Raw Feeding And Rotty Poop

[annette.tas]

Just a warning, this post is going to talk about poop - a lot and in great detail! It will also likely be long.

I have recently (6 weeks ago) changed my adult male rotts diet. He had been on a diet of Pedigree Dry Food (yes, I know, I hate me too), with assorted 'table scraps' like raw and cooked veg, eggs & egg shell and some fresh meat, and the occasional naughty piece of wholegrain toast, with vegemite thankyou very much - but less than 10% of his overall daily intake.

To maintain weight on this diet, he was eating a large saucepan FULL or pedigree a day, and doing about 4 human sized poos DAILY to go with it - first one or two were well formed and large, but soft in texture, then the following one very loose, and the third basically colored liquid with some solid matter. His anal glands were swollen and sore, and I was having to evacuate them regularly. Time to stop being lazy - I did some initial research and switched him to meat.

I had tried feeding him RMB's in addition to his dry 'diet' in the past, which resulted in a lot of bone-filled vomit. Not cool. He now gets his frames frozen, and grinds down every last bit of them - no more puke!

I initially switched him to raw meat and chicken frames only - 2 - 3 frames per week, the rest mostly chunky horse meat, some beef and even less mutton (I read somewhere that horse is much lower in fat than beef or mutton - similar to roo?). His coat improved within a couple of weeks, his breath improved, and he stopped nibbling his coat. He also stopped drinking as much - down by about half. His stools on the other hand didn't improve as I had hoped. Down to one very small solid stool a day (about cat-sized), but it would come out with a lot of liquid also. He ate this meat-only diet for about 3 weeks.

More research. Over the course of a week, he now eats the following:

2 Kilograms of Diced Horse Meat - minimal fat

1 Kilogram of Beef and Mutton - can be a little fatty

400 grams organs - Kidney, Heart, Liver (Edited to add Organs)

300 grams crushed mixed veg & greens: pumpkin, carrot, zucchini, parsley, mint, red capsicum

3 eggs (with shells, plus a couple extra shells)

2 cans Sardines (in Olive Oil)

3 Chicken Frames

1/4 Cup Oats

5-6 4x2 Blocks (Farrals or other brand) - this was a recent addition in the last 10 days

On the new 'recipe' above, his coat improved further, he has more energy, but he still has liquidy stools after his first solid one for the day (which is also accompanied by slop). They firmed up a little more after the addition of the 4x2's.

Am I doing something wrong for his stools to still be this way? Am I missing something obvious? Help me gurus!!

Edited October 21, 2010 by annette.tas

[Nekhbet]

sounds like his digestion is still getting used to the diet. Remember a dog on highly processed low protein diets have a higher stomach pH then those on raw - ie less acid. Their digestion is so not used to having to work it tends to upset itself more easily. His body is also now getting used to a more liqued form of food as well compared to the dry food. It's like putting yourself onto a totally raw health freak diet after years of eating junk food it takes a while to adjust.

Give him a couple of smaller meals per day if you are only feeding one, and add some yoghurt or inner health plus to his meals as well. You will find in time he can be weaned off the 4x2s as he adjusts.

[annette.tas]

Hi Nekhbet,

Thanks I'd totally forgotten about active cultures/probiotics in my panic - LOL The twice a day tip is also a good one - I'll start that today.

Other critiques on his current diet overall are more than welcome - I'm always open to change.

[Stolzseinrotts]

Nekbet has given you good advice, feed twice a day and try the Inner Health plus for a good 30 days or better still over 60 days. You may find that the oats are giving the stool a more liquid form. My older boy cannot tolerate a lot of oats in his diet, when he does get it he does have loose motions. Try barley in place of the oats.

I would up the bone content in the diet as well, the more bone content the firmer the stools. The diet you are using is Ok but it needs to have more raw meaty bones in it for my liking. Try feeding chicken mince that is minced chicken frames, it has the bone content and the dogs love it. Also I would reduce the horse meat, it can go through them. Try beef brisket bones as well, a nice soft type bone with a good amount of meat and fat on them.

It basically will be a bit of trial and error until you find the right blend so to speak, but as suggested up the content of raw meaty bones.

They poo as they eat; we feed offal the stools are and can be loose, we feed chicken frames and or brisket bones the stools are firm. Too much vegetable material will make for loose stools etc.

