Pit Bull/amstaff Difference

[wiseguy]

Puhleeeease,

What a pathetic reply,

"Don't bring up all they bad stuff the pitties did to in reply to my denial''.

Hypocrite,

It is obvious you weren't even in the country while this tragic drama played out.

It is obvious you weren't here when it seemed like every other day some innocent was chewed up by a pitbull.

It is obvious you weren't here when citizens buttonedholed their pollies demanding something be done.

It is obvious you don't comprehend that Joe Public not only demanded the BSL, he fully supports it because of the contempt for those JPs displayed by the pitty mob

It is obvious you have no idea of the circumstances that instigated the BSL in this country. Or any other country forr that matter.

It is obvious you don't comprehend that people, the victims, demanded the BSL.

It is obvious you support the misrepresentation of one ''breed'' to the detriment of others.

It is obvious truth, facts & playing fair are not on you agenda.

It is obvious ''we'' still need to watch our back.

For what it's worth, I have watched this drama unfold since the '80s when the pitbull first hit the headlines here as the meanest, fightingest dog on the planet!

Myth upon myth upon myth.

Puppies were selling for $10,000+

Redneck heaven. There wasn't enough puppies to go around.

It is obvious you weren't here then!

It was always a bomb with a wet wick.

Well, the wick finally burnt down, BOOM, the breed self destructed.

The pitty people could have snuffed out the wick at any time. They preferred to revel in the bad ass image.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Ok guess you weren't up to the challenge, guess you never will be. Anyway while you wallow in self "pitty" I'll help the people who're keen on "moving forward" (sorry Julia).

I was in the UK when BSL played out there so I am well versed in it's effects, the victims etc.. so there goes that argument.

Re-read my previous post and try again, if you fail, get back on that keyboard and try again, because i know you can write a nice post.

Don't patronise me.

You are railing against an outcome without knowing the circumstances that brought it to be.

You aren't helping anyone by being in denial & spinning falsehoods, playing to the crowd.

Get out of the way & let the honest people trying to work through this with sensible, rational & open methods be.

Freddy the Fib has no place in the process.

You are only a nuisance.

BTW.

Why was the BSL introduced into the UK & various other places on the the globe at all?

Do you think it is a conspirasy without justification? That the people who have demanded it are just spiteful neville nobodies?

Do you think the the stories of the dog being unsuitable to be in the general population is a vicious rumour started by all those who were mauled by one?

Or did various legislators suddenly declare ''Hey, we have some time to fill in, let's ban a dog breed, put some names in a hat & we will draw one out''

That BSL doesn't work doesn't alter the reasons it was introduced.

The road to failure is paved with good intentions.

BTW2

How could 12 APBTs appear in your stats when nobody in the country can i.d. them?

So much for your stats.

Edited March 1, 2011 by wiseguy

[geo]

BTW.

Why was the BSL introduced into the UK & various other places on the the globe at all?

Do you think it is a conspirasy without justification? That the people who have demanded it are just spiteful busy bodies?

Do you think the the stories of the dog being unsuitable to be in the general population is a vicious rumour started by all those who were mauled by one?

Or did various legislators suddenly declare ''Hey, we have some time to fill in, let's ban a dog breed, put some names in a hat & we will draw one out''

That BSL doesn't work doesn't alter the reasons it was introduced.

The road to failure is paved with good intentions.

BTW2

How could 12 APBTs appear in your stats when nobody in the country can i.d. them?

So much for your stats.

Firtsly re-read my post, i added an edit.

The stats were from 2009, government stats, not mine. Again I don't care for stats, it was for your benefit and to show that SBT's owners are bringing some of this on themselves. Fact. 145 was the number in case you forgot if I need to re-iterate this figure. I'll ask again, surely you don't think they're all pitties in disguise do you?

I fully understand the public and pollies reasoning that their is no place in society for dangerous dogs, I've said it before that social change needs to occur in order for us to move forward with this, along with sensible dog laws that register, educate owners and dogs etc..

We both agree that BSL doesn't work.

You can't blame the entire breed for the stupidity of poor owners and the poor lives many of those dogs would've lived.

If the SBT ever got added to the BSL list, I'm not going to blame you and your ilk, because clearly you do plenty to help the SBT. However I will blame all the bad owners, BYbers etc..

Just try to help yourself without shovelling more sh#t our way.

[Rysup]

Stupid owners are never going to go away. Bull breeds attract them. Even half the "show people" have no idea about how to live with a bull breed. They are not a Golden Retriever.

And ok ludicrous is an opinion, you got me LOL

[rep628]

Stupid owners are never going to go away. Bull breeds attract them. Even half the "show people" have no idea about how to live with a bull breed. They are not a Golden Retriever.

And ok ludicrous is an opinion, you got me LOL

It's okay Rysup, I share the same "ludicrous" opinion as you.. or wait, did you say ludicrous? I can't remember, we seem to be all quote happy in the post at the moment.

