Pit Bull/amstaff Difference

[geo]

Another red herring.

The American Staffordshire Terrier is the APBT. It isn't a product of it.

A name change & bona fide standard was necessary to enable it to be accepted onto the AKC pure breed registry..

An act of love, an act of breed preservation. Job done.

Although its situation is looking decidedly shaky the more the APBT is put under scrutiny.

G.B. has declared them to be APBTs, the Queensland judiciary has declared them to be the same breed, Ontario Canada has declared them to be the same (along with the SBT I hasten to add) Banned the three of them.

A hypothetical for you, assuming you have a genuine passion for pure breeds in general, Rottweilers in particular.

Would you really consider 40lb Rottweilers types, pure bred, to be the same breed as 100lb Rottweilers types, also pure bred, simply because a privately owned company without pure breed registry accreditation said they were?

I am not saying APBT are not pure breeds. Many are.

Every different type & style of them.

It's the figuring out which one is the genuine APBT that is problem.

Is it the 35 pounders or the 60+ pounders?

The AST maybe?

Now there's a thought.

Just look around the breeders of AST's, i've seen small AST's perhaps 15-18kgs upto 45kgs!!! how's that for a difference. Now these big amstaffs (lots of big blue jowly dogs) are AKNC rego'd.

You harp on about how the APBT has varied, look in your own back yard and see the differences in amstaffs available from rego'd breeders.

If you went to a ADBA show and compared it to an AKNC amstaff show, i think you would find more range of type in the amstaffs. At the moment I don't see and difference between the AKNC and the UKC with the type of breeders they're allowing to represent the breed.

There are some great amstaff breeders on this site, keeping them true to type and to standard, but you can't deny the fact that there is a growing trend that bigger is better and it's ruining the breed from within your precious registry, and what is the AKNC doing about it? hmmmmm? ponder that for me?

[wiseguy]

There are some great amstaff breeders on this site, keeping them true to type and to standard, but you can't deny the fact that there is a growing trend that bigger is better and it's ruining the breed from within your precious registry, and what is the AKNC doing about it? hmmmmm? ponder that for me?

Absolutely, there are plenty of ''great'' Amstaff breeders, as there are of every other recognised, registered pure breeds.

These are the breeders I carefully & deliberately designate as ''ETHICAL" breeders.

Ethical breeders are the future of the pure breed dog.

Also, if you actually took the time to aquaint yourself with the AST standard you would know there is no height or weight stipulation other than 18''-19'' being preferable, weight is a proportional to height, & this, when applied to the entire breed description paints a word picture an athletic, agile dog, approx 18''-19'' to the withers.

Certainly more definative than 35lb-60lb+, height what ever, dog not to be to heavy or to rangy. what ever that is?

I haven't ever seen any ASTs that look as you have described Them.

We obviously move in different circles, I really only ever see the ethically bred types, whose owners are proud enough to exhibit them before their peers while having them judged against a bona fide standard.

Handsome dogs.

They could probably even accomplish a reasonable weight pull if their owners were so inclined.

Good breeding doesn't automatically disqualify a dog from performance, as you seem to image. It would enhance it if anything.

BTW, another little aside foryou to ponder.

There is a member of a bull breed specific site that claims his AKC registered STB is the champion weight pull dog. Claims it outpulls the pitties. I am skeptical, but that is his claim.

It isn't ''my'' registry either, however, I am a registered breeder, & all my dogs are on ''our'' internationally accredited registry, as are any I produce, in accordance with our CoE, which I do take very seriously.

[RottnBullies]

They will register the dogs but they will call them APBT.

So Wiseguy if you firmly believe that the AST is a pure bred pitbull, so why not rename all the AST's APBT in the name of originality etc..?

If you're trying to convert APBT people into believing their chosen dogs are not pure bred you're going to have a hard task. No matter how right you think you are, i think a dog that has been bred under the ADBA standards since 1909 with many many years of lineage and proof of parentage is pure enough for me.

If you believe that somehow that dog isn't pure bred because the AKC say's so, your head must be (to be polite) stuck in the sand.

Am Staff comes from the APBT, yet the Am Staff Is the real Pit Bull

Me thinks someones got one too many pink elephants floating around In his head!

Another red herring.

The American Staffordshire Terrier is the APBT. It isn't a product of it.

A name change & bona fide standard was necessary to enable it to be accepted onto the AKC pure breed registry..

An act of love, an act of breed preservation. Job done.

Although its situation is looking decidedly shaky the more the APBT is put under scrutiny.

