Banshee Is Back Home

[Trishm]

I think Banshee was pretty smart, she just wanted to go home to YG.

[ellz]

I can't see any problem with selling the dog either. The labourer is worthy of his hire. When I rescued, I did sell the dogs I could. Some I gave away.

Complaining about "adoptions" vs "sales" is getting into PETA territory, bagging breeders for making a profit.

Agreed.

And in this case, Banshee was lucky that YG was ready to take her back if things didn't work out.

Yes, maybe some things during Banshee's rescue and adoption could have been handled differently, but we all do what we can at the time and when we know it wasn't right, we do things differently next time. It's part of being human. Nobody really IS perfect, although there seem to be many out there who would like us to think otherwise.

What matters is that the family who adopted Banshee will probably have a better idea of the kind of dog (and problems) that they are prepared to deal with next time. They've possibly come away with a good impression of "rescue" and will hopefully consider another rescue dog in the future.

YG has done her best by Banshee and can happily sleep at night knowing this. And Banshee is happy because she is back with YG, who loves and understands her.

Very sad that the situation didn't work, but it could have been a lot worse.

[yellowgirl]

You guys can't be trusted for a minute while I'm away . I don't have internet at home, so I'm only on DOL while I'm here at the shop. Now, for some replies ...

eta... this could take a while, I keep having too many quote boxes in my replies, so I have to cut them shorter. Will get to everyone eventually though

We have also spent thousands on our rescues as a group and they too were worth it, but I could not personally take on an unknown quantity with a young family. That is all I am saying.

No one is asking you to?!

Don't worry about it Aziah . It seems one of Chewy's main aims in life is to find fault with me and/or my motives in any given situation

No, I think that Chewy is more concerned about the ethics of rehoming a dog with temperament issues to a home with young children. This issue concerns me too, but I didn't read the original thread.

Please don't make it personal.

I think if Chewy's only concern was because of rehoming with young children, she would have mentioned that before in her other posts. Chewy's posts in my threads don't usually have a lot to do with her 'concern'.

Gosh I got my little one back in January and we still have toileting problems. But the poor little bloke had such an ordinary life up until now I no longer care, just try to catch as many as I can.

Hope all is going well with the little guy Dogdog

Banshee will be so pleased to be 'home'

Yep, she really is Persephone

That's a shame that a family can accept a dog with issues, and then get all in a fuss over toilet training ffs.

No offence but they sound like idiots.

I agree with your first statement Lananbanana, it is a shame. I guess that with all the information they had about Banshee maybe this extra thing was just too much for them to deal with. They're not idiots though, they're a nice family who fell for a lovely little dog and thought they could give her what she needed.

That's a shame that a family can accept a dog with issues, and then get all in a fuss over toilet training ffs.

No offence but they sound like idiots.

Im sure there would be more to it.

It would be quite awful for all rescues to come on here bitching about returned dogs. It is disheartning at times, but it is ALWAYS for the best.

I'm not bitching about her being returned, I'm updating.

Sometimes people are all fine about the "issues" that any dog may come with - but when they have to live the reality of it all... well... it can be a bit more than they bargained for...

The great thing is that yellowgirl has taken Banshee back, and she's doing just fine now...

T.

I think that's what happened Tdierikx. The reality of her needing more time to transition wasn't what they bargained for. The deal was always that if it didn't work out, I'd take her back. And yep, she's doing fine

[~Shepherd~]

it was bitching.

"The family wasn't prepared to 'toilet train' her, so she they brought her back. I'd been in regular contact with them and given them advice, from myself as well as the behaviourist. She'd only been there 2 and a half weeks, but they weren't prepared for a dog that needed extra time to settle in and made an occasional mistake while doing so."

[yellowgirl]

..... Please don't make it personal.

That's a joke

If people had bothered to read the whole of Banshee's story before criticising yellowgirl, they would have known that the getting to know and adoption process took place over several weeks which included short stays with the family before the final adoption took place. People are too quick to "give advice" without even bothering to find out half the story.

As for Chewbacca being concerned about ethics, well to be dealing that card in relation to Yellowgirl is really going much too far .

Why people have to circle like sharks just because an adoption doesn't work out is beyond me.

