Susan Garrett's Crate Games

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi All

I know I've been recommending this DVD and it's been discussed in here before - but that was a year ago...

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=181652

So I thought I'd follow it through a bit more thoroughly.

I made notes for myself to print out for instructions so I wouldn't have to duck back and play the dvd some more on the telly to see what was next.

And discovered a few points of contradiction. Eg no letting dog out of crate until you've completed stage three, but in order to complete stage three, you need to play the "yer in yer out" game ie the dog comes out of the crate. In fact the collar grab game - also stage three involves out the crate without a lead...

Maybe she meant stage 2?

So I get the crate all set up. Actually it's been set up for a while now and I've been leaving the door chained open and feeding treats inside when the dog goes in but I haven't been closing the door - my dog isn't stupid, she knows what that means. But she's happy to sleep in there when I'm having a shower or making dinner.

Tonight I decide before she gets her dinner we're doing the crate games thing till we get to stage three. So I get all the treats out high value, roast chicken, metwurst, fresh fried liver etc.

And I count out little piles of 10 - for five to ten reps like she says and we breeze through stage 1 opening and closing the door without moving, and stage 2 gambling on leaving the door open, hooking the lead on and off, and get ready to start stage three having made very few mistakes. I didn't have to wait for her to "pop into a sit" because she was always sitting - treats nearby do that to her. So I hook the lead on - for her - leads are no big deal, she doesn't get excited about walk time like other dogs. Well not until we get to the oval... Anyway, have the lead on, open the door, tell her to "go" and she stays at the back of the crate with her butt welded to the mesh at the back. Boy have I done a good job. Oops. So I make a few more encouragements and she comes out, really carefully. Cos the last few times I faked her out and shut the door before she could get out. Not fun. So she's out now and really happy.

And then she won't go back in. I have timer, after 2 minutes I grab her collar - ooh have we got opposition reflex - and she pulls back and I hold her in front of the crate and nothing. And after two minutes I let go and she offers up a sit stay, and then a drop stay - she can do that for ten minutes or so now. So I figure I'll hook her lead to the crate and make her dinner as extra incentive... still no dog in crate. So I do what I do to get her to go in there (when she's off lead) like we did to start the game. And after thirty seconds or so of complaining she finally goes in and I think I'll quit while I'm ahead and do a couple more open-treat-close loops and then let her "go" get her dinner, much faster coming out that time.

But I'm thinking she's got loads of value on the crate, but not with the door shut. Or not if she thinks I will shut the door. I've gone wrong somewhere.

I put her squirrel dude kibble holder loaded up with kibble and a couple of bits of metwurst in the crate and then go make my dinner. She has no problems going back in the crate to get her squirrel dude.

Is just odd that she offered up a long stay instead of going back in the crate.

So I will run through stage 1 and 2 again tomorrow before dinner (boy my back hurts after all that high and at the back stuff) and see if we get a better result.

Note, I can get her in and out the crate easily - when she's off lead, and I don't touch the crate except to give her a treat (high and at the back). I dunno if it's worth building up to closed doors on that or leaving the door closed for longer or if that will just put her off more.

I also don't know if it's bad to let her use the crate with the door clipped open like a kennel where she comes and goes as she pleases, or not. I think a dog can learn the difference between when I tell her to go in the crate and she can't come out until I release her, and when she decides she's going in the crate.

We're also practicing a variation of crate games using the house. She doesn't get to go out until she's done a nice sit and held it while I open the door. If she won't sit, I walk away, if she gets up, I shut the door and wait. If she does a nice sit and holds it, she gets the release word - and then she drives out the back door. I'm thinking of changing the release word from "go" to "cats". Although that might cause other problems.

Anyone else got any crate games training stories? What happened to last year's players?

Stage 4 is naming the game (eg "get in yer kennel") and other stuff. So I assume the end of stage three - despite the dog being out the crate to do stage three - happens when you get to stage 4, ie dog is going in and out of the crate from a close distance, with reasonable enthusiasm.

[Nekhbet]

can I say you have me totally confused

crate training the Nekhbet way

have crate open

feed dog all meals and treats in there only, when dog goes in say 'INSIDE!' or 'BED' or whatever you please

when dog is comfortable close door while eating

gradually increase time door is closed

dog now happy to be in crate

For dog that have to learn quickly due to emergencies etc

put a bowl of food and something to eat that takes a long time to consume (RMB etc)

put dog in crate praising only when its not showing resistance, shut the door

cover most of crate, keep other dogs away to decrease that 'trapped' feeling and intimidation

ignore dog if it carries on like a pork chop

... all the dogs i've had to train like this have not fussed or tried to rip the crate apart, most go straight to sleep

*grunt* oog me dog trainer ...

