Herding Talk Thread

[JulesP]

I found it fascinating at the weekend to watch how the stock reacted to the different dogs. How close they would let dogs get, whether they scattered and split etc

[cmkelpie]

I am working on keeping Tilly back and out of the sheep's flight zone at the moment. I can really see them settle when she is not right up in their face. Means she is a whole lot faster at collecting a break away as well

[superminty]

I guess the pressure wouldn't diminish by backwards steps if the dog was still in the flight zone. Perhaps that is the difference?

Yes and as the flight zone is fluid so where the edge is is some circumstances is where it is in other spots. Stepping backwards can relieve pressure and settle sheep if they are suddenly feeling more threatened such as at the mouth of an obstacle. We are not talking about walking backwards for metres and metres but say 2-10 dogs steps.

I can see how the backwards walking could work but it is just not something I would teach. Down here it is something we are trying to get people NOT to teach! Hence why I find it interesting that is is desirable to other people.

Instead I teach my dog to find that flight zone and adjust to it. If he is too close and the stock are being threatened/stressed, I would flank him out - a clear and instant release of pressure to settle the stock. I put the responsibility of finding the flight zone on my dog. If he gets it wrong, he gets flanked out to try again. Whe he is flanked out, I expect him to completely release those stock - lateral or backwards body movement, eyes averted. If he doesn't, he isnt allowed to leave. Once he hits the new edge, he can turn in and apply pressure again where I require it (indicated using a balance cue).

As I said earlier, just a difference in methods.

I expect him to work out where the flight zone is coz I have no idea most of the time It's much more obvious when driving. When fetching, you become the lead sheep and the flight zone is drastically reduced.

[piper]

Instead I teach my dog to find that flight zone and adjust to it. If he is too close and the stock are being threatened/stressed, I would flank him out - a clear and instant release of pressure to settle the stock. I put the responsibility of finding the flight zone on my dog. If he gets it wrong, he gets flanked out to try again. Whe he is flanked out, I expect him to completely release those stock - lateral or backwards body movement, eyes averted. If he doesn't, he isnt allowed to leave. Once he hits the new edge, he can turn in and apply pressure again where I require it (indicated using a balance cue).

I guess it is different backgrounds and different experiences but if I am seeing what you say correctly I can see how this could be an issue on non dogged sheep. I would think in averting yes and flanking out and away sheep that are not dog broke will say "see you later" and be gone. Whereas walking back but maintaining eye contact and holding the line the dog is on can make the sheep feel less threatened while still leaving the dog in a greater level of control.

Also some of the non dog broke sheep I have seen being worked even flanking the dog out if they are near an obstacle could be enough to push them away from it as they react to the movement of the dog. Not a situation you would expect to see in ANKC trials though where the stock are dog wise. I think maybe if I saw what you meant it could be different as I picture a bigger, quicker movement when you talk about flanking away than I do with a few steps backwards that Janba mentions.

[piper]

Does anyone know of what training is available in Qld these days? (for ANKC-type herding) I know someone wanting to try their dog.

Try contacting DogsQLD would be my suggestion. I'm not sure if there is a specific herding club up there or not but they should be able to tell you which clubs run trials and those clubs are likely to have members that participate and can tell you where they train.

There was a sheltie person on here who had set their property up for ANKC herding. Hesapandabear I think it is. I have no idea what training they offer if any or what it is like though. BUt you might get help there.

[MolassesLass]

Thanks Piper.

[Janba]

Instead I teach my dog to find that flight zone and adjust to it. If he is too close and the stock are being threatened/stressed, I would flank him out - a clear and instant release of pressure to settle the stock. I put the responsibility of finding the flight zone on my dog. If he gets it wrong, he gets flanked out to try again. Whe he is flanked out, I expect him to completely release those stock - lateral or backwards body movement, eyes averted. If he doesn't, he isnt allowed to leave. Once he hits the new edge, he can turn in and apply pressure again where I require it (indicated using a balance cue).

I guess it is different backgrounds and different experiences but if I am seeing what you say correctly I can see how this could be an issue on non dogged sheep. I would think in averting yes and flanking out and away sheep that are not dog broke will say "see you later" and be gone. Whereas walking back but maintaining eye contact and holding the line the dog is on can make the sheep feel less threatened while still leaving the dog in a greater level of control.

Also some of the non dog broke sheep I have seen being worked even flanking the dog out if they are near an obstacle could be enough to push them away from it as they react to the movement of the dog. Not a situation you would expect to see in ANKC trials though where the stock are dog wise. I think maybe if I saw what you meant it could be different as I picture a bigger, quicker movement when you talk about flanking away than I do with a few steps backwards that Janba mentions.

You explain it better than I do.

