2 Dogs Fighting

[Winterpaws]

What do you mean you've tried separation? Have you seen a behaviourist?

If the bulldog begins to shows signs of aggression towards the other dog we separete them - also we sepearte them when they are eating (which is normal) We have not seen a behaviourist - and i dont have the belief that a dog therapist can help resolve aggression issues. I guess i may be naive in that area but i have never heard of it actually working?

So essentially rather than trying everything possible to resolve the issue you are going to pass the buck to someone else by rehoming one of the dogs....

You do realise that if the new home ends up with a DA dog they will more than likely just have the dog PTS.

As i said in an earlier post NO I AM NOT TRYING TO "PASS" my dog onto anyone else because she has a few problems. Hence the reason i logged on here to get professional advice and advice from others that have been through the same thing i dont see that as "passing" on my dog i see that as taking a proactive approach to helping my dog. I absolutely adore my Bulldog and will try anything which is why i logged on here!!!

Well I am truly sorry if your posts don't come across that way but you have been given really sensible advice

a) don't let them run togethor

b) get a behaviorist in to help

You didn't like that advice???

If you follow that advice and you still have issues then my comments would be completely different, but I am responding to what YOU write

Get them some runs or some way to separate them so the fights can't happen and then get some professional help and advice. That will at least give you an unbiased opinion from someone who truly knows the dogs.

If you don't believe in a seeing a behaviorist then I think it is very unfair to move the problem on to someone else.

This is the rule I always lived by when we had rescue and foster dogs - would I trust the dog? Was there any possibility that one day I might read an article in the paper and that dog had attacked another dog, or god forbid a child holding a dog. If you can answer yes then you have to ask yourself whether you can ethically rehome that dog.

I'm not saying give up on your dog - I'm saying you need to do everything to try and work out why the issues are happening and if there is any possible way you can fix them. If it means they live in separate parts of the yard then so be it

[tdierikx]

I currently have 2 bitches (large breed) who I will never let run together again. I had 4 fights in 2.5 years - the last 2 fights had 15 months between them. After the last fight and and a whopping great vet bill to patch them up, they simply will never be allowed to be in the same place at the same time. It's lots of fussing and farting to make sure that one is secured while the other is out, but both of the dogs are much happier for it - and they don't have to share me, space, or anything.

Add to the above the fact that I foster care puppies for rescue, and both of my own dogs help me socialise them, it can almost be a fulltime job some days to make sure everyone gets their share of the attention... lol!

I cannot rehome either of my girls because I know exactly what they are capable of when pushed the right way... separating them permanently works for them, and the alternative... well - that's not an alternative in my books. They are my "babies" and I'm happy as long as they are happy with the separation (and switch and shuffle) routine.

My honest advice - as someone in excactly the same position you find yourself in - is to either work out how to permanently separate them and keep both... or (sadly) euthanaise the one that starts all the barneys.

T.

[matilda1]

This will get worse.

It will not fix itself.

One will die if you do nothing and it happens while you are out, yes it will then be your fault.

Is she aggressive to all dogs, or just the other bitch?

Yes,you were trying to pass the buck, in your first post you said you needed to rehome her.

Step up and do something about it, saying you love her like a child isn't going to fix anything.

Aggression is a behavoir, so why don't you think it will help.

Too many good dogs die everyday that rescue can't help, no one will take on a DA one. :D

You probably got the same good advice the first time, hope you listen this time.

Unless the person rescuing the dog isn't told (like I wasn't when I rescued some time back) and ends up with an absolute disaster on their hands and MORE problems than the initial owner as time has passed and behaviours have now progressed.

unfortunately the end in this kind of situation is usually not desirable.

mine ended in Euthanasia and I was the one to spend lots of time, effort and money on behaviourists and different possible solutions.

if you don't deal with it NOW it will get harder and harder and the chance of resolving the dogs' issues will get harder and harder.

I wish you luck, and hope you are genuine in trying to work it out.