G.B. has declared them to be APBTs, the Queensland judiciary has declared them to be the same breed, Ontario Canada has declared them to be the same (along with the SBT I hasten to add) Banned the three of them.

A hypothetical for you, assuming you have a genuine passion for pure breeds in general, Rottweilers in particular.

Would you really consider 40lb Rottweilers types, pure bred, to be the same breed as 100lb Rottweilers types, also pure bred, simply because a privately owned company without pure breed registry accreditation said they were?

I am not saying APBT are not pure breeds. Many are.

Every different type & style of them.

It's the figuring out which one is the genuine APBT that is problem.

Is it the 35 pounders or the 60+ pounders?

The AST maybe?

Now there's a thought.

They are not declared the same breed In QLD, hence If they were they would be Included In the restriction list don't you think! That's what all the fuss was about, how they are not the same breed wasn't It?

I know they are one and the same In some countries o/seas, but I am not going to debate that as I have formed my own opinion to It as have many others

So what I don't understand Is you say the real APBT Is the Am Staff, but yet I'm betting you were one of the ones screaming for blood and blaming the APBT for putting the Am Staff In the recent QLD dilema

You want It to be known who the real APBT Is, but yet you don't want them on the BSL list, how hypocritical Is that

A bit like wanting the glory but not paying the price!

As for your Rottweiler eg, well here's one for you, how different does the GSD show dog look compared to It's working dog?

Here's another one for you the APBT has records of dogs linage etc dating back to the late 1700's, how much purer do you need or want!

FACT: Pit bulls are actually one of the oldest and certainly one of the purest. Written pit bull pedigrees date into the late 1700's, something very few other breeds can boast of. Pit bulls have been a registered breed longer than most AKC breeds have been in existence. Louis Colby's father, John Colby, gave his son a handwritten pedigree of Colby's Blind Jack, an animal born in 1932. The pedigree stretches back more than 50 years, naming, in Louis Colby's words, "the best fighting dogs in England and America in the past fifty years." In the mid 1880's, the breed was already old.

Please note that I have no malace towards the Am Staff In saying what I have said, just defending my breed like any other

ETA: more Info

Edited February 27, 2011 by RottnBullies

[wiseguy]

They will register the dogs but they will call them APBT.

So Wiseguy if you firmly believe that the AST is a pure bred pitbull, so why not rename all the AST's APBT in the name of originality etc..?

If you're trying to convert APBT people into believing their chosen dogs are not pure bred you're going to have a hard task. No matter how right you think you are, i think a dog that has been bred under the ADBA standards since 1909 with many many years of lineage and proof of parentage is pure enough for me.

If you believe that somehow that dog isn't pure bred because the AKC say's so, your head must be (to be polite) stuck in the sand.

Am Staff comes from the APBT, yet the Am Staff Is the real Pit Bull :D :D

Me thinks someones got one too many pink elephants floating around In his head!

Another red herring.

The American Staffordshire Terrier is the APBT. It isn't a product of it.

A name change & bona fide standard was necessary to enable it to be accepted onto the AKC pure breed registry..

An act of love, an act of breed preservation. Job done.

Although its situation is looking decidedly shaky the more the APBT is put under scrutiny.

G.B. has declared them to be APBTs, the Queensland judiciary has declared them to be the same breed, Ontario Canada has declared them to be the same (along with the SBT I hasten to add) Banned the three of them.

A hypothetical for you, assuming you have a genuine passion for pure breeds in general, Rottweilers in particular.

Would you really consider 40lb Rottweilers types, pure bred, to be the same breed as 100lb Rottweilers types, also pure bred, simply because a privately owned company without pure breed registry accreditation said they were?

I am not saying APBT are not pure breeds. Many are.

Every different type & style of them.

It's the figuring out which one is the genuine APBT that is problem.

Is it the 35 pounders or the 60+ pounders?

The AST maybe?

Now there's a thought.

They are not declared the same breed In QLD, hence If they were they would be Included In the restriction list don't you think! That's what all the fuss was about, how they are not the same breed wasn't It?

I know they are one and the same In some countries o/seas, but I am not going to debate that as I have formed my own opinion to It as have many others

So what I don't understand Is you say the real APBT Is the Am Staff, but yet I'm betting you were one of the ones screaming for blood and blaming the APBT for putting the Am Staff In the recent QLD dilema

You want It to be known who the real APBT Is, but yet you don't want them on the BSL list, how hypocritical Is that

A bit like wanting the glory but not paying the price!

As for your Rottweiler eg, well here's one for you, how different does the GSD show dog look compared to It's working dog?