Thanks Mother Moocher, you're such a sweetie Let them circle, I've developed a bit of a thick skin these days. I've got nothing to hide, it's all in my threads

Sometimes people are all fine about the "issues" that any dog may come with - but when they have to live the reality of it all... well... it can be a bit more than they bargained for...

The great thing is that yellowgirl has taken Banshee back, and she's doing just fine now...

T.

I have found that it is really common for some people to agree to or want to take on dogs that have issues, possibly not understanding what impact those issues will have, or feeling as though the issues will be easily overcome. Unfortunately, these poor dogs are returned at a higher rate than other dogs that don't have any issues.

Dogs are not returned because they have a couple of toilet accidents. Dogs are returned because the new owners are not prepared to put in the effort to help the dog settle into a toilet routine in its new home. They haven't bonded with the dog, for whatever reason. The toilet accidents may be blamed, but the real reason is often not admitted.

I think its good that Banshee is going to stay with Yellowgirl instead of being sold again, but hope that her other dogs handle it ok.

You're right there Greytmate, it would have taken time to help get her settled. If the family don't have the time though, I'd rather have her back. Often these things will turn out worse for the dog because the family gets so frustrated that things haven't worked out and the dog gets the blame and probably just chucked outside.

Yellowgirl, also be aware that a dog being rehomed will often exhibit behaviors which indicate stress and or unhappiness. Including losing all toilet training. It is possible or probable that these behaviours will cease once the dog has settled, but sometimes, they go on because the dog, for one reason or another, is terribly unhappy. Maybe it's not such a bad thing - maybe she was trying to tell them something??

And if they didn't have time to toilet her, would they have time to care for her in times of need, or when she is old? No, not the right home.

IMHO, when something like this happened, and I gnashed and snivelled because I thought I had a good home for the dog, something else happened to show me that it hadn't been the right home. Maybe a better home would come along - or maybe the dog was meant to stay with me.

I remember Nellie - Nellie was a biggish dog, supposed to be a malamute x - and perhaps she is. No one would take her. She was a nice dog, good watch dog, obedient, not terribly brave, but not a loony. Some people took her, and returned her because she hid in the laundry, which I thought quite strange. I wondered if they had terrified her.

I resigned myself to having Nellie forever. Then my friend lost her dog after 15 years, and she was keen, as she wanted to register a "black and white female dog" with council for 30 years.

Nellie has been here for nearly 8 years now, friend says she is the dog who never does any wrong. And she doesn't. It would be difficult to find a nicer, easier going, well behaved dog. My friend says Nellie is just the perfect dog --- and she is.

Good luck, don't despair.

Absolutely spot on Jed!

Glad that things worked out for Nellie. You just never know

Wow... way to turn an update thread into a "bash yellowgirl for rehoming a dog" thread.

I'm glad she's back home, and I do believe that the toileting was the only issue, some people just don't understand what taking on a new dog involves and some expect them to be perfect which is hardly the case with ANY dog. If they didn't have time for toilet training it makes you wonder if they really did have time for a dog in general.

When I took on one of the poodles from my mothers place I fully expected toileting issues to begin with... entire male in a new house with new smells, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he's going to try and pull a swifty and mark 'his' new territory.

Thanks Shaar

It's only a bashing if I choose to let it get to me and see it that way though ... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as Greytmate said it's a public forum.

[Staranais]

Thanks Shaar

It's only a bashing if I choose to let it get to me and see it that way though ... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as Greytmate said it's a public forum.

Yup, adoptions can't always work out, better that she comes back to you so you can find her a more suitable home. It just sounds like the wrong dog for them - I hope they find a dog that suits them better, and I hope your girl finds a better match too.

[Aziah]

it was bitching.

"The family wasn't prepared to 'toilet train' her, so she they brought her back. I'd been in regular contact with them and given them advice, from myself as well as the behaviourist. She'd only been there 2 and a half weeks, but they weren't prepared for a dog that needed extra time to settle in and made an occasional mistake while doing so."

You are joking right??? Obviously you're reading it in the tone that suits you to label it 'bitching'

YG simply states (in what you've quoted above) that Banshee is home and gave the reason as to why.

Get a life

[Snout Girl]

just waiting for this thread to go Poof!

[~Shepherd~]

just waiting for this thread to go Poof!

why? We too have had a dog returned but dont have a public go at them. I hope when they go to adopt a family dog that they dont mention Banshee as rescues dont take kindly to lazy families.