On the more runnier sheep flanking the dog back, particularly at an obstacle can give the sheep a chance to duck round the side of the obstacle as the point of pressure changes with the dogs movement and this looses points whether it is ANKC or 3 sheep trialling. By walking the dog backwards the pressure point or angle remains the same.

I can see how the backwards walking could work but it is just not something I would teach. Down here it is something we are trying to get people NOT to teach! Hence why I find it interesting that is is desirable to other people.

My instruction mainly comes from 3 sheep people, some of whom also very successfully ANKC herd at advanced level, so maybe that is the difference. As I do want to 3 sheep Cole this year I will go by their teachings

[Janba]

I am working on keeping Tilly back and out of the sheep's flight zone at the moment. I can really see them settle when she is not right up in their face. Means she is a whole lot faster at collecting a break away as well

I don't want the break away to reach the point where my dog has to collect them - I want him to stop it before the sheep go offline.

[piper]

When you first start on ducks has anybody ever had an issue with the dog being too forceful? I.e. You were worried they may harm the ducks? Tilly is still young (10mths) and gets incredibly hyper around things she can 'play' with. I would like to try her on ducks at some time but am a little worried that she would be dangerous. We had a rabbit that got trapped in our front paddock a while ago and although she did not try and eat it she ran it to exhaustion. I finally managed to call her off when she had it in a corner and was lying next to it play bowing and kelpie slapping it with her paw She did not seem the least bit interested in killing it like my BC would have. I think ducks would probably get the same reaction from her.

I would guess it is just a matter of slow and careful introduction, but are some dogs just completely unsuitable to work on ducks?

cmkelpie,

Over here when we introcude dogs to sucks we have a very strict long line rule with an experienced person manning the long line. We also prefer (I say prefer not must as there have been cases where we have not reuqired it before letting dogs off lead - in particular shelties and pups) to see a good response to a stop command.

So far I can't think of any dogs we have started on ducks in SA that have been felt to be totally unsuitable. A few we have suggested go back to sheep for awhile and work on flank commands and control which they have done and then been back on the ducks without an issue. The ducks are very pressure sensitive compared to sheep. It was explained to me that they are like sheep on power steering. 1 step from the dog can create 2m movement from the ducks.

Also many dogs that are grippy, grip as they are slightly anxious about the situation. Ducks are less intimidating so the dogs often seem to be calmer about it.

[piper]

I am working on keeping Tilly back and out of the sheep's flight zone at the moment. I can really see them settle when she is not right up in their face. Means she is a whole lot faster at collecting a break away as well

I don't want the break away to reach the point where my dog has to collect them - I want him to stop it before the sheep go offline.

Ditto. Not that either of mine do it succesfully, but that would be what I like.

I am lucky with Jazz she is naturally a nice wide worker so I haven't had too much of an issue with this. I have more issue getting her to come in and push. The best thing I have done to help her with that is use her in the yards at trials for the last 12 months. Mind you I mostly did that as she is not ready for intermediate.

I hope to get more training in this year, last year was a right off. We had 4 trial weekends all of which she worked in the yards for, 1 clinic and I think we maybe got on sheep 2 or 3 times other than that. Plus a couple of training sessions on ducks, but they were useful as we are working on driving which is best for them anyway.

[Janba]

I am working on keeping Tilly back and out of the sheep's flight zone at the moment. I can really see them settle when she is not right up in their face. Means she is a whole lot faster at collecting a break away as well

I don't want the break away to reach the point where my dog has to collect them - I want him to stop it before the sheep go offline.

Ditto. Not that either of mine do it succesfully, but that would be what I like.

Cole doesn't either all the time but he is getting better and better as he matures.

You need to plan a holiday and come to NSW and do some training here.

[dasha]

I have taught my dog a walk in then a walk out. Directly backaward. It is about being able to position your dog exactly where he need to be at any time.

If you were working 3 sheep trial dogs you need precision to be able to place your dog anywhere if needed. A direct walkout is essential as it keeps the dog in a postion while maintaining pressure on stock otherwise by the time you have flanked backwards, averted eyed eyes and then allowed you dog to find flight zone, your sheep have left the mouth of the obstacle, you need to re collect them and try again.

More often than not when working a 3 sheep trial you only need to work that lead sheep. The others follow. You need sides to position and cover to guide sheep along course. The dogs job is to balance them to the direction your shoulders are going. . YOUR body language is just as important. You will see triallers face the direction they are going. When you get to your handler circle you face the looking across the mouth of it for the dog to bring. Then as the sheep arrive to you you make a 1/4 turn to be facing the way the obstacle is going - the direction you want the sheep to go. Your dogs job is to maintain that direction and cover the mouth. When the sheep are through obstacle,you make another 1/4 turn to be facing the next direction, your dog covers and then when the sheep are on course and in postion,you then leave your hoop and proceed to next pen.