Here's another one for you the APBT has records of dogs linage etc dating back to the late 1700's, how much purer do you need or want!

FACT: Pit bulls are actually one of the oldest and certainly one of the purest. Written pit bull pedigrees date into the late 1700's, something very few other breeds can boast of. Pit bulls have been a registered breed longer than most AKC breeds have been in existence. Louis Colby's father, John Colby, gave his son a handwritten pedigree of Colby's Blind Jack, an animal born in 1932. The pedigree stretches back more than 50 years, naming, in Louis Colby's words, "the best fighting dogs in England and America in the past fifty years." In the mid 1880's, the breed was already old.

Please note that I have no malace towards the Am Staff In saying what I have said, just defending my breed like any other

ETA: more Info

1) As far as I am aware the Chivers V GCCC verdict has not been overturned. (?)

2) I don't want a bsl in any form. Silly statement.

3) GSD are not the only dogs to pay a price for people breeding to an opinion rather than the standard. That started in the USA as well btw. Brachycelphalic are also victims of flawed opinion breeding.

Measure are at hand to remedy this disgrace. Can't say the same regarding the flawed breeding of the APBT though.

4) Colby wasn't the only person to hold APBTs & as the AKC is the only legitimate pure breed register for the USA registered pure breeds can't predate it's inception. The AKC doesn't reconise the APBT as a pure breed in any case. The AKC was raised prior to the UKC so I can't where these so called pure breeds would have been registered. Point dismissed as another pitty fable.

5) I understand you wanting to protect your breed. I am on your side believe it or not.

Lies, deception & misrepresentation is a pretty ordinary way to try & achieve it though.

Chivers went that route through the legal system & lost. By her own presented evidence ffs. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Now a legal precedent has been set.

She has sown the seeds for a bull breeds holocaust.

Hope it doesn't come to pass for it does it will be brutal.

ANKC papers will be proof of guilt, not proof of breed.

[geo]

QLD has put in place legislation that declare the amstaff different to that of the pitbull. So they are not effected by BSL. AKNC papers are now proof of innocence, surely you couldn't of missed everything that went down in QLD, it was all over the forum. Perhaps read the whole thread on the Deslye Boyle link it may be in there...

Basically the GCCC stopped registering amstaffs during this court proceeding and waited for state level management to make a call, especially once they realised the gravity of the court case and that thousands of registered dogs may have had to be PTS and this certainly was the big ticket event in them realising that they perhaps had got it wrong. Not wanting to lose face, they let the QLD government make amendments to the animal control act and that was done with handshakes and dealings with the AKNC, more or less sealing the fate of thousands of mixed breed lookalike dogs who were bred at the hands of unethical breeders and are condemned even further by the ANKC not wanting to save them, just saving their own kind, thus feathering the nest of it's breeders, (not a bad thing if they were all ethical!! as i'd pay good money for a well bred dog, i just feel bad for all the mongrels who're going to suffer), though not helping fight BSL.

Also as a result of the Chivers case it was determined that there is no-one in Australia capable of identifying an APBT, so out went the 22 point checklist. As of now the GCCC has been found using an illegal checklist to determine a dogs breed, it seems they will stop at nothing to kill anything that resemble a pitbull.

Tango is back in QLD.

I think rottenbullies is right, you're definitely a reincarnation of a former member.

Edited February 27, 2011 by geo

[wiseguy]

I haven't been a member long enough to read anything that was ''all over the forum''.

I did read a recent post which indicated the Qld government was formulating new legislation relating to dog laws & the poster was very apprehensive as to the content. Really concerned in fact.

That you are blaming the ANKC for being compliant with the Qld government in this tragedy is typical of the deceipt & misinformation I deplore. You are typical of the genre. Dodge all responsibility, blame anyone & everyone. Doesn't matter who. Shift the blame at any cost.

That really is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That no one can positively identify a ''pitbull'' would only seem to demonstrate they couldn't possibly be pure breeds.

Seems strange these same people can ''positively'' i.d. a Staffordshire Bull Terrier in the mix though. Or that one isn't a ''pitbull'' but an Amstaff. How would they know that if they don't know what a pitbull looks like in the first place. Deary, deary me. Oh what a tangled web we weave.......

It would appear the Chivers judgement hasn't been appealed or overturned (?) Which would mean it is still on the books, a precedent. Just festering away. Waiting, waiting.

I would hope the GCCC is truly showing common sense & applying deed not breed to their apparently new found M.O. & not biding their time for a new legislation to be gazetted.

I also hope the ''we don't if it's a pitbull'' owners don't relax & let themselves be compromised by thinking all is forgiven.