Anyways, I love my little 19inch, 25kg man. He's just oh so little and manageable and all sorts of proper (oooo, there's another opinion, hehehehe) Bully Breed Goodness. Speaking of Amstaffs, I had to have a creep online of your guys, your beautiful girl Paris (RIP), was a smokin' dog. Love that head. I noticed she's from Rebbull Kennels, they actually had one of my male's half sisters. No wonder I was drawn to her

Oh, Poodlefan, I was writing you a reply, and then I hit the "back" button last night, d'oh! If you know whom I could contact about ACT bite stats, that would be great to have a read of. ACT doesn't seem to be that far off the rest of the East Coast as far as dog-owning demographics, so it would be interesting to see how the rest of demographics pan out. It could be something to ultimately send off to the right people/politicians. I know they don't want to see examples of how dog laws are working in other countries/continents ("why should Canada be telling us what to do, they don't have the same issues as we do".. uh huh) They need to see media friendly angles they can work. Especially if they can make an Aussie spin on it - "In the ACT they have X law, & Y law, with no emphasis on breed, & only half the number of dog bites as NSW".

It's one thing I've learned about Australians (beware, painting with a broad brush) through personal experience & other tales from N. Americans down here - Aussies don't like it when someone comes Down Under and says "Do it X way" - even if that person has all the qualifications in the world to make such a statement - it comes off as "rude" and "brash", all the fine qualities of an American, hahahaha. Generally, people are much more receptive to "hey, my mate down the street did it this way, and it worked, maybe we should give it a try....?" And really you have every right to be guarded as a culture to take advice from the outside. Hell, this country was carved out by people who broke convention through a heck of a lot of hard work in some really insane circumstances.

In Ontario, Cheri Dinovo MP, hasn't stood up and said "I'm removing the pit bull ban from the the law!" You'd have every grandma & media-gullible numpty freaking out about how the government is putting them in harms way. What she has stated is she'd intending on revising the law to make it more comprehensive and holding more owners accountable I mean, she has been outspoken on BSL not working, but she's being savvy about getting it through the courts.

It's sneaky, but it's what's is going to remove nothing short of an animal version of genocide from that province. It's what needs to happen in Australia, because to have politician apologize for making up laws will never happen, no matter how bad the law was, they just need to tweek the legislation to make them look good. Look at good ol' Julia, if it wasn't for the fact that she was caught on tape about the carbon tax thing, she never would have admitted to making a change of policy - and even then she hasn't apologized - she's just simply said "oh, well, circumstances have changed". :D Hahaha, dodgey politicians, I do kinda love them for that stuff. Even murderers can't get away with things like that.

[wiseguy]

Even half the "show people" have no idea about how to live with a bull breed. They are not a Golden Retriever.

Agree, the half that neither own nor appreciate bull breeds.

Every breed has owners one wishes had have picked another hobby.

Do you know or know of the guy who flogs his Amstaff before he goes in the ring?

His''preparation''

A wonderful advertisement for the breed.

rep628,

You certainly have a long way to go before understanding the Australian pysche. Australians appreciate well given advice. Accept it with relish.

It's those that insist ramming their p.o.v down our throats that get short shift. Something for you to remember in the future.

Blowins acting like flawed drama critics reviewing a play they have missed by listening to chatter of those that didn't as they were leaving the theatre don't have any credibility. Something else you need to consider.

Your piece about the Ontario ''plan'' is exactly what I have been saying. In most places, Ontario being an exception btw, people power has been the catalyst to the introduction of BSLs. Those people need to won over. Lies, damn lies & statistics is not the way.

Honesty is.

Juliar is doomed. She won't see out the term as PM. Australians wont cosset blatent liars. Besides she wasn't elected, she was appointed by the real leader of the government, Bob Brown. Stupid people have the right to vote as well as owning bull breeds you see.

Edited March 1, 2011 by wiseguy

[geo]

rep628,

You certainly have a long way to go before understanding the Australian pysche. Australians appreciate well given advice. Accept it with relish.

It's those that insist ramming their p.o.v down our throats that get short shift. Something for you to remember in the future.

Blowins acting like flawed drama critics reviewing a play they have missed by listening to chatter of those that didn't as they were leaving the theatre don't have any credibility. Something else you need to consider.

Your piece about the Ontario ''plan'' is exactly what I have been saying. In most places, Ontario being an exception btw, people power has been the catalyst to the introduction of BSLs. Those people need to won over. Lies, damn lies & statistics is not the way.

Honesty is.

Juliar is doomed. She won't see out the term as PM. Australians wont cosset blatent liars. Besides she wasn't elected, she was appointed by the real leader of the government, Bob Brown. Stupid people have the right to vote as well as owning bull breeds you see.

Rep628,

As an Australian I appreciate your advice.

Wiseguy,

I'm not sure what constitutes a Blowin, maybe you have to be 3rd Generation or something?

As for missing a play, I certainly didn't.

As for your comment on lies and stats. I have not written one lie about what has happened but have questioned your p.o.v and quoted the actual words you have said, in the hope to try and achieve a common belief which I feel is necessary to start working towards a common goal.