You work the sheep not the dog. You spend 90% of the course watching your sheep to read what it is thinking and to see when the lead sheep may change. Are his ears flicking, is his head up, is he eating. If they are your dog is in wrong position. The dog needs to maintain pressure to keep sheep in forward motion at all times as well as not get fear or excitemnet into the sheep.

You need a forward, back, left, right, stop, call off.

If you are at an obstacle you need to apply pressure to the lead sheep or the one that is trying to bale. Sometimes you need that dog to ealk out in a straight line so that he doesn't flank and then give the other sheep a concern in tight quarters. Sometimes you need to inch in and then as the sheep responds to pressure the dog should back away at the increment that he came in. So an inch if needed just to release pressure to allow the sheep to turn. If you flank your dog out when there is that much pressure on your sheep gain the upper hand as the dog can appear weak. It needs a good solid walk up ready to hit if needed but know when to back away too. And it need to be precise enough to work any sheep you point him to. If he goes directly out, he is still in a position to cover those other sheep. He he flanks one way, he has left the space right open for the other side to nick off. The dog should flank when needed without being told as he will be reading all those sheep under pressure an position himself ready for the next one.

Over commanding dogs diminishes the trust he will have in you as often handler error is what looses the sheep and then the dog thinks you know jack so will just not listen. A well bred working dog knows where he needs to be if you guide with your body then support with commands if needed. He can read the distance required and pressure needed, sometimes he just needs some extra oomph from you.

Edited January 10, 2011 by dasha

[JulesP]

Janba are your 3 sheep trainers border collie people? I am thinking about the benefits of training with people that specialise in your breed.

[Janba]

Janba are your 3 sheep trainers border collie people? I am thinking about the benefits of training with people that specialise in your breed.

They are as 3 sheep you need a BC, kelpie or a koolie. It does help but try to find one who also drives as well as the 3 sheep fetching.

As Colin Webster keeps telling us it doesn't matter how the dog wants to work the matters it is how the sheep want to be worked by that dog. So find someone who can really read stock as well as train a dog and you will learn heaps.

[piper]

More often than not when working a 3 sheep trial you only need to work that lead sheep. The others follow. You need sides to position and cover to guide sheep along course. The dogs job is to balance them to the direction your shoulders are going. . YOUR body language is just as important. You will see triallers face the direction they are going. When you get to your handler circle you face the looking across the mouth of it for the dog to bring. Then as the sheep arrive to you you make a 1/4 turn to be facing the way the obstacle is going - the direction you want the sheep to go. Your dogs job is to maintain that direction and cover the mouth. When the sheep are through obstacle,you make another 1/4 turn to be facing the next direction, your dog covers and then when the sheep are on course and in postion,you then leave your hoop and proceed to next pen.

Most of my instruction has been with a 3 sheep man (and it has been terribly sad him moving off the land and no longer doing herding - a big part in the reduction of my available training ) and I was taught the same. Getting Piper to work off balance used to be a hell of a job and he taught me to use my body language and I used to do the turn of the bosy especially near obstacles to reposition her. She responded far better to that than a verbal command alone.

Janba - I would LOVE to come and train with you guys for a while. Don't think I could stay anywhere near as long as I need to to learn what I want to learn though. (That wuld involve permanent relocation) LOL

[Janba]

Janba - I would LOVE to come and train with you guys for a while. Don't think I could stay anywhere near as long as I need to to learn what I want to learn though. (That wuld involve permanent relocation) LOL

I don't know. I got so much out of one day at Colins's yesterday that I am still processing it.

ETA not just fron working the older dogs but from the 4 very different puos who were worked and the comments about their working styles etc.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Janba

[Janba]

I find that sometimes it is not the lead sheep you need to work but the sheep that is looking to go through the obstacle as an escape route. I am still learning.

Cole has very good flanks and a straight walk up but for some reason has been resisting the walk back till now.

I have taught my dog a walk in then a walk out. Directly backaward. It is about being able to position your dog exactly where he need to be at any time.

If you were working 3 sheep trial dogs you need precision to be able to place your dog anywhere if needed. A direct walkout is essential as it keeps the dog in a postion while maintaining pressure on stock otherwise by the time you have flanked backwards, averted eyed eyes and then allowed you dog to find flight zone, your sheep have left the mouth of the obstacle, you need to re collect them and try again.

More often than not when working a 3 sheep trial you only need to work that lead sheep. The others follow. You need sides to position and cover to guide sheep along course. The dogs job is to balance them to the direction your shoulders are going. . YOUR body language is just as important. You will see triallers face the direction they are going. When you get to your handler circle you face the looking across the mouth of it for the dog to bring. Then as the sheep arrive to you you make a 1/4 turn to be facing the way the obstacle is going - the direction you want the sheep to go. Your dogs job is to maintain that direction and cover the mouth. When the sheep are through obstacle,you make another 1/4 turn to be facing the next direction, your dog covers and then when the sheep are on course and in postion,you then leave your hoop and proceed to next pen.