If you DO decide to rehome make sure you are HONEST as lives are at stake. Both human, your dog and that of other pets.

And chances are the new well meaning owner will get the blame for destroying a dog like I did. But in all probability by the time YOU pass the dog on to someone else the upheaval in the dogs life coupled with the issues already present are going to be just too much.

I wish you and your dog well in whatever you decide.

[AmandaJ]

I know this is a heart breaker - I have been there- I miss my "Boo" to bits sometimes "shit happens" and nature needs to take her course- they are dogs- they come from wolf lines - they are predators - their need to feed is paramount - pack control is the driving force.

I do understand what you are going through...I've been there..

I'm here if you need me

[Simply Grand]

Sorry OT but... how stressful your home must of been... or did you end up getting use to it?

I'm not Crisovar, but I actually felt some relief when I decided to separate my dogs and made appropriate arrangements to do so. My dogs are much happier, no tension, no wasted energy trying to avoid trouble. Now when they are together they get along very well because they are only ever together when they are doing something I have conditioned them to do together. Dietary changes have also helped. Well worth seeing someone who can offer practical advice tailored to a particular situation.

This is what I was thinking too, it has to be less stressful for both dogs to have their own space where they don't need to worry about being aggressive or defensive. Both those emotions/actions take a lot of energy for the dogs. If they know they are safe in their own space they're likely to be happier. And of course it will be better for the human family.

(And Aidan I'm not just saying this because I think you're awesome, although I do, you're my dog behaviour idol )

Correct - PURE separation will stop the fighting...It will not fix the problem. It does not matter what the breed is. I had a very enlightening conversation with a psychologist a few weeks ago on behavioral psychology. Human psychologists believe that behavior is 100% genetic - it is only our ability for cognitive thinking that alters our reaction to a situation.

Sorry Amanda but to say that "human psychologist believe that behaviour is 100% genetic is just NOT TRUE! Maybe you spoke to someone who said that but you can't say that all human psychologists believe that... that just isn't true.

Separation of the dogs will at least stop them killing each other while the issues are sorted out.

Subzero12, please stick around and take on whatever advice makes sense to you. Most of us really do want to help you and your dogs and would love to hear how your situation turns out, whether good, bad or in between. Most of us are not here to judge, just to try and help (ok maybe we have some personal opinions but in the end just want the kindest outcome for dog/s and human/s).

[matilda1]

I know this is a heart breaker - I have been there- I miss my "Boo" to bits sometimes "shit happens" and nature needs to take her course- they are dogs- they come from wolf lines - they are predators - their need to feed is paramount - pack control is the driving force.

I do understand what you are going through...I've been there..

I'm here if you need me

errrr.....no they don't !!!!

But I get what you are trying to say

[Aidan]

Human psychologists believe that behavior is 100% genetic - it is only our ability for cognitive thinking that alters our reaction to a situation.

Are you sure she didn't say that genes were involved 100% of the time? Psychologists have a range of opinions, but the most popular is the "gene x environment" approach. Another approach is the "diathesis-stress" model which is mostly applied to mental illness, but could be applied to other traits. The diathesis-stress model posits that a genetic potential exists (for whatever heritable trait) but must be triggered by something in the environment going over a certain threshold. These models are related and work together, most psychologists wouldn't deny one on the basis of the other. Both models would appear to make sense in this case, and still allow for the possibility of behaviour modification.

As I have said previously, my dogs are separated at home. They are not separated elsewhere. I have been able to condition a repertoire of behaviours for when we are on a walk, for e.g., in response to things they are likely to do or things that are likely to happen. The genetic potential for a fight is certainly still there, and I cannot do much to change that, but I have conditioned them to do things other than fighting.

Behaviour does have a biological basis. Everything we do is based on nervous impulses. If the impulse is strong enough, "neurotransmitters" are released which either excite or inhibit nervous processes. There are over a hundred neurotransmitters that we have identified, each plays a different role.