Stats, how many times do I have to write that they don't mean anything to me. I quoted true statistics pulled from the QLD government under FOI act.

Yes the Onatrio situation is something that we need to look towards.

[wiseguy]

If stats don't mean anything, why do you apparently put so much credence in them?

You introduce them into the discussion whenever it suits you. That's hypocritical. (your favourite word).

A blowin is anyone who arrives after the event & then proceeds to give advice &/or opinions about a subject they don't have a complete knowledge of. Nothing to do with residency.

To understand the end one has to have knowledge of the begining.

My concerns haven't changed. Neither has my direction.

Misrepresentation is the issue that most disgusts me. Lies, damn lies & STATISTICS. Thank you Mr B.D.

It was blatant misrepresentation that prompted me to comment. ''Misrepresentation'' being a polite alternative btw.

Misrepresentation of breed i.ds. & the facts concerning the implementation of the BSL.

You are obviously on the opposite side of the fence where truth & honesty is treated with distain.

The end does not justify the needs.

btw,

Australians are a unique creatures.

One isn't guranteed this blessing with a piece of paper.

Being Australian & being an Australian citizen are not the same thing.

Edited March 1, 2011 by wiseguy

[bulldogz4eva]

hello,could someone please tell me the differences between these 2 breeds? i think theyre the same dog,i spoke to an all breeds judge and he said they are the same dog,can someone maybe an amstaff breeder tell me if theres a difference and why amstaffs are not banned but pitbulls are?

cheers

Depends on what you want to know about "differences"? Do you want to know which one(s) is legal, which one isn't? About differences in temperaments, or physically?

I think the bottom line is that it depends on what country you're from as far as the "differences" of the breed. In Australia, Amstaffs and APBT mustMustMUST (OMG) MUUUUUST be different dogs. In North America - it really doesn't matter (And look, I was involved in the Amstaff show world back in Canada - so I do have an idea) the reason for this? Well, from what I can tell, when the poop started to hit the fan a couple of things happened - and please, anyone who had their thumb on the pulse of it all at the time is free to correct me.

1) In Australia there is no large scale Kennel Club (like the UKC, or the ADBA) that could stand up for the right of APBT here in Aussieland. And I daresay the N. American based UKC and ADBA didn't support their registered breeders down here in lobbying against the laws,

2) In the ANKC, some Amstaff and Eng Staffy groups/breeders made a point to segregate them from the rest of the bully breed world. Why? Well, it's easier to pretend that you're not part of "those people" than to actually look at the bigger picture and realize what effects one affects us all. ReadySetGo said it best "deals were made". A great example of this is the most recent garbage that came from news.com.au/the Sydney Herald in an article titled "Dog Attacks on Children on the Rise".. Now the article stated the fact that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was NSW's #1 biting dog. And someone (I think he even title himself as a Staffy Bull Breeder) quipped on the comments that "well those stats are skewed because everyone who owns a Bully breed calls them "Staffys" and that a lot of those people who own "Staffys" are just registering them as that to keep them safe from the laws." And it's quite likely true, but that's the hole the ANKC people have dug for themselves - they've turned the internationally renowned Nanny Dog into a statistical nightmare, and that's such a shame.

Deals continue to this day - when Kylie Chivers challenged the GCCC for her dog and the Supreme Court declared Amstaffs = APBT, APBT = Amstaff. A lot of Amstaff people started to panic, next thing you know there's an announcement at the Brisbane Royal Show (I think, I probably have the locale wrong) that "‘(3) Also, the breed American pit bull terrier does not include a dog of the breed American Staffordshire terrier.’" (Part 3 Amendment of Animal Management (Cats and Dogs) Act 2008, Pgs 12 and 13) - It goes to show the deals are still on - to anyone from the outside, the fact that this announcement was made AT an ANKC dog show... well, you get the idea. It just smacks of the back door dealings happening.

Oooook, so now onto the physical differences. I think there's a heap of good threads in here but I think one internet pages sums it up quite nicely. From www.pbrc.net

" ”Pit bull” is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics known to the public as "pit bulls." When we use the term “pit bull” here, it should be understood to encompass American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers.

Remember: in most cases, we usually know little about the background of rescue dogs. Some may be gamebred APBTs (from fighting lines), some may be registered show dogs, some may be American Staffordshire Terriers, some may look like APBTs but might be mixed with other breeds, etc. Since there is no way to know for sure unless you have the pedigree of the dog, we recommend following the advice offered by PBRC for any pit-bull-type dog (most of our guidelines are, at any rate, simply basic rules of dog ownership). See PBRC's FAQ for more information. " http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html

And here's a link to FAQ - which does an absolutely brilliant job of describing how the lines are muddied in N. America (which ultimately has muddied the lines down here). And look, the ANKC and the AKC are sister organizations/kennel body's. So keep that in mind - http://www.pbrc.net/faq.html