Heres a plan.

If there isn't anyone who can identfy pitbulls, they could at least employ ACOs who can identify SBTs & ASTs.

Because if they can genuinely i.d. those breeds, they can also exonerate them.

Remembering of course that Xbreeds aren't pure breeds & should not be identified as such.

So, by the process of elimination.....

Edited February 27, 2011 by wiseguy

[Rysup]

There are PLENTY of AST's in the SHOW RING who are far bigger than 18-19 inches! Plenty. Just come to a Sydney show with a wicket.

[wiseguy]

There are PLENTY of AST's in the SHOW RING who are far bigger than 18-19 inches! Plenty. Just come to a Sydney show with a wicket.

Been there, Done that.

Can't really say I have seen many I would state were ''far bigger'' than the preferable 18''-19''. Repeat preferable

You sound disgruntled?

How tall are yours btw?

[geo]

I haven't been a member long enough to read anything that was ''all over the forum''.

I did read a recent post which indicated the Qld government was formulating new legislation relating to dog laws & the poster was very apprehensive as to the content. Really concerned in fact.

That you are blaming the ANKC for being compliant with the Qld government in this tragedy is typical of the deceipt & misinformation I deplore. You are typical of the genre. Dodge all responsibility, blame anyone & everyone. Doesn't matter who. Shift the blame at any cost.

That really is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That no one can positively identify a ''pitbull'' would only seem to demonstrate they couldn't possibly be pure breeds.

Seems strange these same people can ''positively'' i.d. a Staffordshire Bull Terrier in the mix though. Or that one isn't a ''pitbull'' but an Amstaff. How would they know that if they don't know what a pitbull looks like in the first place. Deary, deary me. Oh what a tangled web we weave.......

It would appear the Chivers judgement hasn't been appealed or overturned (?) Which would mean it is still on the books, a precedent. Just festering away. Waiting, waiting.

I would hope the GCCC is truly showing common sense & applying deed not breed to their apparently new found M.O. & not biding their time for a new legislation to be gazetted.

I also hope the ''we don't if it's a pitbull'' owners don't relax & let themselves be compromised by thinking all is forgiven.

Heres a plan.

If there isn't anyone who can identfy pitbulls, they could at least employ ACOs who can identify SBTs & ASTs.

Because if they can genuinely i.d. those breeds, they can also exonerate them.

Remembering of course that Xbreeds aren't pure breeds & should not be identified as such.

So, by the process of elimination.....

Look I found out about BSL because I had a SBT, most general people thought he was a pitbull even though to anyone with any idea about dogs etc.. he clearly wasn't. So I read and I read and I lobbied my local MP state MP's ad infinitum

All the good people of the Gold Coast that fought BSL done so as they felt so disgraced that no-one was fighting the good fight. By not fighting BSL the AKNC is condoning it. That's a fact and I'm not blaming anyone, neither am I ashamed that I continue to deal with narrow minded petty "dog lovers" who think that their dog is better than another by virtue of paperwork, you Sir Wiseguy should spend more time fighting a good cause and less running away from the problem that is BSL.

By protecting only your breed you're as guilty as the rest, and as shortsighted.

You say you think there are pure bred APBT's in one post then you post above that Quote, "couldn't possibly be pure breeds". Look this point really is mute so don't think i care to argue, just stating what you've posted.

The bottom line is the APBT is on the list, we don't wont any other breeds on the list and I will certainly join any fight to save them, but not at the risk of further tarnishing the already awful reputation of the APBT.

Actually if the SBT is in as much trouble as you believe just post on here what you want us to do and i can guarantee you that all the people you've been winding up on here will certainly help out, but if you ask them to call any cross breed of a staffy a pitbull you'll probably not get any help.

[rep628]

To quote ruthless

"The dogs on the cover have dark eyes. I would consider them to be Amstaffs. This is a blue and white APBT. I don't think such dogs exist in Australia.

http://nicolemlakarphotography.com/blog/?p=1698

I know there's the whole "they come from the same DNA" debate, but can you get Amstaffs that look like the dog in the link above?? "

Just had a bonefide, purebred, pedigreed Amstaff that looked like that in our puppy class 1 month ago, if I can photoshop the faces out, I'll post a link to show you. Of course, the pup, being a born in Australia, did have natural ears.

So I'd say "yes" you can get an Amstaff that looks like that dog in the above link, I think this puppy was sold to a "pet only home", but then again, the owners weren't forced to desex the dog at any time (they were still intending on doing so at 1 year of age, to get more muscle definition).. It just like "yes" you can get Blue German Shepherds, it just depends on the breeder - even though they're not supposed to exist and sure don't fit within ANY standard of the breed ANYWHERE.