I hope that helps a bit.

[annette.tas]

Hi Stolzseinrotts!

I actually added the oats to help bulk out the meat (like dry food), and for the extra nutrients. I will cut them out in the next mix and try barley instead (have that too! lol). Also, I was using rolled oats, if that makes a difference.

I agree on the RMB front, but as I mentioned earlier have had a lot of trouble in the past with him throwing up bone. Bits of bone, finely ground bits, the full spectrum. Will try adding more minced chicken frames (can only get it minced finely enough from one supplier - same bone problem as whole bones otherwise). On a side note, will this pass also as he gets used to eating a more natural diet? Or am I bound to be cleaning up Rotty spew forever??!!!

Agree on the trial and error, and I had a feeling I should be feeding more bone - but other than that, yay!

Thanks again for all your advice

[spottychick]

What are 4x2 farrals??

Have you had a look at something like Phuds or VANs (Vets all natural) Complete Mix which you can add to the meat? They contain supplements that might help him, including oats, barley and other good things. My dogs have been fed VANs, mince meat of various kinds and RMBS and always have very healthy solid poos We're just trying out Phuds now to see if it's as good.

I also make my keffir - which is like yoghurt on speed and feed it to the dogs and myself

[Nekhbet]

the inability to digest bones again comes from his previous diet and stomach pH being too high so the body rejects them. If you keep slowly introducing minced carcasses you will find his tolerance should go up, but it will be a slow process. My dogs have always eaten raw meaty bones even if they have dry food, and trust me a whole pig head dissapears including the bones, all they leave is the teeth.

[annette.tas]

Last post for me today. Spent an hour at the river with the doggies, then another two hours watching them wear themselves out more at a friends house!

What are 4x2 farrals??

They are a hard baked biscuit, containing Wholegrain cereal and cereal by-products, meat and meat by-products (derived from beef and/or lamb

and/or chicken), tallow, dicalcium phosphate, garlic powder, salt, natural flavouring, emulsifier, natural colour, preservatives and antioxidants. Link

They're also known as 'Greyhound Blocks', and are available from a couple of different companys, but originally produced by 'Farrels'. Sorry for the confusion!

Not ideal, but they don't contain corn (BIG no-no with my Rott), and are free from artificial rubbish. As Nekhbet suggested, I had planned to wean him off these as his big hairy body adjusts to the new diet.

Have you had a look at something like Phuds or VANs (Vets all natural) Complete Mix

I'd considered this, as one of my cats grew up on VAN. Where I work also sells the Complete Mix (dry form) and Premium Choice (pre-soaked and mixed with roo meat & tripe - Mmmm!). I decided to go the homemade raw and natural route for a few reasons, which I will share with the class!

Firstly, I didn't want to take him off one lot of food with loads of stuff in it he doesn't really need - yes, VAN is fantastic, but it still contains a lot of stuff I'd rather not be feeding my dog.

Secondly, Why buy it when I can be more hands-on! I love the ritual of getting his fresh meat, crushing the veg, mixing it up and bagging it.

Thirdly, cost. Why buy it when I can provide the same nutrients with a varied, healthy diet?

I'm not saying that Phuds and VAN aren't great products - I know a lot of people who use them and have had wonderful success, they're just not for me.

the inability to digest bones again comes from his previous diet and stomach pH being too high so the body rejects them

Good. I was running with that theory, but it's nice to have it backed up. Oh, and shame on your dogs for leaving the teeth!

[JRzipper]

I'm hard core raw too and have been feedig this way for more than a decade. The first thing I always try if the dog's stools are abnormal is pumpkin. Here's a little piece that I just wrote for our club newsletter:

Pumpkin is one of the mystery foods of the dog world, some say it is for constipation and others say it is for diarrhoea, but the surprising fact is that pumpkin can and does relieve both symptoms.

By adding a few tablespoons of pureed or pulped pumpkin to your dog's food the symptoms can often be alleviated in a few hours. Pumpkin is both a good source of fibre and has a high water content that will help either the constipation or the diarrhoea. The water will hydrate the intestines to relieve constipation and the fibre will absorb excess water in diarrhoea that is produced by an agitated colon. But be aware that any diarrhoea or constipation lasting more than 24-36 hours may have a serious underlying cause and requires vet care.