Still with me? So as pbrc.net pointed out, some dogs are dual registered - here's an example, of a kennel with dogs I know personally:

http://www.yorkkennels.com/baronandfaithsale.html

So, whoever took those dogs on, would be able to import them legally into Australia, breed with them, show them and legally sell puppies to dance around an ANKC show ring - unless of course they produced a chocolate/red-nosed pup, because the ANKC doesn't allow chocolate or red nosed Amstaffs into the ring - the N. American AKC does it's just harder to Ch. title those dogs.. And then take the dogs back home and show them as APBT. Now, this doesn't mean ALL Amstaffs are registered ABPT, and it sure doesn't mean that ALL APBT's are registered Amstaffs. But as I was explaining to someone at a recent Delta Society workshop "It just depends on the lines. Some lines are more like brother and sister, others are more like cousins"... ultimately though, they are the same TYPE of dog and I'll go into to this more later. The bottom line - in the 1800 & 1900's they were the exact same dog, then kennel clubs got a hold of them... and we've molded them to suit our purposes, Amstaff groups didn't want dogs with more than 80% white? Well, they either went back to be registered as APBT or the Bull Terrier people got a hold of them, changed the shape of their heads and therefore created a new "breed". Weighed less than 15 kgs, and was a short little chunky butt (Even if his parents were pit fighters, the dog just happened to be a litter runt)? He'll fit into a SBT standard. And take note, in the 1970's the AKC re-opened its stud books to APBT's to widen up the gene pool... and yes, 30+ years (and god knows how many generations in that time) between then and now is a long time, but not that long when you look at the looooong and incredible history of these types of dogs. Heck, even Boston Terriers come from the same family... The immortal Stubby has been claimed by all of those breed fancier groups. Scroll down to halfway on the PBRC Breed Info page link I sent you (dog in goggles), what would most of us call that dog??? Hmmmm? It would be an interesting poll!

And up until earlier this year (or perhaps 2009?), you could proverbially walk your AKC pedigreed Amstaff into an ADBA/UKC office and be able to register him as an APBT. It was just the way it worked in N. America

Now you see where the lines are muddied. And it's SUCH a hotly contested debate. And honestly, I know Amstaff people in Canada that would swear to you until they were blue in the face that Amstaffs are NOT APBT - and they have the pedigree to back it up... unless of course one of their puppy buyers took the dog to an ADBA office and then registered the dog as an APBT... and I know APBT breeders that want "nothing to do with those watered-down Fabio's". But frankly, I don't think it really matters all that much. If my pedigreed retired show male ended up in a shelter in Los Angeles or Vancouver. They'd classify him as a "pit bull"... why? Well, the likelihood of me losing him with his pedigree papers tied around his neck is pretty un-freaking-likely. If he ever landed in a shelter down here - they'd slap a "pit bull" title on him as well, why? He has cropped ears, unlike some of the Amstaff lines I've seen here he's got a very N. American style head - long in the nose with a broad full muzzle, a pronounced stop... and you bet your bum he's to standard, his parents have won titles in Europe, Canada, U.S. and S. America. The shelter I worked at back in Canada called all dogs they took in of that type Amstaffs, why? When they advertised the dogs for adoption, it made them more appealing to families and less appealing to scumbags. And guess what, we do it down here in Australia as well, and I would know; I worked at an RPSCA in NSW. I've seen female come in CAR registered as APBT (owner didn't claim, so she legally had to be held for 14 days) - But guess what, no one bothered to inform council that she whelped a litter within a couple of days of coming in. 6 weeks later this RPSCA had 6 "Staffy crosses" up for adoption. I've seen a 22 point check list done on a dog (such a farce, I know)... a shelter favourite. He's now "an Amstaff".

This dog, http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/202_32923.jpg?30626 is currently up for adoption in New York as an APBT/Amstaff, and I'd put really good money that a shelter down here would call her Staffy X. Go back to the website, www.pbrc.net and look at a chunk of the dogs available for adoption, how many of them would be called "Staffy" or "Staffy X's" down here? How many of them would you see walking down the street? I know I've seen lots of them.

http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/4922_18744.jpg?73088 - Described as a "pit bull mix"... he is 80+ lbs (~37 kgs) after all

http://www.respect-a-bull.com/adoptabledogs.htm - All such brilliant dogs, look at the puppies... what would they have been called down here? Oh and what about "Buster"? And god, the amount of times I've seen "Blue" down here in vet clinics I work at. And for some stupid reason, they're getting so freakishly popular.