To quote wiseguy

"American Staffordshire Terrriers have been (hopefully) bred faithfully to their registered stand, while the American Pitbull Terrier is bred to an opinion"

Have you been the a N. American show (or heck, seen a N. American dog), and then been to a show Down Under lately?!?

My male, stands faithfully at 19 inches. His dad stood at 19 inches, his mom, at 18 inches. All his siblings (and half-siblings) stand within the 16-18/17-19 inch heigh range set out in the CKC/AKC standard. On Friday, we desexed a male, purebred, pedigreed Amstaff that stood at 22 inches. A dog that took Ch. in a Royal Show back in 2008 stood at 22 inches. I've got some Amstaff breeders that are, in jest wanting to wring my neck for desexing my male, he is all they want in a sire. I'm about to attend a show where I have been warned that the judges are now seeking & Ch. dogs no less than 20-22 inches. Bred faithfully to their registered stand? Right.......

"Do your really class that colour as ''blue''?"

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html

My former Companion Animals Genetics Professor used the term "blue" - in laymans term of course. So yeah, I'd class Charcoal Grey (aka Dilution of Eumelanin and/or Phaeomelanin) as Blue - sounds prettier & more sellable to the masses anyways hehehe

I think the original Liver you're thinking of is the actual liver colour, found in labs & various spaniels, to name a few breeds.

To quote geo

"You only have to look at AST breeders pages to see that they're also breeding to their own opinions and what they take from the standard. "

"I've lost count of how many people are breeding for "solid muscle" "big bone mass" "rare blue", these people are registered breeders flaunting their wares as they think this is what people want to buy and this is the direction they feel the breed should go... "

So well said Geo, I've also been forwarned at this show I'm about to attend that bone is the new "in" thing, seems like Amstaffs in Australia are heading in the direction of West Coast American Pit Bull Terriers; size, build and colour-wise. Just like many Italian/European dogs have heads and back ends on them that won't quit WITH a long, straight topline similar to many East Coast APBT I've seen - opinions of a standard. Different from the standards of my male's line, shorter toplines, dogs to within a fraction of the standard - heck, I was warned by my males breeder, "he's lost shows because of the shape he was in that week; if I put too much weight on him, he looks like a Dachshund with an Amstaff head, judges don't like that up here". But some Amstaff lines in Canada keep truer to the APBT "lanky" legs - A look I personly prefer, and I feel contributes to better movement in a true performance way.

To quote wiseguy

"Without predujice, the UKC standard really is a pakapoo ticket for this breed in any case.

How can a genuine pure breed defining standard have a weight differential ranging from 35 to 60 pounds for the same breed & expected to be taken seriously"

That's no different than the Amstaff in Australia today. My male is 25kgs, 26kg on a fat day. The purebred, pedigree Amstaff we desexed on Friday walked in on the scales at 34.5 kilos. That's a weight range of over 20lbs.. Is that really so different from the UKC weight range? This Amstaff puppy I had in puppy class had the pleasure of meeting my female, who is, according to AKC standards, massive & out of the standard (29 kgs (64lbs) & 20.5 inches.) The owners of this puppy loved her but gave funny looks at her.. To quote them "What breed is she? (Oh, well she's an Amstaff, but she's not of show quality because she's too large for the standard) Really? Because our boy's dad is even bigger than she is"... At which point in time, my head started to explode.

I won't go into your comparision of the SBT up to Bull Mastiff size, I'm seeing that range in ANKC pedigreed dogs. You really shouldn't be looking to blame the UKC for having the sole (albeit, loose) interpretation of a standard. Frankly, you have no right to get on your high horse with what I've actually been seeing in the real world and in the show ring - that's right, the ANKC show ring.

To quote wiseguy

"I think you are well off the mark with the 30-35lb average"

I don't think you've met enough perfomance (and I don't mean fighting) APBT's. But you are right, the what is commonplace is within the 40-50lb mark. The beauty of a nice APBT is that there isn't a lot of conditioning needed to get a *smart* looking dog of 40lbs, they just ARE. Until I came to Australia, I had never seen SBT's so big.. that being said, we don't have many in N. America comparatively, but they're thick here.

To quote geo

"Funny how the AKC wont recognise them as a pure breed, but had opened it's stud books to them.

As for your last comment i do find that extraordinary, most likely tit for tat."