Pumpkin can be prepared by cooking and mashing/pureeing, or by juicing and then recombining the juice and pumpkin pulp to retain all the vitamins

JR

[spottychick]

I'd considered this, as one of my cats grew up on VAN. Where I work also sells the Complete Mix (dry form) and Premium Choice (pre-soaked and mixed with roo meat & tripe - Mmmm!). I decided to go the homemade raw and natural route for a few reasons, which I will share with the class!

Firstly, I didn't want to take him off one lot of food with loads of stuff in it he doesn't really need - yes, VAN is fantastic, but it still contains a lot of stuff I'd rather not be feeding my dog.

Secondly, Why buy it when I can be more hands-on! I love the ritual of getting his fresh meat, crushing the veg, mixing it up and bagging it.

Thirdly, cost. Why buy it when I can provide the same nutrients with a varied, healthy diet?

I'm not saying that Phuds and VAN aren't great products - I know a lot of people who use them and have had wonderful success, they're just not for me.

the inability to digest bones again comes from his previous diet and stomach pH being too high so the body rejects them

Good. I was running with that theory, but it's nice to have it backed up. Oh, and shame on your dogs for leaving the teeth!

Ok LOL IT was just a thought.

Although I do know what you mean - I mix up fresh meat, the VAN/PHUDS mix, plus pulped veggies etc and bag it myself anyway - it's kinda fun. I also have to make a separate lot of stuff for Tango who can't eat a lot of "normal" dog stuff so I have a whole 'nother ritual for his dinners involving the pressure cooker!

I noticed youre another taswegian!! Yay us!

I hope you don't work where I used to buy my VAN from in Launceston ........

[Crisovar]

I'm hard core raw too and have been feedig this way for more than a decade. The first thing I always try if the dog's stools are abnormal is pumpkin. Here's a little piece that I just wrote for our club newsletter:

Pumpkin is one of the mystery foods of the dog world, some say it is for constipation and others say it is for diarrhoea, but the surprising fact is that pumpkin can and does relieve both symptoms.

By adding a few tablespoons of pureed or pulped pumpkin to your dog's food the symptoms can often be alleviated in a few hours. Pumpkin is both a good source of fibre and has a high water content that will help either the constipation or the diarrhoea. The water will hydrate the intestines to relieve constipation and the fibre will absorb excess water in diarrhoea that is produced by an agitated colon. But be aware that any diarrhoea or constipation lasting more than 24-36 hours may have a serious underlying cause and requires vet care.

Pumpkin can be prepared by cooking and mashing/pureeing, or by juicing and then recombining the juice and pumpkin pulp to retain all the vitamins

JR

I was going to suggest pumpkin for the OP to try. Big fans of steamed or boiled mashed pumpkin for the dogs here.

The dogs all love their pumpkin

[annette.tas]

Well, he does get pulverised pumpkin in his meat mix as is, perhaps I'll try giving him a bit more (on top of the other stuff)? Cooked you say?

I've also read (and been told) that pumpkin is good for discouraging corophagia? (wow, half way through my coffee, so I bet I spelled that wrong!) Seems to have helped stop my Staffy helping herself from the 'Rotty Soft Serve Machine'

This weeks mix, I'm cutting the horse meat right back, and adding more minced frames (and an extra whole one, cos he loves them!). Also switching rolled oats for soaked barley, and adding more pumpkin. Will leave the rest as-is for now so I don't get his colon (? LOL) too confused!

Great feedback folks!

[t-time]

Diet sounds great but it also sounds like you are lacking fibre - like extra bone (although I understand there has been an issue previously) but do try and build it up as Nekbet suggested plus the pumpkin (steamed and mashed will do wonders for the poo!

More fibre and solids for this diet will discourage liquidy poop.

[dancinbcs]

I would change the sardines to those in spring water rather than oil because the fish already contain oil. Also watch how much liver he is getting in the mix. Too much can cause vitamin A poisoning. Small regular amounts are ok but no more than about 50gms per day.

[Red Fox]

Psyllium husk can help too. Soak around 2 level teaspoons in a third of a cup of warm water and add it to his meal each night. I find it helps runny poos kind of bulk up 'stick' together and also helps with constipation