Or go to Yagoona's Adopt-A-Pet webpage, there's a STUNNING "Alaskan Malamute X Bullmastiff", among many, many other American Staffy X's.. Which good on the RSPCA for calling them Amstaff, I like how they're using the name. Not letting the power only be used by a certain group of people. Even in Brisbane/QLD the RSPCA is starting to use the term Amstaffs for some of their adoptable dogs (including a handsome cream coloured male *gasp!*)... but wait, the RPSCA isn't an ANKC approved body... how can they be Amstaff?!?!?!?! (Please note the sarcasm in that)

To quote Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Though honestly, after spending time in Australia, I'm half tempted to change the word "rose" to "flaming pile of poo” and sweet into... well, I think you get the idea. The government, kennels clubs, ET all honestly thought that if you changed a name, all the problems with the name would go away. And this is where the problem really is. It hasn't changed the problems. Fatal dog attacks have not gone away, more bites than ever are being reported each year that passes, you have Staffordshire Bull Terriers leading the bite statistics. I watched a proper Eng Staffy brought into the RSPCA to be surrendered - why? At the dog beach earlier that day he got into a dog fight. He grabbed, held and shook the other dog. Was he an APBT? My aforementioned male pedigreed Amstaff does the same thing if he gets into a fight - does that automatically make him an American Pit Bull Terrier? At the Perth Royal Show, I heard some of the male handlers talk about how even though it wasn't appropriate, they loved see how one of the males got on top of the carrier of another Amstaff and the two dogs had a snarf-fest, only stopping because the people got in there and intervened.. Something about "nice to see they still have their original purpose in them". My female rescue, Autumn spent the first four years of her life in doggie daycare, and is a social dream... does that make her an Amstaff, or because she does the Staffy frog sprawl & crawl when you scratch her butt and chortles, an Eng Staffy? But wait, I know the kennel her mom came from... they don't have Eng Staffys. Because you keep calling them "Staffys" Australia has forgotten one of the most important part of the dogs' name (and it's in ALL the breeds, APBT, SBT, AST) - Terrier. They are a large Terrier, and all need to be supervised, trained, and managed appropriately. For Christssake, most people can't manage the 5 kg Jack Russell Terrier, why does anyone think it's easier to handle a 15 or even 30 kg Terrier?

And then there's also the fact that in N. America, many of the dog fight busts are churning out... guess what? These funny little gremlins that could only be called Staffordshire Bull Terriers and crosses there of. The ground breaking case of Michael Vick showed us that even AKC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier are landing in the ring. Why? Well again, it could be they're all the same type of dog. But I've heard/seen (and tend to believe) that it has more to to do with size. Many APBT and some Amstaffs are becoming VERY large (especially on the West Coast, and yes, within the standard) - they're breeding back to the originals to produce an "ideal" dog (no more than about 40 lbs.. or ~17 kgs). I love showing this pic http://www.badrap.org/rescue/index.html to Aussies; it makes their heads spin. All dogs in that large picture were taken from the Michael Vick bust - but do you know how many times I've heard "but, that look like X..."

I hope that's given you perspective, or an idea of just how messed up it is and I apologize I went so long. It really honestly depends on the breeder, and how well that person knows his line and his lines history. But your all breeds judge was vaguely right, they are the same dog (or maybe more specifically, type.. or hell, it's just as likely one is a subset of the other – think Dachshund and Wire-Haired Dachshund), some just have more exclusive invitations to certain events than others. And I can say as a Purebred, Pedigreed Amstaff owner that I feel like the person with the designer dress who has an “in” to the party because my best friend is boinking the host... Meanwhile my twin sister feels left out because she doesn’t have that same best friend or fancy dress... and I know that feeling too because I own a rescued Amstaff/Bully Breed/godknowswhat . But as “twin sisters” our characteristics, mannerisms and looks are so much that same that anyone could tell that we’re from the same family.

Nice post.Spot on.

[bulldogz4eva]

Hi guys i am really sorry if i have or am about to repeat what you have just typed, i had a small brief read of the top section but this happened the other day and was wondering can you help?

i do obedience and don't own solid strong dogs, but i was talking to one of the men behind the office counters and another man and his partner approached and were registering to become a member on the form one question asks "BREED" i knew that they had a amstaff, blue n white they told me as she is just devine and i have seen them many times before.

Well anyway back to the point the man behind the counter took their word for that she is a amstaff not a APBT as he himself could not tell the difference (without testing) and she was friendly but "club rules" states no restricted or dangerous dogs allowed".

I dont want to see people pushed away becasue of the deeds of other dogs do that stop this beauty becoming a member and he didnt want to go against the legal system if that dog had been restricted breed but my question is

is there any way you can determine the distinct difference between and american staff and a american P.B.T

not character and personality, but size, shape, colour, face shape, height???

again sorry for reposting

Without a long lengthy explanation.There are no blue pitbulls in this country.There are in the US but thats another story in itself.There are blue amstaffs and unpapered dogs and dogs that may have been crossed but no 'purebred' blue pits.

[bulldogz4eva]

APBT do not have a breed standard as they are not a recognised breed, so the answer is no.It is very easy with a google to find the stahdard for an american staffy

Actually, they do. Though because the kennel clubs that hold the standards don't operate in full here. The Kennel Clubs that recognize the APBT and hold a standard for the breed are the United Kennel Club (UKC) & the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA). If you go to www.google.ca (not www.google."com" - that's a whole other post) and look it up, you should be able to find each respective kennel club and their standards for the dogs

The APBT has never, ever been recognised as a pure breed by the AKC. Not even way back when.