You sir (or madam), ;)

To quote wiseguy

"So why ban the branch of the family that has been faithfully bred to a standard for 75 years, the true APBT, as opposed to a type that no one can agree what the hell it is suppose to look like?"

This post seems rather vague, and you're leaving it open for interpretation - I assume you're interpreting the ANKC/AKC/CKC/FCI to have the true APBT? But then again, they haven't ever acknowledged them as ABPT... *sigh* You're lucky you're voicing this opinion in an Australian (& rather, pro-ANKC) forum - I know people back home that would roast you for that comment. But then again, we all carry guns over there and support GW blindly, right?

Again, you harp on about how the UKC has this broad range of sizes/looks for varying lines. You haven't looked outside this country for what they interpret as Amstaffs. I could go on, and on about how some Amstaff lines (particularily those in Aus) have the most oddly shaped heads, ever so different than those of the rest of the world, or as I showed with actual examples above, size variations no different to the UKC. But then the further I read into this, the more I came to realize you're just one of these people that believes that it's not a dog if it doesn't have papers - and papers that will specifically get it to Crufts.. ooooo Crufts, the biggest, most over-inflated beauty pageant in Dogdom. But again, the performance world & show world have really, never been able to agree on what will be "THE Standard". Nor, do I think they ever will see eye-to-eye. But that's not a bad thing, imho

"G.B. has declared them to be APBTs, the Queensland judiciary has declared them to be the same breed, Ontario Canada has declared them to be the same (along with the SBT I hasten to add) Banned the three of them."

Most government bodies in North America ban all 3 types of the bully breeds (APBT, AST, SBT). They, like I do, recognize the little difference in the breeds, no matter the registry.

It's only Australia (who blindly, I might add, followed Britain in the joke that is BSL) that seems to think their ANKC registered dogs are so damn special. But that's what happens when you're an island nation..

You say you want ACO's (and other dog professionals) who can identify AST? They would peg my male as an APBT because he has cropped ears (that's a direct comment from them) - Shelter staff in some areas are identifying AST on size... are they within the ANKC standard of 18-19 inches? Yes? AST. No? APBT. So what does that say of your precious ANKC dogs..? Under those professionals, they would kill many of you "to standard" dogs. Identifying, even by the "professionals" is such a convoluted matter. Just like you're making this such a convoluted issue - for what? To prove that the because AKC opened it's registry to Amstaffs, and that makes them legit.. again, legit to whom? Just because a German Shepherd is registered to the ANKC doesn't really make it legit to those who practice VPG/IPO.. and techniqually, if Germany, if a German Shepherd doesn't acheive an IPO in VPG (formally known to the public as Schutzhund), the dog is a useless animal in breeding circles/betterment of the breed.

Your mindless prattle about these, at best debateable minutia of the pit bull type breed is exactly why this country can't resolve it's Breed Specific Legislation problems. And, in all likelihood, you've turned many people new to this forum off discussion on this topic - which, I might add, was moving in a good direction of education, understanding and straight-forward discussion.

[geo]

Thanks for a decent post Rep628. Your last post on this thread was really good and probably opened my eyes up to a few things.

It certainly should make people not ponder what side of the fence they sit on but why aren't we all sitting on the same side together fighting BSL.

I posted on the news thread about Scotland changing its dog laws to Deed not breed, hopefully they have the details right and it succeeds in reducing dog attacks and improving dog ownership.

[wiseguy]

rep628

I can't be bothered answering your entire waffle point by point.

However.

I have attended dogs shows in Nth America, in both Canada & the USA.

I have chatted to owners/exhibitors of Staffordshire Bull Terriers, which people should remember are a minority breed there, & contrary to your rave, the examples I saw & quickly went over, were generally not of a comparable quality to their Australian counterparts.

I was disappointed with some aspects of the breed in the UK as well.

Contrary to your misinformation, the Nth American dogs were invariably taller & coarser than the average dogs of show quality seen in Australia.

Australia is on top of the game regarding the SBT. Par excellence

I did not get to see any APBTs, they aren't exhibited at CKC & AKC sanctioned championship shows. Not being registered pure breeds. Not even in their country of origin. Which is food for thought.

Regarding the AST. Their standard states height of 18''-19'' is PREFERABLE, not compulsory, weight to be proportional.

So your story of a 22'' dog, while not preferable was still acceptable by the standard, really has no relevence to the discussion.

You did the right thing by neutering him btw. More power to you. Always strive for ideal.

My participation in this fib fest isn't about breeds, good, bad or indifferent, not even the APBT, it is about the amount of misinformation, half truths & just plain lies constantly being disseminated.

You are a player in that dissemination..

edit.