Our neurons and neurotransmitters are genetically and environmentally determined. Our body has a plan which is in action the moment the sperm meets the egg, but everything that happens thereafter changes it to some extent. Even the food we eat, or the amount of light we receive will have a fairly strong impact on our behaviour. One of the key factors in aggression (in humans) is "heat"! We are less aggressive when we are cool, and more aggressive when we are hot (which has lead to the sayings "chill out" or "a bit hot under the collar"). Something that seems so trivial has such a large effect on our behaviour.

[Robbi]

I have had two bitches in the past but never again, my two had lived together for six years when one day down the beach they ran into each other as they were playing, it was the most awful dog fight I have ever witnessed and cost me many thousands of dollars at the vets to have them repaired, from that day on they were seperated at all times.

Please listen to the advice given to you on this thread by some very knowledgeable dog trainers/behaviourlists and think twice before re-homing a problem dog there are many things that can befall a dog worse than a humane euthanasia.

[Aussienot]

I am guessing that the shonky merchant who sold you the puppy will not take her back, since anyone who would sell at puppy at 6 weeks is only interested in pumping out a product to make a quick buck. Hopefully you will know better next time.

I'll be one more telling you to keep them totally apart at all times. Whatever you have done before was not separation. They must never be physically together again. Never. There must always be at least one barrier between them, and better if it's two.

I've lived with two incompatible dogs, and it's stressful, always being careful. You're always afraid of what will happen if you make a mistake. You're not one house with two dogs. you have to give each dog half of your time. Wouldn't recommend it. Not the ideal way to live; but if you really "love her like a child' you will do what you have to do.

Of course, your son and husband will have to obey the never together rule, and the other dog which you describe as theirs will not live the life she did before you got the second dog. She's the one I feel sorry for.

From what you have written, I don't predict a happy life for your younger dog. Re-homing is out of the question. It would be good to get the opinion of a experienced behaviourst who would have dealt with similar situations to talk you through your options. You've expressed scepticism that a behaviourist is required. If you do decide to keep both dogs, a good behaviourist will make your life easier.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Subzero, its no big deal no need to worry. Lots of people have these kinds of problems. Anybody who has multiple dogs, of the same sex and similar size run the risk of this kind of situation developing.

Just keep them separate. It might sound like a hassle at first but when you have your method worked out and get into a habit its no problem. One dog here, one dog there, swap them at prescribed times during the day, and so forth.

If there is ever a mistake and they fight again, never try to break it up on your own. Always two people. One handler on each dog, hold the dogs firmly, wait until one lets go, and pull them off.

[OSoSwift]

I had two bitches that fought, the had had the odd little growling match but no more on and off. They were never together when I wasn't with them.

One night they decided to fight and it was a good one.

They were never together after that unless I was walking them-they were fine then- they wore basket muzzles in the car and I carried a horse whippet just incase.

There dog runs were next to each other and they would growl at each otehr when they walked past each other (I had no option but to have them next to each other) there was a tarp between so they could see each other all the time.

Your dogs need to be seperated and now. IT needs to be strictly enforced or you could have severly damaged or a dead dog.

Each time they have a fight they get practice at it and get better at it meaning that more damage will occur.

It is very stressful to have two dogs on a property who hate each other and will try to kill each other. It can be done but to be honest when my old girl died of old age it was a relief to not have to be thinking all of the time so as not to accidentally let them out together.

Rehoming wasn't an option for me so it was managment.

[conztruct]

Sub,

It's awful when dogs fight - but when the reality or potential for this is there, separation is a solution that works for the dogs and owners physical and mental health.

My dogs are crate trained and have separate secure runs, and all take turns at having run of the yard (never together though) and they are happy and healthy. They are powerful dogs and I'd hate to be in the situation where I had to try and separate them if they decided they didn't like each other. It is a situation that I have chosen to avoid without exploring the possibilities (I've decided it's not worth it) and it's worked well for me and there's less stress on the dogs and me.......