[Aziah]

just waiting for this thread to go Poof!

why? We too have had a dog returned but dont have a public go at them. I hope when they go to adopt a family dog that they dont mention Banshee as rescues dont take kindly to lazy families.

you don't give up do you? No one called them lazy - it was simply stated that this was the reason they returned her (ie. didn't wish to toilet train her).

[yellowgirl]

I never believe what people tell me I don't believe toilet was the only reason and I don't think it was the other issues either. They just weren't right for her.

Don't despair the right people will be round the corner and if not then I guess she will stay with you and be loved unconditionally. When people adopt a dog which is ill or has some cranky or unusual behaviours if they are the right people they manage them. Don't beat yourself up and no one else has the right to either as you have gone above and beyond to try to ensure it was the right place for her.

Cheers Rasky I spoke to the family every two days and in the last week, the toileting was the issue. Even if it wasn't the only reason for her return, at least they realised that she wasn't right for them after all and returned her rather than putting her out the back or some other alternative that wouldn't have been in her best interest. Bottom line is that it turned out best for Banshee

I never believe what people tell me I don't believe toilet was the only reason and I don't think it was the other issues either. They just weren't right for her.

Don't despair the right people will be round the corner and if not then I guess she will stay with you and be loved unconditionally. When people adopt a dog which is ill or has some cranky or unusual behaviours if they are the right people they manage them. Don't beat yourself up and no one else has the right to either as you have gone above and beyond to try to ensure it was the right place for her.

We can all learn from this if we look at what went wrong and how it could have been avoided.

If people are going to make their stories public, they will get criticism as well as credit. That is to be expected on a public forum. We all have a right to put forward our views on rescue practices and ethics. Nobody is above criticism.

There are some issues that make some dogs unsuitable for sale as pets. I am not surprised this poor dog was returned. The same scenario could easily happen again if the dog is offered for sale again, as the dog has some issues that affect its adoptability.

Absolutely agree Greytmate! I'm more than open to opinions on how I could have managed this better. Just to clarify, could you tell me why you're 'not surprised this poor dog was returned'?

By the way, Banshee was not 'offered for sale'.

We can all learn from this if we look at what went wrong and how it could have been avoided.

If people are going to make their stories public, they will get criticism as well as credit. That is to be expected on a public forum. We all have a right to put forward our views on rescue practices and ethics. Nobody is above criticism.

There are some issues that make some dogs unsuitable for sale as pets. I am not surprised this poor dog was returned. The same scenario could easily happen again if the dog is offered for sale again, as the dog has some issues that affect its adoptability.

I state again, that had you read Banshee's story you would (or at least most people would) recognise that YG did EVERYTHING possible, she didn't hold back on all and any of Banshee's problems, she made the people go away and come back several times, she had the people have Banshee for overnight stays which apparently were wonderful.

It is ridiculous that any criticism should be levelled here, only commiserations and and a lurking snigger (a good one ) that Banshee knows when she is onto a good thing .

As for stressing the "sold", "for sale" side of it, well you are just trying to get one under the belt.

Cheers MM . I think you're right about Banshee knowing when she's on to a good thing, I swear I heard that snigger last night

.....

...edited for space

There is no doubt that Yellowgirl went to a lot of effort to get this dog into a home. That is not to say she did everything possible, as that would be ridiculous. Nobody could do everything possible. There hasn't been any criticism of her efforts to screen the home anyway.

However there is now a situation where a family has been upset, a dog has been unsettled and confused, and Yellowgirl has a dog at home that her own dogs do not get along with. It isn't surprising that many people do not want a rescue dog when problems like this are being made public.

I have read Banshee's story now, and believe that different decisions could have been made that could have avoided problems.

It is ridiculous that any criticism should be levelled here, only commiserations and and a lurking snigger (a good one ) that Banshee knows when she is onto a good thing .

This is a discussion forum. If no discussion is wanted, maybe Yellowgirl should have written her story in another forum. Commiserations are not as helpful as feedback as to what may have caused the problem to occur, it's up to Yellowgirl and everyone else reading whether to listen to criticism or ignore it. Some many learn something from this topic, many won't.

As for stressing the "sold", "for sale" side of it, well you are just trying to get one under the belt.