''you Sir Wiseguy should spend more time fighting a good cause and less running away from the problem that is BSL.''

''We'' have our hands full protecting our breeds against people like you geo, people just like you, whose strategy is based solely on deceipt, & without even so much as a blush.

''You'' are the initial threat the bull breeds need to repel geo, you.

There is not much chance of victory fighting with your head down pointing at your neighbour.

Edited February 27, 2011 by wiseguy

[wiseguy]

Forgot to answer this little gem.

Many thanks geo

To quote geo

"Funny how the AKC wont recognise them as a pure breed, but had opened it's stud books to them.

As for your last comment i do find that extraordinary, most likely tit for tat."

You sir (or madam),

Proves they are the same breed. Amen.

Gene pool expansion. Nothing untoward there.

I don't know the criterior involved, but I would imagine it was very selective, very very selective, certainly not open slather, any old dog will do.

Edited February 27, 2011 by wiseguy

[geo]

edit.

''you Sir Wiseguy should spend more time fighting a good cause and less running away from the problem that is BSL.''

''We'' have our hands full protecting our breeds against people like you geo, people just like you, whose strategy is based solely on deceipt, & with even so much as a blush.

''You'' are the initial threat the bull breeds need to repel geo, you.

There is not much chance of victory fighting with your head down pointing at you neighbour.

I have taken it upon myself to promote the SBT at the local school whilst doing a talk, educate people on some of the differences between bull breeds, mainly sizes and how the SBT is not APBT!! Also having a young daughter I've promoted dog ownership at playgroup and the do's / don'ts of dog interaction and children, i am but one person letting everyone I know about responsible dog ownership, in fact I think it pisses everyone off on how much I harp on about it

I have no idea why i'm a threat to the SBT or any other bull breed,

I am not pointing any fingers and it's like you're trying to use the same argument that we've used to prove on this thread that you're barking up the wrong tree. eg, APBT people say they had no help from people "like you" now you're blaming us for apparently putting the SBT in a similar predicament.

If you do actually read any of the posts, you'll see I've asked time and again for proof of when and how an APBT has been id'd as a SBT during a dog attack.

I've also asked you to come up with a solution and we'll support you, apparently you just want to win a discussion on a forum instead of actually taking any action.

Please make your next post positive, enough with the deceipt, lies, name calling etc.. because it really serves no purpose in the grand scheme on things.

People should be able to view this forum and be educated about BSL, positive ownership etc.. not get confused by hearsay, supposition and accusations about how the APBT is at fault for anything that is perpetrated by a SBT or it's crosses.

[geo]

Proves they are the same breed. Amen.

Have i said anything to the contrary? I did ask you to read rep628's earlier post on this, to which i agree.

Funny that as mentioned by rep628 working GSD's in Germany are the only GSD's worth breeding, same breed as their show counterparts but very different. Though i do believe that many AST's (AKNC) would be more than capable of earning working dog titles, not just agility.

It's funny cause i thought you were of the opinion that the AST is it's own breed, so far removed from the APBT that it should be recognised as it's own breed and not subject to BSL, (which it shouldn't be, same as the APBT shouldn't). yet you call it the true APBT (how can it be if it hasn't been worked for 75 years)

In that case.. should anyone calling their dog true APBT only have the right to do so if they're game bred fighting dogs from old fighting blood lines? which would mean that there are very few about and that all of our APBT's are in fact AST's ?as they've been bred for family pets, show dogs, shutzhund etc..

Yet you flamed Kylie Chivers for bringing the good name of the AST down by saying it was the same breed as APBT, yet you believe her!! and are saying so publicly therefore further denigrating the AST in your own words!

pot this is kettle, are you black? why no sir i'm a very very dark shade of grey mixed with black that in the eyes of many i look completely black but i don't believe it..

[wiseguy]

Proves they are the same breed. Amen.

Have i said anything to the contrary? I did ask you to read rep628's earlier post on this, to which i agree.

Funny that as mentioned by rep628 working GSD's in Germany are the only GSD's worth breeding, same breed as their show counterparts but very different. Though i do believe that many AST's (AKNC) would be more than capable of earning working dog titles, not just agility.

It's funny cause i thought you were of the opinion that the AST is it's own breed, so far removed from the APBT that it should be recognised as it's own breed and not subject to BSL, (which it shouldn't be, same as the APBT shouldn't). yet you call it the true APBT (how can it be if it hasn't been worked for 75 years)

In that case.. should anyone calling their dog true APBT only have the right to do so if they're game bred fighting dogs from old fighting blood lines? which would mean that there are very few about and that all of our APBT's are in fact AST's ?as they've been bred for family pets, show dogs, shutzhund etc..