This rebuff of the ''breed'' was the catalyst for C.C.Bennet to raise the U.K.C. Specifically to register his own dog. Bennets Ring.

The U.K.C is a privately owned commercial enterprise. & a very profitable one at that.

No dog, solely registered with the U.K.C, is recognised as a pure breed by any affiliated pure breed registery in world.

The major difference between the American Staffordshire Terrier & the American Pitbull Terrier, besides the name, is one has been faithfully bred to a registered standard, the other to an opinion.

One is a genuine APBT, the other isn't.

However, the U.K.C now no longer recognises AKC registered AST's as APBT's. Bit of payback there me thinks.

So people holding cc registered papers for their A.S.T can now feel a little more secure for the future of their breed.

APBT owners? your struggle still has way to go.

Thanks for the history lesson Dougie blah blah blah blah blah

[bulldogz4eva]

Yeah no blue and white pits in Aus, and no rednose amstaffs here either... or are there, there's rednose amstaffs in the states.

I have seen red nose amstaffs here.Sold off as pet quality as they are non standard.

[bulldogz4eva]

Yeah no blue and white pits in Aus, and no rednose amstaffs here either... or are there, there's rednose amstaffs in the states.

Depends on your point of view &/or your interpretion/knowledge, of the breed(s) history.

Those who consider the breeds to be one & the same would dispute there are no pure bred blue & white ''APBT''s in Australia (see the magazine cover posted above )

It would be distinct possiblity that the only red nose ASTs in the U.S.A would only be found in the areas where the APBT was banned.

Interchangeable breeds. Depending on the situation. Very conveniment.

Just playing devils advocate you understand.

Blah blah blah blah blah

[bulldogz4eva]

Depending what part of the country they come from appears to determine the ''type''

That is not to say they aren't pure breeds, it does say they are bred to differeing opinions though.

You only have to look at AST breeders pages to see that they're also breeding to their own opinions and what they take from the standard.

Why would anyone want to get into dog breeding only to breed to a standard that they must conform to, it's against human nature not to try and improve something (it can still fit the standards), even judges vary their opinions on their take of the breed standards.

I've lost count of how many people are breeding for "solid muscle" "big bone mass" "rare blue", these people are registered breeders flaunting their wares as they think this is what people want to buy and this is the direction they feel the breed should go... these breeders aren't 20 year plus veterans they've got their rego and prefix and that's it.

If you know what you're looking for you can spot the decent breeders a mile away, usually by their dogs, but sadly many owners of the AST nowadays don't have the feintest idea.

LMAO.Expect to be flamed coz the truth hurts.

[bulldogz4eva]

No, AST's are not my breed of choice.

But, I would hope no well bred, bred to the standard Am Staff would have ''bird of prey'' eyes. They are a highly undesirable, previously called a disqualfying, fault.

I would imagine it would be the same case with well bred APBTs.

Incorrect, the only faults In regards to eye color In a well bred APBT are both eyes not matching In color and blue eyes, Light eyes In Am Staffs however yes Is a fault

That's interesting.

Although it is does seem unusual to accept any colour except blue. Why bother. One in all in. And why not blue eyes for a blue dog?. Makes more sense than yellow. Doesn't it?

Without predujice, the UKC standard really is a pakapoo ticket for this breed in any case.

How can a genuine pure breed defining standard have a weight differential ranging from 35 to 60 pounds for the same breed & expected to be taken seriously?

But wait, there's more, dogs that exceed that maximum are not to be penalised unless they are exceptionally heavily built or excessively rangy. So there is really no limit.

Any amount of different breeds could be fitted under that description. (Maybe they should take a leaf from the Poodle breed & have miniatures, toys & standards )

Could this possibly be the reason the breed isn't considered to be a pure breed by other pure breed registries?

It's certainly is a problem for other bull breeds have to contend with when dubious breed identications come to the fore.

From smaller than a Staffordshire Bull Terrier to bigger than a Bull Mastiff, yet all the same breed?

That really is ridiculous.

Only becuase the show crowd want everything to fit inside their neat little box.

[bulldogz4eva]

Are you saying there are two (two ?) seperate & independent APBT registries in the USA? And they don't agree on what the dog actually looks like?

Are you also suggesting the UKC standard isn't the true breed description? Remembering the UKC is the second biggest registery in the USA & was founded specifically to give APBT a registry when the AKC didn't then, & still doesn't, consider the APBT answered the criteria required to accepted onto their register as a genuine, bona fide, pure breed.

And you say the ADBA doesn't even have a written description? their members just ''know'' how the breed should look. A telepathic standard. ,Wow how so 21st century is that?

And how so very very interesting.

What you are saying though certainly seems to vindicate the AKC stance, don't you agree?

I mean to say, if the breed enthusiasts can't agree how the breed looks, how could anyone possibly write a definitive standard for it to be allowed onto a genuine pure breed registery.?

Also, it is puzzling that the UKC, which claims to be a pure breed registery, will register just about any breed, regardless of how obscure it may be, except the American Staffordshire Terrier. Don't you find that extraordinary?