Actually I am looking at it from the point of view of the new dog owner and from the legal point of view. The word "adopted' is the real euphemism, not the word "sold." I will continue to use the word where ever people are selling dogs, as pets or otherwise.

I would rather you stay on topic and not talk about me.

"different decisions could have been made that could have avoided problems" . Not being snarky at all, I'd be interested to know what else I should have done to help things work out better.

Nope, happy to have a discussion right here on DOL. I'm very much open to constructive feedback, and happy to hear anything that may be of use for Banshee now or other foster dogs in the future.

Just to clarify, Banshee was not advertised for sale, nor was I actively looking for a home for her. The details are in the original thread. As for 'selling' her, I did not want any money until the family were 100% sure that Banshee would be staying with them (would have been $300 to cover desexing, microchipping, vaccinations). I wanted them to take at least a month to be absolutely sure. As things turned out, no money was ever exchanged.

Edited October 28, 2010 by yellowgirl

[~Shepherd~]

just waiting for this thread to go Poof!

why? We too have had a dog returned but dont have a public go at them. I hope when they go to adopt a family dog that they dont mention Banshee as rescues dont take kindly to lazy families.

you don't give up do you? No one called them lazy - it was simply stated that this was the reason they returned her (ie. didn't wish to toilet train her).

and what image does that portray?

[Aziah]

just waiting for this thread to go Poof!

why? We too have had a dog returned but dont have a public go at them. I hope when they go to adopt a family dog that they dont mention Banshee as rescues dont take kindly to lazy families.

you don't give up do you? No one called them lazy - it was simply stated that this was the reason they returned her (ie. didn't wish to toilet train her).

and what image does that portray?

That they didn't want a dog that required toilet trainig - not that they were lazy.

You're opinion, you're entitled to it but I believe you're carrying on over nothing.

[yellowgirl]

We can all learn from this if we look at what went wrong and how it could have been avoided

I know exactly what you are saying but the next one will probably be a completely different scenario. I think YG should join with a reputable rescue group for support for any future dogs in need. The issue with taking a fee when you are not part of a rescue group is that it is simply a sale and not an adoption.

I must confess that when I independantly rescued I would get the vet work done and request that a donationation be made to my choice of shelter or rescue group. If I couldn't have managed the cost I would not have been able to do it at that time.Those dogs are all still chipped to me. There were only a few as I had moved to a new area and so left my old group behind but wanted to continue till I found a group I knew had the same ideals as myself. Plug here for SAFE PERTH...doing it well.

I do honestly believe though that YG has absolutely done all she could possibly have done to ensure this was a good option for Banshee, if she had been with a reputable rescue group the same thing could have happened but it wouldn't be posted on here Maybe it was too soon, we don't know as we haven't met the dog. When a dog has a few issues it can sometimes be a tough call to get both the timing and the family right.

Thanks Rusky

I did have support from a few people who are involved in rescue groups here in SA. I continued independantly because that's what I usually do, I take the dog in, desex, etc, and then rehome it. I only ask reimbursement for the cost of the initial vet fees (desex, vacc, chipping, etc). There are several people here in SA who do independant rescue also.

Banshee was a very special situation as I didn't have much choice when she was 'left' with me. I've had shy or timid dogs before but having a dog who was so scared she'd bite was a new one for me. That's why I asked for support from DOLers, SA rescue and foster people, trainers and behaviourists.

I guess I use the words I'm used to 'rescue', 'foster', 'adoption', etc as I'm so used to using them in conversations with rescue groups

It is a shame that things did not work out for Banshee, however perhaps it was for the best.

I think Yellowgirl did everything possible to ensure the adopters were fully informed and willing to take on Banshee.

I don't think either party was really "at fault", sometimes things like this just happen.

Yep, you're right Aussielover, things happen . And when they do I update on DOL, have a good discussion about it, hopefully learn some lessons, and then get on with things

I would rather you stay on topic and not talk about me.

I am not talking about you; I am talking about your constant criticism of Yellowgirl's rehoming of Banshee.

I'm still open to hearing what else I might have done to have made things better or easier for Banshee and the family

[yellowgirl]

I think Banshee was pretty smart, she just wanted to go home to YG.

I think you're right Trishm!

I can't see any problem with selling the dog either. The labourer is worthy of his hire. When I rescued, I did sell the dogs I could. Some I gave away.