Yet you flamed Kylie Chivers for bringing the good name of the AST down by saying it was the same breed as APBT, yet you believe her!! and are saying so publicly therefore further denigrating the AST in your own words!

pot this is kettle, are you black? why no sir i'm a very very dark shade of grey mixed with black that in the eyes of many i look completely black but i don't believe it..

The portions of rep628s posts that I am cognisant with are not a proper representation of the truth. IMO.

Similarly, with your continued distortions of what I have posted, I can only suspect they are merely further nefarious attempts to distort the truth for some sort of a illconceived agenda that I can't fathom?

Çhivers case?, better if read what was actually said. Which has scant resemblance to what you have just claimed.

Also I would much prefer if you are to quote me at all, at least have the good grace to quote in the entirety &/or in context. Your dishonesty is shameful.

Until you embrace facts rather than fallacy you will remain part of the problem, not the solution.

If the ANKC registered GSDs are so bad as to be discounted as working dogs I wonder why the Police & rescue organisations only accept ANKC registered GSD puppies from ANKC member breeders?

How would you ever get the opinion I thought the AST & APBT were seperate breeds? Just another example of your duplicity.

You should try honesty for a change, it doesn't hurt.

I can attest to that.

[geo]

What have I just claimed with regards to the Chivers case? Bloody legends in my eye's, maybe you should ask Jon for some pointers and tips on how to deal with the laws, in fact if they hadn't fought this case all the way the laws wouldn't have been changed at federal level and provided the route for the AKNC to safeguard the AST, albeit in a round about way! possibly a few mistakes but no regrets.

Still your posts are personally aimed at me, I've said I'll help you, I've asked for proof of your accusations, still nothing, not one solution

I made no reference to AKNC GSD's, where did i mention AKNC GSD's weren't upto standard? oh that's right i didn't...

The police have to follow strict guidelines on their purchase of dogs, ethically bred etc.. to meet their own auditing requirements. Same as any business has preferred suppliers that meet quality assurance standards, business insurance, registration etc..

Luckily the Police in the USA can rely upon people like Diane Jessup to provide APBT to perform their work alongside them.

[poodlefan]

What have I just claimed with regards to the Chivers case? Bloody legends in my eye's, maybe you should ask Jon for some pointers and tips on how to deal with the laws, in fact if they hadn't fought this case all the way the laws wouldn't have been changed at federal level and provided the route for the AKNC to safeguard the AST, albeit in a round about way! possibly a few mistakes but no regrets.

Still your posts are personally aimed at me, I've said I'll help you, I've asked for proof of your accusations, still nothing, not one solution

I made no reference to AKNC GSD's, where did i mention AKNC GSD's weren't upto standard? oh that's right i didn't...

The police have to follow strict guidelines on their purchase of dogs, ethically bred etc.. to meet their own auditing requirements. Same as any business has preferred suppliers that meet quality assurance standards, business insurance, registration etc..

Luckily the Police in the USA can rely upon people like Diane Jessup to provide APBT to perform their work alongside them.

What laws have been changed at the federal level? I'm not aware of any. The only federal law that I'm aware of relating to the APBT is the import ban.

[geo]

What laws have been changed at the federal level? I'm not aware of any. The only federal law that I'm aware of relating to the APBT is the import ban.

Sorry Poodlefan, I meant State level legislation.

[rep628]

Thanks for a decent post Rep628. Your last post on this thread was really good and probably opened my eyes up to a few things.

It certainly should make people not ponder what side of the fence they sit on but why aren't we all sitting on the same side together fighting BSL.

I posted on the news thread about Scotland changing its dog laws to Deed not breed, hopefully they have the details right and it succeeds in reducing dog attacks and improving dog ownership.

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically). That's why the tide is changing even in Ontario, one of the more recent places to enact BSL, an owner of a Rottie X Boxer ultimately had her dog seized. Ignorance knows no bounds..

That's what truly shocked me when I first came here, was the blatant ignorance by some of AST/SBT to the issue of BSL. Which is then only passed on to the rest of society - and only perpetuates the myths and the mis-identification of these types of dogs. Back in North America, we just GET IT, and I guess that why I posted what I did, and will likely continue to post some rather "obnoxious, North American style" posts, to hopefully get us all sitting on the same side of the fence

Yeah, very, VERY proud to claim my Scottish ancestry now - It's such a shame the law change has stalled in Britain at the moment, but any change on that isle is a great.. and will start a tide of change