[JulesP]

can I say you have me totally confused

crate training the Nekhbet way

have crate open

feed dog all meals and treats in there only, when dog goes in say 'INSIDE!' or 'BED' or whatever you please

when dog is comfortable close door while eating

gradually increase time door is closed

dog now happy to be in crate

For dog that have to learn quickly due to emergencies etc

put a bowl of food and something to eat that takes a long time to consume (RMB etc)

put dog in crate praising only when its not showing resistance, shut the door

cover most of crate, keep other dogs away to decrease that 'trapped' feeling and intimidation

ignore dog if it carries on like a pork chop

... all the dogs i've had to train like this have not fussed or tried to rip the crate apart, most go straight to sleep

*grunt* oog me dog trainer ...

Lol. Crate Games isn't just training a dog to go into a crate. I guess it is like using a crate to do TOT and to build drive.

[Nekhbet]

ok watched the trailer ... call me old fashioned I see the crate as a place the dog can relax and I want it to shut down its drive, not use it as an extra piece of agility equipment

or am I still confused

[Kavik]

I haven't done Crate Games with my lot.

BUT I am going to the Susan Garrett seminar next month (as auditor, because we haven't done Crate Games and that is prerequisite for a working spot ). If you have a concrete question about it I am more than happy to ask at the seminar and have her clarify something for you :D

[kelpiechick]

ok watched the trailer ... call me old fashioned I see the crate as a place the dog can relax and I want it to shut down its drive, not use it as an extra piece of agility equipment

or am I still confused :D

You're still confused :rolleyes:

It's a totally different thing to crate training.

But you've also made what I found to be a very interesting point when doing it with my young girl - using the same crate as she slept and relaxed in was fine at first but then for some reason as I got further along the stages it muddied the waters - or it was most likely something I did inadvertently that muddied the waters, although I have kept detailed notes of every training stage and gone over them stacks and can't figure out what happened, but that's training !

And I like your reference to the crate being another piece of agility equipment as in effect it does become that.

The differentiation for the dog should be he is free to relax in crate, when your hand touches the latch it is the cue for game to begin and dog 'assumes position'.

Mrs RB - I'm not sharing behaviour I got atm as I only have one good arm after an accident and one finger typing is doing my head in but it was a lot more bizarre than what you have described. Ask me again in a couple of weeks when hopefully I have normal use again and I'm happy to share.

What I did was totally change the picture for her by using another crate just for crate games that looked totally different from her relaxing crate and I also changed the location by setting it up outside just for CG. I was also at the stage where I had named the driving in behaviour so I changed thst too, just to make sure I didn't get any 'poison cue' syndrome.

This eliminated my unwanted behaviuor immediately - I did go back to stage 1 and start again also.

Now I could use any crate anywhere for crate games and it is fine but for me I found it helpful to have this very black and white distinction first.

Some more things that might help-

*test how well your dog understands release cue away from crate - put dog on stay, walk forward and stop with back to dog, keep looking forward NOT back at dog, stand totally still and give verbal release - do they come ?

*if dog is not driving out of crate you might need more balance of reward by rewarding the drive out as well as the drive in .

*I wouldn't be making the goal at the beginning of each session that I was going to get to stage 3 in one session, even though that might be realistic.

Start with a one minute session, then put dog away and re-assess both dog's behaviour and your training mechanics and then make a goal and bring dog out again. Do not drill - poison cue thing again. If I had the problems you described when I finally got the going back in I would jackpot and then stop immediately, not do a couple more loops. The hardest thing to do when you are finding problems is to leave it and walk away for a bit but often that is best.

*IF dog doesn't choose to go in crate after around 2 mins restrict environment by holding collar in front of crate - that one from SG notes. Sounds like you did that though.

Hope some of this helps - have to say I am a huge fan of CG and am always trying to invent new things I can teach using it, especially atm with my injury time out. Hope I am able to drive again in time for SG seminar or to say I will be pissed is an understatement.

Edited October 27, 2010 by kelpiechick

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Nekhbet

Um, yes and no. You'd have to watch the DVD to get it, but essentially it's about teaching the dog to be happy and chilled out in the crate - for example at agility competitions and seminars. That's what your opening method would achieve.

And then it's about using the "value" in the crate to build value on obstacles in agility or build drive, ie we try to get the dog to go fast in or out of the crate (on command). And use that to build a dog that looks where it is going on an agility course and goes there as fast as it can.

