Correcting The Give Command

[giraffez]

I can't seem to get my dog to do the give command. Actually he does it only when i have food in my hand. Otherwise, he just hangs on to it like he wants to play tug. I can 100% of the time get him to give when i have a treat in my hand but as soon as the food is gone, his selective hearing kicks in. How can i correct this?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I get my dog to give by stroking her under the chin. If she still doesn't give the object up, I push her lip onto her teeth. Gently. Or I push the object she has hold off back towards her so she spits it out.

I use "thank you" to trade what ever she's got for a treat. Sometimes I have to chuck a bunch of treats so she drops what she has and goes and gets the treats.

If I haven't got a treat, sometimes I pretend. Sometimes that works.

[Nekhbet]

do you play tug with the dog? Seems like he thinks the game is ending and he doesnt want it to hence he controls the reward

there is 2 ways of doing this

1) have a toy on a string (so dog cant run off with it)

- give the dog the command to release the toy and immediately reward with food

- rinse and repeat, immediately reoffering the toy when the dog has swallowed the treat

2) have 2 toys, both only in your hands (no throwing or fetching etc)

- let the dog play tug with one'

- wave the other toy in its face and say the release command

- when the dog grabs the other toy 'YES' GOOD DOG!

- rinse and repeat so you go from toy 1 to toy 2, then back to toy 1, then toy 2 etc. Great game to play while you're sitting down

both ways the dog learns the release command does not mean the end, just a break in the exercise. Dont make the dog sit inbetween etc that is not the point of the exercise, it is to teach the dog the faster you release your object the faster you will get a reward. Number 2 is how I taught all my dogs to Out and I can tell you I have never had a problem with a dog retaining an object or running off with it - that behaviour holds no reward value for them at all so why do it?

[giraffez]

Thank you both.

2) have 2 toys, both only in your hands (no throwing or fetching etc)

- let the dog play tug with one'

- wave the other toy in its face and say the release command

- when the dog grabs the other toy 'YES' GOOD DOG!

- rinse and repeat :D so you go from toy 1 to toy 2, then back to toy 1, then toy 2 etc. Great game to play while you're sitting down

My dog does this already. He will let it go if i have another in my hand..... but i still need to have something else in my hand before he lets go. How can i work on just having one?

And with option 1, running away from the toy isn't an issue, he doesn't really do that... he usually comes to me and rubs the toy all over me wanting me to grab hold of it... and he won't release without a treat

Edited October 27, 2010 by giraffez

[Nekhbet]

you gradually start moving the other item further and further away from sight until you can hold it behind your back. THen you phase it out completely. Trouble is now you have this other learned behaviour so it will take a little longer to 'get'

wanting me to grab hold of it

dont let him have free reign of the toy at all. It's always in your hand when you offer it, play some tug then offer another. At the moment he's teasing you with the toy and teaching you what to do

Edited October 27, 2010 by Nekhbet

[giraffez]

At the moment he's teasing you with the toy and teaching you what to do ;)

I need to get his talent!

[Primedogs]

I taught give with only one toy, so they don't expect a treat or a different toy before they give, though they are not 100% unless I have my hand on the item.

I played with the toy then suddenly hold it still, hands holding the toy on either side of the dogs mouth so they couldn't still play. As soon as they take their mouth off the toy I say the give command, praise and then recommence the game. As this play and then give and then play again game goes on the wait for them to let go of the toy shortens and eventually I could ask them to give without hlding the toy as still.

[flyingduster]

the problem is that you have openly taught him that unless there is food (or a toy) in sight, then there is no reason to give. You've bribed him by wafting the food and essentially saying "seeeeeeee what I haaaavvve? Now if you're a gooood boy you can get it!" You need to SWITCH your training from bribery, to payment. You don't get bribed into doing your job, but you do still get paid for it. There's a distinct difference, and it's so easy to fall into the bribery trap with dogs!!!

First thing I'd do is set yourself up for lots of repetitions from the start, have the toy, and lots of treats ready. Do your usual thing of having the treat and bribing him into giving you the toy (get a treat, hold it out, ask for the 'give', take the toy and pop in the food and throw the toy for the next round) Do that maybe 3 times in a row. On the 4th time, having thrown the toy for him, and he's come back, reach for a treat, PRETEND alllll the world like you have one (hold your hand as if you are holding a treat) and ask for the give. Most dogs will assume you still have food, and will do it. Here's the fun bit; if you were 'offering the treat' with your left hand, and he gives you the toy, then immediately reward him with a treat from your right hand. Vis visa if you were pretending to offer with your right, you'd want to *actually* reward with your left hand.

*side note in here, and I will carry on again in a sec* if your dog takes one whiff of your hand and KNOWS you don't have any food and just says 'naaaah' when you try it on that 4th time with no treat, then you want to have a teeny treat in your 'offering' hand to 'bribe' them still, but have a bigger yummier treat to PAY them from the other hand when they give. Do NOT give them the 'bribe' treat. Fade the 'bribe' treat to nothing fairly quickly, as long as you are rewarding with the better treat from the other hand **end side note**

The key part here is that you do NOT follow through with a bribe, but instead you PAY afterwards with the reward. You mustn't waft your reward about for the dog or it becomes a bribe again, you are only going through the motion of bribing cos you're having to re-train this behaviour. Go through the motions, but you instead offer a reward for a job well done. The payment has to come from the other hand to differentiate, from the dogs point of view, to the bribe you were (falsely) offering, and the payment has to appear AFTER the dog has done the request.

As long as you keep doing this (faking a bribe, following through with a good payment [from the other hand] once the job is done) and always still follow through with a reward every time you ask for a give, then you should be able to wean him off needing the bribery of SEEING the reward first. For now I'd still always always offer a reward, to prevent him going sour to the whole idea of giving at all, but as he gets happy to offer a give whenever you ask for it you can reward him with another toy toss or a game of tug etc.

Edited October 28, 2010 by flyingduster

[poodlefan]

Change the game to your rules.

I'd be teaching a formal give and take with the dog in the sitting position. Use a new cue as you've tainted the old one.

Have the dog sitting. Offer him the toy and if he takes it praise him. Then ask for it with your new cue.. "please" is one I've heard used.. then reward and this time fade that lure.

The sit should cue the dog that this is not a tugging game. An obvious change like that should help.

[Nekhbet]

just to add the reason I dont like forcing a dog to out is I want it to stay in drive. Especially in something like bitework a dog in high drive will not want to end the game, and hence you see people wrestling items away from the dog. I started my dogs from day one and I have them releasing without argument or trying to hide it from me because they learned it's not end game, it's simply a break and more fun will soon follow.

[Simply Grand]

Excellent advice everyone, thanks! And thanks for asking the question giraffez, great timing for me! I need to work on this with Saxon so I can use a toy for obedience and agility training instead of food all the time.

Will teaching him the cue while sitting still affect us in agility, where I'll be asking him to run after the toy sometimes? Would I be better using the throw and bring back method flyingduster explained?

[giraffez]

Some very good advice guys, thanks. I will be experimenting this weekend

the problem is that you have openly taught him that unless there is food (or a toy) in sight, then there is no reason to give. You've bribed him by wafting the food and essentially saying "seeeeeeee what I haaaavvve? Now if you're a gooood boy you can get it!" You need to SWITCH your training from bribery, to payment. You don't get bribed into doing your job, but you do still get paid for it. There's a distinct difference, and it's so easy to fall into the bribery trap with dogs!!!

Nicely put and so true! I never saw it this way but i can relate to it.

Good luck saxonpup, hope u dont need to undo the give command like i have to and start again