If there's one thing I'd suggest to you, it's that rehoming is not a good idea with a dog that has exhibited the behaviour you have described. Even if you give the new owner full disclosure and explain what has happened, honestly how would you feel if there was an incident......it's just not worth the risk. That's only my opinion.

I hope you find a solution that works for you and the dogs.

[KnucklesDutchnUs]

Sorry subzero but you would think you would have learned your lesson after the FIRST fight ! Why would you try and have these two bitches (of those breeds) together again after such a serious FIRST fight? You were only asking for trouble......especially as one is a American Bulldog..a breed that IMO is the "new" pitbull about to flood the market ..selling to tough dog seeking yobbo's here in Australia. Not saying you're a yobbo........but why on earth would you or anyone want such a breed when there are so many NICE breeds available?

I suppose I will get flamed for that comment but the fact is I have come across at least half a dozen of that breed in the last 12 months and NOT ONE has had good stable temperament or character. The breed is a disaster waiting to happen....as you have found out through th fight you had on your hands.

JMO.

Nothing but a pointless post of no help to OP what so ever!

There are so many NICE breeds available,

and that Is according to who???

You!...... :rolleyes:

But off course half a dozen examples of the breed Is enough for you make such a harsh judgment on them! an ENTIRE breed!!

I find Tapferhund's comments regarding AmBulls inflammatory.

[Everythings Shiny]

Sorry subzero but you would think you would have learned your lesson after the FIRST fight ! Why would you try and have these two bitches (of those breeds) together again after such a serious FIRST fight? You were only asking for trouble......especially as one is a American Bulldog..a breed that IMO is the "new" pitbull about to flood the market ..selling to tough dog seeking yobbo's here in Australia. Not saying you're a yobbo........but why on earth would you or anyone want such a breed when there are so many NICE breeds available?

I suppose I will get flamed for that comment but the fact is I have come across at least half a dozen of that breed in the last 12 months and NOT ONE has had good stable temperament or character. The breed is a disaster waiting to happen....as you have found out through th fight you had on your hands.

JMO.

Nothing but a pointless post of no help to OP what so ever!

There are so many NICE breeds available,

and that Is according to who???

You!...... :rolleyes:

But off course half a dozen examples of the breed Is enough for you make such a harsh judgment on them! an ENTIRE breed!!

I find Tapferhund's comments regarding AmBulls inflammatory.

So do I, I may not be there biggest fan, but I would never generalise like that. It's like saying all German people are Nazi's, or some other rubbish.

I have seen so many nasty dogs in almost every breed of dog throughout my career.

I had fostered a cattle dog x pointer who ended up almost killing one of my dogs months after we took her on. Dogs are unpredictable, as a people.

I think the safest thing with these two dogs is, seperate [PERMANENTLY] and see a behavioralist. A GOOD behaviouralist will be able to give you a good idea.

[megan_]

How about we all just ignore TF's post and stop quoting it and having a debate about American Bulldogs? It isn't helping the OP...

[Miss Danni]

Subzero,

I spent years and years with bitches that hated each other's guts. I could have them together under my close supervision, but they were always seperated when I was not around. My husband could not control them, they ignored him and they had a few nasty fights because he could not follow the "rules of seperation". This situation only ended when one of them died. It is a horrible way to live. It caused extra problems if we wanted to go away, one of the dogs had to be boarded while the others were at home with the pet minder. When kids were around I had to have everything key locked so there could be no accidents.

Over the years we have had other bitches that have not liked each other and I made the decision a long time ago that I would never live like that again, so, as long as they are fine with other dogs and people, one of them has to to be rehomed to an appropriate household.

Bitches will absolutely kill each other, they will never "get over it" like males can, no matter what you do. Even with a behaviouralist's assistance, I think that you would be looking at seperation forever.

For the last 6 years my new partner and I have had a large harmonious pack of entire bitches that all get on, can play, sleep and eat together even when in season or pregnant. They even tolerate the odd temporary resident without issues. But I will forever be on my guard watching for signs of trouble and not be complacent, because bitches are bitches.

I wish you the best of luck and hope that everything works out for you.