Twist the words to suit yourself you were always pretty good at it.

Edited March 2, 2011 by bulldogz4eva

[bulldogz4eva]

They will register the dogs but they will call them APBT.

So Wiseguy if you firmly believe that the AST is a pure bred pitbull, so why not rename all the AST's APBT in the name of originality etc..?

If you're trying to convert APBT people into believing their chosen dogs are not pure bred you're going to have a hard task. No matter how right you think you are, i think a dog that has been bred under the ADBA standards since 1909 with many many years of lineage and proof of parentage is pure enough for me.

If you believe that somehow that dog isn't pure bred because the AKC say's so, your head must be (to be polite) stuck in the sand.

You obviously either don't read all the posts or you are very selective about which bits you choose to comment on. Actually that is patently obvious.

I have said there is no doubt there are pure bred APBTs, there is no denying that, the problem being is that different regions have different opinions about what the ''true'' APBT is & what it looks like. Too much variety to be taken seriously as all being ''pure breeds'' of the same breed. Even you have made mention of the anomalies in the ''breed''.

Genuine, ethically bred, registered pure breeds are easily recognisable regardless of what COUNTRY they are bred in. APBTs vary from city to city, suburb to suburb depending on the opinion of the people who are breeding them.

And that, my man, is why they were not, & more than likely never will be, recognised as a bona fide pure breed by any legitmate pure breed registry on this earth. Or any other earth for that matter.

And please don't insult my intelligence by trotting out the usual petulant nonsense about ''we don't care'', ''ours are performance registers'' et al, etc, etc, waffle, waffle.

Any genuine, ethical breeder of recognised, registered pure breeds loves to have their ''work'' displayed at sanctioned championship shows, & especially if they can qualify for prestigious events such as westminister or crufts, the holy grails of the pure breed world & genuine, ethical APBT breeders would be no different if given the chance. They would jump at it if it was offered to them

BTW, about 6-8 (?) years ago, the top agility dog in the USA, as in numero uno, was an AKC registered SBT bitch. A little white girl, a dead ringer for my old girl reggie in fact, God rest her soul

It would be an interesting if the APBTs were given the chance at AKC registration though.

If all the factions could agree on an acceptable standard & then if they passed the required criterium , & were admitted on the AKC pure breed register, how many so called APBTs of today would be looking for a new identity tomorrow do you think?

At last you have changed your tune and admitted that there are purebred APBT's.How long has it taken you to admit this to yourself?I readily admit there are too many out of standard dogs and this is the problem in the US.A registery is only as good as its members and if certain people have muddued the waters and registered dogs that have other blood in them and it is quite obvious this has taken place what are they to do without evidence.If it was me and I owned the registry I would take action and slash and burn(deregister).Becuase the fact of the matter remains this is the main problem and why the pitbull has gone from the nanny dog to the most hated killing machine known to man.Simple fact is the majority of attacks in that country are by unregistered or out of standard large 'pitbulls' bred for a differnt purpose.They are not the norm but fast becoming it by people that dont have a clue.This is why I have stated for a long time by people who quote stas for America they have no bearing on this country as they are not the same dogs.hard for some people to understand I know.

Breeders and owners as a whole have to stand up and tell the registry we will no lnger accept that you register these dogs or we will take our business elsewhere or start our own registry.Easier said than done I know. As far as AKC registration we will never know will we so its ok to theorise but I think you would get a surprise just how many would becuase you wouldnt know.

[bulldogz4eva]

quote name='wiseguy' date='27th Feb 2011 - 10:37 AM' post='5173404']

There are some great amstaff breeders on this site, keeping them true to type and to standard, but you can't deny the fact that there is a growing trend that bigger is better and it's ruining the breed from within your precious registry, and what is the AKNC doing about it? hmmmmm? ponder that for me?

[

Absolutely, there are plenty of ''great'' Amstaff breeders, as there are of every other recognised, registered pure breeds.

These are the breeders I carefully & deliberately designate as ''ETHICAL" breeders.

Ethical breeders are the future of the pure breed dog.

Also, if you actually took the time to aquaint yourself with the AST standard you would know there is no height or weight stipulation other than 18''-19'' being preferable, weight is a proportional to height, & this, when applied to the entire breed description paints a word picture an athletic, agile dog, approx 18''-19'' to the withers.

Certainly more definative than 35lb-60lb+, height what ever, dog not to be to heavy or to rangy. what ever that is?

I haven't ever seen any ASTs that look as you have described Them.

We obviously move in different circles, I really only ever see the ethically bred types, whose owners are proud enough to exhibit them before their peers while having them judged against a bona fide standard.

Handsome dogs.

They could probably even accomplish a reasonable weight pull if their owners were so inclined.

Good breeding doesn't automatically disqualify a dog from performance, as you seem to image. It would enhance it if anything.

BTW, another little aside foryou to ponder.