Kelpiechick,

I like your idea of using a different crate for training. Though it would be nice to have one where she's "ready to work" when I get her out to do an agility run or "obedience" training. Ie it's a drive trigger (eg hand on door of crate).

At the moment, she's got no idea. It's hard to get her to "pop into a sit" when I put my hand on the crate. She's quite relaxed in there, lies down. Doesn't see me touching the crate as any big deal so I have to tell her to sit. But I guess that's ok - we just chain to get the behaviour.

She's got no idea about the release word - like I said "cats" works much better at firing her out the door like a gun went off behind her. It probably doesn't help that I don't remember to say the release word ("go") when it's time for her to leave the crate.

We ran through the whole routine through to "yer in, yer out" again this afternoon. She didn't want to come out. And then she didn't want to go back in. I cheated and dropped a piece of metwurst inside the crate, and she went back in and then I released her out again (for a bit of kibble).

Kavik -

I am also going to the seminar as an auditor - so I will bring a list of questions. I am also bringing the dog because I want to practice after class. Last time she had an extended break from me, she forgot all her agility stuff. Not good. Maybe we're going to have to wear name tags with our DoL ids on them. I'm afraid my nick name is a bit misleading. I've never been married and I don't look like a bucket. It had something to do with the dog wearing a bucket on her head when I met her. And loads of people mishearing her name "Frosty" as "Rusty", which I quite like as a blue coloured dog name.

In the meantime - dog needs to be happy in the crate for extended periods of time (2 hours or so) - as she would even if I were in the class as a "handler". She's fine in my big white 4WD crate, but not so good in the little mesh one when she can see me over there and I'm ignoring her. If she can sit with me (a possibility) then all will be good and she will be quiet and well behaved.

So tomorrow night's game may include a bit more delay between rewards to extend the time she spends in the crate. It sure isn't as easy or straight forward or as quick as it was in the video. Ie she breezes through stage 1 and 2 like they are nothing and then won't come out and won't go back in.

After persuading her that it is ok really to come out, she then does a very lovely extended "Stay", I'm stuck there standing on the lead and she lies down and goes to sleep. Quite comfy thank you.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Kavik]

Since a few of us are going maybe we should have a tag or something so we can recognise each other Otherwise you could feel strange asking everyone if they are on DOL :D

I am bringing the dog too should be fun!

[Jigsaw]

For crate games SG recommends using a treat of the highest value to the dog eg raw meat. Crate games is something I've ummed and ahhed over doing for the same reasons as mentioned above. I do want the dog to relax in the crate and I don't necessarily want her to be over the top when she gets out either. I still haven't watched all the DVD but have done up to stage 3 with my dog but not in other environments to home. She's not too bad in her soft crate when we travel. I'll also be at the SG seminar as an auditor, will have my girl with me and hoping to get into some Treiball there with her.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog and one trainer are very fond of Metwurst.

But it only worked to get her back in the crate if I dropped a bit in there.

Her highest value thing is me - and we don't both fit in the crate. And she often takes me for granted, however a bit of crate training and she thinks she's going to be left in there without her number 1 favourite toy (me).

I am still a bit fuzzy about how to use me as a reward. If she fails to recall - I hide - and that's quite effective. She recalls very promptly for quite a while after that.

[Jigsaw]

Your dog might be fond of metwurst but does she LOVE metwurst? Will she jump through hoops to get metwurst or is there something else that she may find even more highly rewarding. I think I would be going back to the first stage again and building more value for the crate. Stand outside the crate and throw the food into the crate. If necessary hold your dog by the collar and throw the food in and then release your dog. I wouldn't be shutting the crate door until you have a successful drive into the crate. Once your dog will go into the crate more willingly I would then start rewarding only once she's in the crate and then working on the crate games.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

She willingly goes in there if I chuck food in there. We can play yer in yer out over and over, as long as I don't shut the gate, and I don't have the lead on. This would not be following the instructions.

I also can't tell if she likes metwurst (or anything else) better than kibble.

If I put a selection of different treats out, she goes for the nearest, or starts at one end, and just methodically eats everything.

Although she's not all that keen on cheese. She is very keen on anything I'm eating. Well until she finds out it is apple and not promite on toast. And somebody else's treats - even if they're cheese or kibble are always better than my roast chicken or metwurst. Not sure why.

[Agility Dogs]

After persuading her that it is ok really to come out, she then does a very lovely extended "Stay", I'm stuck there standing on the lead and she lies down and goes to sleep. Quite comfy thank you.