Complaining about "adoptions" vs "sales" is getting into PETA territory, bagging breeders for making a profit.

Agreed.

And in this case, Banshee was lucky that YG was ready to take her back if things didn't work out.

Yes, maybe some things during Banshee's rescue and adoption could have been handled differently, but we all do what we can at the time and when we know it wasn't right, we do things differently next time. It's part of being human. Nobody really IS perfect, although there seem to be many out there who would like us to think otherwise.

What matters is that the family who adopted Banshee will probably have a better idea of the kind of dog (and problems) that they are prepared to deal with next time. They've possibly come away with a good impression of "rescue" and will hopefully consider another rescue dog in the future.

YG has done her best by Banshee and can happily sleep at night knowing this. And Banshee is happy because she is back with YG, who loves and understands her.

Very sad that the situation didn't work, but it could have been a lot worse.

You're right Ellz, we had a talk about it after Banshee was returned and they are more aware of what they can commit to now. We're both just glad that they didn't find Banshee in the paper or somewhere and that there was the offer of returning her if things didn't work out.

it was bitching.

"The family wasn't prepared to 'toilet train' her, so she they brought her back. I'd been in regular contact with them and given them advice, from myself as well as the behaviourist. She'd only been there 2 and a half weeks, but they weren't prepared for a dog that needed extra time to settle in and made an occasional mistake while doing so."

I got nuthin'

Thanks Shaar

It's only a bashing if I choose to let it get to me and see it that way though ... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as Greytmate said it's a public forum.

Yup, adoptions can't always work out, better that she comes back to you so you can find her a more suitable home. It just sounds like the wrong dog for them - I hope they find a dog that suits them better, and I hope your girl finds a better match too.

I think my girl's got her match Staranais.. me! . I hadn't expected to find a home for her and was in the process of working out how I could make things work smoothly with all 4 dogs at home. It was a fluke that I caught up with the lady who then wanted to know more about Banshee, and things went from there.

Unfortunately, despite all the work we put into it and how things ended up, you're right, she wasn't the right dog for them.

[Greytmate]

"different decisions could have been made that could have avoided problems" . Not being snarky at all, I'd be interested to know what else I should have done to help things work out better.

Nope, happy to have a discussion right here on DOL. I'm very much open to constructive feedback, and happy to hear anything that may be of use for Banshee now or other foster dogs in the future.

Yes, I am happy to go into more detail. I missed the original posts, but have read through them now.

I think that some decision you made were very good ones, like your original one of keeping Banshee because of issues that she had.

Responsible rescue doesn't just go around saving every dog that is homeless. There are so many good dogs needing homes, and so many dogs with problems that make them unsuitable to be pets for most people. Part of being responsible is to know what the difference is. Part of being responsible it to them decide not to put unsuitable dogs in homes as pets.

There are so many rescuers here saying what I am saying, it is really common for people to agree to be able to handle or work with dogs with issues, when they really want to adopt a dog. Many people have a desire to 'fix' a neglected dog and while an admirable one, fixing aggression problems in dogs is beyond most people's capabilities.

In this particular case, we can assume the motivation was there for this family to agree to deal with the issues, as they had been after a Chinese Crested for quite a while, and had been unsuccessful in obtaining one. They met her and fell in love with her. 99% of dogs with issues are perfectly lovely 99% of the time, and that is what these people fell in love with.

There is also a common perception that a behaviourist can solve all dog problems. In my experience, problem dogs will always have problems, but behaviourists can help people manage the problems. It is always hard work to do this. Many people that have bonded with their dogs from when they were pups are unwilling to put in all this work, so it is less likely somebody getting a new dog is going to be as motivated to do this.

Also, all dogs are different. While people may have had success with previous problem dogs, and claim to be really tolerant and patient, until they have experienced the new problem, they will not know their chances of success.

I am sure many people will argue with stories of dogs successfully rehabilitated and rehomed and I agree that sometimes people and dogs can be lucky. But when rehoming a large number of dogs a pattern can be observed of people overestimating their ability to deal with issues, and dogs with previous issues that were being worked on having their behaviour regress once in a new home. Good intentions cannot overcome serious genetic tendencies to aggression, learned behaviour takes many many hours to alter, if it can be altered at all.