There is a member of a bull breed specific site that claims his AKC registered STB is the champion weight pull dog. Claims it outpulls the pitties. I am skeptical, but that is his claimIt isn't ''my'' registry either, however, I am a registered breeder, & all my dogs are on ''our'' internationally accredited registry, as are any I produce, in accordance with our CoE, which I do take very seriously

You are missing the point that Geo made.Your own registry that you hold in such high esteem is registering dogs that are way outside the standard.So are they any better than any other registry that also does the same?

Edited March 2, 2011 by bulldogz4eva

[bulldogz4eva]

I haven't been a member long enough to read anything that was ''all over the forum''.

I did read a recent post which indicated the Qld government was formulating new legislation relating to dog laws & the poster was very apprehensive as to the content. Really concerned in fact.

That you are blaming the ANKC for being compliant with the Qld government in this tragedy is typical of the deceipt & misinformation I deplore. You are typical of the genre. Dodge all responsibility, blame anyone & everyone. Doesn't matter who. Shift the blame at any cost.

That really is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That no one can positively identify a ''pitbull'' would only seem to demonstrate they couldn't possibly be pure breeds.

Seems strange these same people can ''positively'' i.d. a Staffordshire Bull Terrier in the mix though. Or that one isn't a ''pitbull'' but an Amstaff. How would they know that if they don't know what a pitbull looks like in the first place. Deary, deary me. Oh what a tangled web we weave.......

It would appear the Chivers judgement hasn't been appealed or overturned (?) Which would mean it is still on the books, a precedent. Just festering away. Waiting, waiting.

I would hope the GCCC is truly showing common sense & applying deed not breed to their apparently new found M.O. & not biding their time for a new legislation to be gazetted.

I also hope the ''we don't if it's a pitbull'' owners don't relax & let themselves be compromised by thinking all is forgiven.

Heres a plan.

If there isn't anyone who can identfy pitbulls, they could at least employ ACOs who can identify SBTs & ASTs.

Because if they can genuinely i.d. those breeds, they can also exonerate them.

Remembering of course that Xbreeds aren't pure breeds & should not be identified as such.

So, by the process of elimination.....

I have always advocated proper 'ID' and if that was the case the stas would read much diferently as any cross breed is called pitbull when in fact they are just mongrel crossbreeds.

[bulldogz4eva]

Proves they are the same breed. Amen.

Have i said anything to the contrary? I did ask you to read rep628's earlier post on this, to which i agree.

Funny that as mentioned by rep628 working GSD's in Germany are the only GSD's worth breeding, same breed as their show counterparts but very different. Though i do believe that many AST's (AKNC) would be more than capable of earning working dog titles, not just agility.

It's funny cause i thought you were of the opinion that the AST is it's own breed, so far removed from the APBT that it should be recognised as it's own breed and not subject to BSL, (which it shouldn't be, same as the APBT shouldn't). yet you call it the true APBT (how can it be if it hasn't been worked for 75 years)

In that case.. should anyone calling their dog true APBT only have the right to do so if they're game bred fighting dogs from old fighting blood lines? which would mean that there are very few about and that all of our APBT's are in fact AST's ?as they've been bred for family pets, show dogs, shutzhund etc..

Yet you flamed Kylie Chivers for bringing the good name of the AST down by saying it was the same breed as APBT, yet you believe her!! and are saying so publicly therefore further denigrating the AST in your own words!

pot this is kettle, are you black? why no sir i'm a very very dark shade of grey mixed with black that in the eyes of many i look completely black but i don't believe it..

The portions of rep628s posts that I am cognisant with are not a proper representation of the truth. IMO.

Similarly, with your continued distortions of what I have posted, I can only suspect they are merely further nefarious attempts to distort the truth for some sort of a illconceived agenda that I can't fathom?

Çhivers case?, better if read what was actually said. Which has scant resemblance to what you have just claimed.

Also I would much prefer if you are to quote me at all, at least have the good grace to quote in the entirety &/or in context. Your dishonesty is shameful.

Until you embrace facts rather than fallacy you will remain part of the problem, not the solution.

If the ANKC registered GSDs are so bad as to be discounted as working dogs I wonder why the Police & rescue organisations only accept ANKC registered GSD puppies from ANKC member breeders?

How would you ever get the opinion I thought the AST & APBT were seperate breeds? Just another example of your duplicity.

You should try honesty for a change, it doesn't hurt.

I can attest to that.

You are the one that needs to embrace the truth and it just might set you free,becuase at the moment you are the one who is in denial.

As fro the police only accepting registered purebred GSD also not fact.The WAPOL have a GSD rottie cross as a service dog so it obviously ticked all the boxes.

[bulldogz4eva]

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically).

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own?

I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country.

I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old.

I dont know that was the case.Quoting supplied statistics to me was only to prove the hypocrisy not to deflect the blame.Claiming others are more dangerous isnt the right way I agree and maybe I have been guilty of it however facts are facts and theirs didnt stack up.it was an agenda that was never going to be won becuase of it.If it becomes an issue for governemnt they will make that issue go away but whatever they deem necessary to deceive the public.that is government the world over.