She willingly goes in there if I chuck food in there.

My first two dogs were 'crate trained' in that they love their crates and see them as a safe place to relax. That said I think that dogs that have done crate games properly also see the crate in the same way - it's a matter of making sure they understand the cues in the game. (Hand on crate door etc.)

I've done crate games with my puppy and for us it was almost as simple as the video. The only problem I had was that she didn't want to go in there when we started playing 'yer in yer out'. I backed it up a step and started rewarding when she paid any attention to the crate - just like you would start any shaping exercise. We quickly progressed to where she now drives hard into and out of the crate from good distance. (She has just turned six months and last night I was sending her from 15 or 20 metres with flyball training happening in the background - all about building desire.)

Maybe you just need to up the reward rate a bit more than what the video shows?

The other thing is that what you said above might be contributing to the stalemate. Allowing to lie down and essentially self reward is going to encourage that. It took me quite a while to realise that my boy was manipulating me with behaviours like this one - he would 'shut down' so I would put him back in the crate and train my other dog - exactly what he wanted.

IMO our job is to keep them interested so that they don't present any unwanted behaviour - be it passive, aggressive or any where in between. I think some dogs require that higher reward rate so be prepared to play around with what is basically a generic formual (the dvd) because it won't always fit every dog or every situtaion.

A lot of what we have done was with the help of Linda Orton-Hill who works for Susan. (I wasn't bright/creative enough to come up with it myself - once she put us on the right road it has come a lot easier.)

ETA - best not to throw food into the crate before she goes in there - its just a big lure she has taught you to use. You need to drive the game.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Agility Dogs

[rastus_froggy]

Take a deep breath and relax, if you get worried that your dog just isn't getting it they can feel it and then they get confused. I would stop doing you're in you're out and go back to building the value of being in the crate. Take each step slowly, do stage one for say a week, remember her video is not viewed in 'real time' and the learner dog she uses I'm sure would have very full on previous leanring history.

[Agility Dogs]

the learner dog she uses I'm sure would have very full on previous leanring history.

Really good point - I love watching dogs learn to learn. Makes life and training so much easier when they 'get' learning.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Today's crate games - she does seem to be getting it. I didn't bother putting a collar or lead on her.

She was barking at our new soft sided crate so I figure now's a good time for some crate games - raining and all. I got some chicken out the fridge. She goes in the mesh crate of her own accord, I gave her a treat and shut the door and then counted out about ten bits of chicken, and we did high and at the back no gambling but extended absenses out of sight by me - like out of sight stays - which she's moderately familiar with.

Then I did the same thing mixing in a bit of open door gambling - though I didn't leave the door open and go out of sight - cos Susan G doesn't do that.

I did have a couple of absenses with the door shut, for a couple of minutes at time. Did some more high and at the backs. She was learning to "pop into a sit" too, and even did a lie down during a gamble - woo hoo.

So then I decided we were ready for "yer out, yer in" remembered to say the release word, invited her out and gave her a bit of chicken, remember no collar or lead, and she nicked off up the hall way. Nothing interesting up there so she came back and said "gimme chicken", I said "in the crate", she said "not going in there, honest", so I chucked a bit of chicken in, and in she went, so loads of praise, more chicken, shut the door, open the door feed up the back, shut the door, repeat twice, and then I said release word and encouraged her out, more chicken and finished.

I figure with her, having kibble when she's out, doesn't make sense to her. It either means the same as chicken as far as she's concerned or she thinks I've run out of chicken (despite what she can see and smell on the shelf next to the crate), and she's only going to get kibble if she goes back in. Or she thinks something else.

Anyway it's looking more like the DVD, which is promising. It only took about fifteen minutes, including me taking a couple of breaks to do other things, to run through this time.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Good points all. We've been doing something vaguely equivalent to stage 1 for a couple of weeks, without closing the door. So stage 1 and 2 are really easy. Ie she does that exactly as described on the video without making any mistakes.

Sometimes I under estimate her ability to learn. I taught her "touch" my hand that I'm holding out, ages ago, and didn't do any more with it. Wednesday night - people were doing "two on, two off, touch the jar lid with nose" contact work. And I hadn't taught her "touch the jar lid". It took about three treats for her to "get it" this morning on our walk. I hold my hand out, she touches that, I point at the jar lid - she touches that - wooo hoo. Probably need to practice it more but that was super fast.

People were commenting how obedient she is, and I said we're just playing games. Obedient. Not. I couldn't get the composted grass clippings off her. Sigh.