What we do know is that you worked with the dog for months, and Yellowgirl it was your good management, skill and care that made the dog pleasant to be around. It wasn't that the dog's faulty temperament was altered.

Legally, you put yourself the family and the community at risk, placing this dog as a pet when it had a biting history. Without going into too much detail about this here, I will say that if that dog had have caused an injury, you would be liable. This issue alone could fill a whole topic and you need to familiarise yourself with the risks if you are selling or placing dogs as pets.

I think it would be great if you would join up with a reputable rescue organisation, and learn about all the issues in rescue. Learn about behaviour assessment and other important procedures before you take things on alone. You are an intelligent and caring woman with a lot of valuable traits to bring to any organisation. Instead of coming under fire on a message board, you will be talking to real people and being guided by the wealth of their experience. Anyone can and does comment here, regardless of their knowledge of dog behaviour or the issues involved in rescue.

You were absolutely right when you posted this.

I'd originally thought that Banshee wouldn't be re-homeable as she had a lot of fear and trauma issues, not to mention being diagnosed with pancreatitis and now being treated for stump pyometra. When I first took Banshee in I had a home in mind, a lady who had asked me to look out for a Chinese Crested to join their family, but I didn't contact her because of Banshee's issues. I figured she'd be staying with me long term.

I think that there is a lot of information out there that will back up your original instincts not to rehome Banshee. If you arm yourself with knowledge, you can overcome some of the traps involved with such an emotional business. That way ultimately you can help more dogs and see more families happy with new dogs.

[Rusky]

There is also a common perception that a behaviourist can solve all dog problems. In my experience, problem dogs will always have problems, but behaviourists can help people manage the problems. It is always hard work to do this. Many people that have bonded with their dogs from when they were pups are unwilling to put in all this work, so it is less likely somebody getting a new dog is going to be as motivated to do this.

and never a truer word was spoken... would like this on T shirt

[yellowgirl]

We can all learn from this if we look at what went wrong and how it could have been avoided.

... edited...

There are some issues that make some dogs unsuitable for sale as pets. I am not surprised this poor dog was returned. The same scenario could easily happen again if the dog is offered for sale again, as the dog has some issues that affect its adoptability.

.....edited

I have read Banshee's story now, and believe that different decisions could have been made that could have avoided problems.

.... edited

Thanks so much for your detailed reply Greytmate. I appreciate it. I agree with what you've said in terms of rehoming rescue dogs.

Banshee's situation was slightly different to what you addressed though, in that due to her issues I wasn't actually advertising her for rehoming. Until this family came along, I had thought I she'd be staying with me.

In regards to this specific situation, and the fact that Banshee was returned for toileting issues, not the issues that were originally of concern (ie fear biting, pancreatitis) could you tell me what you meant by the comments I've bolded? Could I have done anything different to transition her better or help the family with the issue?

[yellowgirl]

[poodlefan]

There is also a common perception that a behaviourist can solve all dog problems. In my experience, problem dogs will always have problems, but behaviourists can help people manage the problems. It is always hard work to do this. Many people that have bonded with their dogs from when they were pups are unwilling to put in all this work, so it is less likely somebody getting a new dog is going to be as motivated to do this.

and never a truer word was spoken... would like this on T shirt

Rescue dogs, new baby puppies - its the same syndrome.

When the glow of the new acquistion (be it as "saviour" or the "daw' factor of the bub) wears off and the reality of day to day life with a living breathing creature that needs care and attention sets in, then you find out whether folk are up to the task they assured you they could handle. Dogs with issues add complexity to that reality and some folk just aren't cut out for it even if they thought they were. I dont think they should be criticised for contacting Yellowgirl rather than booting Banshee outside or dumping her at the nearest pound - they did the right thing.

THIS is the reason why is so important that responsible rescuers and breeders have a return policy. Full credit to Yellowgirl for taking Banshee back because in reality there are rescuers that would have added her to their "successful rehoming" stats and told the new owners it was now their problem to sort out.

Greytmate has made some good points. I hope YG can accept them in the spirit with which they have been made and learn from the experience. I'm confident she will.

As has been said time and again on here, expressions of sympathy, whilst pleasant to receive, are neither informative nor educational for OP or readers. The dog is safe and some folk may profit from YG's experience. I call that a win.