the dog. When a dog has a few issues it can sometimes be a tough call to get both the timing and the family right.

Unfortunately reputable rescue groups seem to be thin on the ground in SA Rusky and most are breed specific.

Mmm, true. Most of the rescuers/foster carers I deal with are individuals, not necessarily the groups familiar to DOL.

I just Googled "Alpha Roll" OMG - did people actually DO this?

Unfortunately, as with anything that is meant only for very specific situations and meant only to be implemented by experts, once it gets into public arena, there's always going to be idiots who latch on to it (my ex-husband for one), usually to the detriment of the dog

Have you met Banshee greytmate? Just curious...you seem to know a bit about that specific dog

[Greytmate]

Have you met Banshee greytmate? Just curious...you seem to know a bit about that specific dog

If you read all the topics you would know as much about what this dog has done as I do.

[ellz]

The Alpha Roll is a Cesar Milan tecnique

It was around long before Cesar was born!

We were taught it in our first ever lesson at an obedience club back in 1987. I hated it (and certain other things about the club and the instructor) so much that I never went back for another class there.

The whole "domination" thing really didn't appeal to me then and still isn't "up there" on my list of favourites now for various reasons.