You work the sheep not the dog. You spend 90% of the course watching your sheep to read what it is thinking and to see when the lead sheep may change. Are his ears flicking, is his head up, is he eating. If they are your dog is in wrong position. The dog needs to maintain pressure to keep sheep in forward motion at all times as well as not get fear or excitemnet into the sheep.

You need a forward, back, left, right, stop, call off.

If you are at an obstacle you need to apply pressure to the lead sheep or the one that is trying to bale. Sometimes you need that dog to ealk out in a straight line so that he doesn't flank and then give the other sheep a concern in tight quarters. Sometimes you need to inch in and then as the sheep responds to pressure the dog should back away at the increment that he came in. So an inch if needed just to release pressure to allow the sheep to turn. If you flank your dog out when there is that much pressure on your sheep gain the upper hand as the dog can appear weak. It needs a good solid walk up ready to hit if needed but know when to back away too. And it need to be precise enough to work any sheep you point him to. If he goes directly out, he is still in a position to cover those other sheep. He he flanks one way, he has left the space right open for the other side to nick off. The dog should flank when needed without being told as he will be reading all those sheep under pressure an position himself ready for the next one.

Over commanding dogs diminishes the trust he will have in you as often handler error is what looses the sheep and then the dog thinks you know jack so will just not listen. A well bred working dog knows where he needs to be if you guide with your body then support with commands if needed. He can read the distance required and pressure needed, sometimes he just needs some extra oomph from you.

[dasha]

The sheep that is looking through is the sheep you take the pressure off. That sheep then becomes the lead sheep over the obstacle. If one is looking through the obstacle and it looks like it will lead the others, you take the pressure off all the sheep. 1 step backwards is often enough. If the sheep is looking at dog it is under presssure, back 1 step out, releases pressure while still showing sheep that dog is strong enough to block without giving physical ground to sheep. Basically saying this exit is closed but the other is free for the taking and I won't hurt you if you turn away from me.

Walking directly off is a little more unnatural for a strong heading dog or any strong working dog really. It is simply a command over instinct job in order to make it around the course in a time limit with minimal errors..

Arcing backwards is ok if the dog needs to hold the sheep up and you need to still walk that way. IE, you have left your delivery box heading to let out, naturally the sheep want to bolt back to mob. Dog needs to arc backwards in order to cover the whole front as well as give ground as you are walking the sheep onto him. But you are in fact just backing the dog off to allow the sheep the forward movement. The dog should not have the pressure of sheep forced on him. He is just allowing the space for the sheep to take then as the bubble reaches the dog, the dog opens the space again.

Alot of top triallers will not train the dog to give this much ground in a young dog as you want to train the dog to hold and cover before training it to give ground to sheep walking onto him. If a dog is not totally confident in walking up on sheep and strong enough to hold them, it can cause the dog to lose power to sheep and then confidence. You should teach the sheep walking onto the dog as the dog is more mature otherwise if sheep test your dog and walk to the dog, the dog may then give ground out of lack of confidence and the sheep will read that as a weakness and then you may as well walk off as the sheep will run your dog over as soon as he tries to block at an obstacle.

BTW I have seen Cole work and he is fine.

Edited January 10, 2011 by dasha

[Janba]

Alot of top triallers will not train the dog to give this much ground in a young dog as you want to train the dog to hold and cover before training it to give ground to sheep walking onto him. If a dog is not totally confident in walking up on sheep and strong enough to hold them, it can cause the dog to lose power to sheep and then confidence. You should teach the sheep walking onto the dog as the dog is more mature otherwise if sheep test your dog and walk to the dog, the dog may then give ground out of lack of confidence and the sheep will read that as a weakness and then you may as well walk off as the sheep will run your dog over as soon as he tries to block at an obstacle.

BTW I have seen Cole work and he is fine.

Cole is fine particularly in the last few months as he has finally matured mentally and is now giving me some really good work. On the weekend we worked on the dogs working the entrance to the bridge with the exit blocked. Cole covered really well when the sheep were pushed back onto him and never let his sheep pass out of the entrance to the bridge. He is a very strong dog on sheep which also has its problems with light sheep but that is how he is. I am hoping that one day they will run some ISDS style trials in NSW as that is where I free he will come into his own.

[dasha]

Well if you are getting improvement you are going in the right direction.

Even if you only improve 1% a day then that is 100 days to get a 100% improvement. Then work on the next thing.

The most part is being able to control the dog against his instincts but at the same time, not overcommand him so he can't use his instinct. He needs to be allowed to use his instincts most of the time so you don't take it out of him and make him wait for commands.