Car Lunging

[Max#1]

I have a six month old puppy who's recently been desexed (last Friday in fact).

On Monday we took him for a walk and on the way home he started lunging at cars that were driving past and barking. On Tuesday same. Today he did it the whole walk, not just on the way home.

The car can be coming from either direction, he gets alert, lunges to the end of the lead and has a few woofs. He particularly gets 'excited' by motobikes - or deeply revving engine sounds (can you tell I'm a car person? Not!).

First of all, does anyone have any advice for preventing this behaviour? Should I be doing something at that moment? I've tried calling him as a car is coming and trying to hold his attention til it goes past. I've tried waiting til he gets to the end of the lead mid-lunge and giving him a sharp pull back, and at one point I actually picked him up and carried him (all 15.1 kg) the rest of the way home. I'm a bit perplexed.

I was wondering if its because our normal routine has changed and he's not getting stimulated enough? Normally we walk to a park, he gets a free run with some well-known dogs, and then we walk home. Now while he's healing he gets no off-lead time at all, and I've slowed down our walk and made it shorter (helped in part by the fact that I have a bit of a sore foot myself).

Any advice?

[poodlefan]

Before I give any - what sort of collar is he wearing?

Sounds a lot like you've got a prey driven dog who's lacking in stimulation - the cars are now providing it. How long till the stitches come out.

[Max#1]

A normal collar - it has a metal clip the lead goes into. I've never walked him on a harness - and he's had the same collar since a puppy.

That's what I'm afraid of. Stitches come out in five days. Thank goodness.

[Max#1]

Hang on a sec - what do you mean by prey-driven?

I've heard of herding instinct...

[poodlefan]

Hang on a sec - what do you mean by prey-driven?

I've heard of herding instinct...

Herding instinct is commonly considered to be modified prey drive.

Edited October 20, 2010 by poodlefan

[Max#1]

Okay, well that's a relief.

We've started flyball training to help him use and enjoy some of the prey drive/herding instinct/ball loving energy. Though obviously no training this week. It is fantastic though - a big emphasis on socialization and distraction-proof recall at this stage - we both enjoy it.

Its a bit of a thing to try and avoid though - when walking down the street isn't an option. Is there somehow I can let him know this is a not good behaviour?

[bumpties]

I had a similar issue with my boy a few months back - he started lunging at every second car and making it very difficult to take him for walks.

We started off sitting by the road, and for every car that was coming our way, he gets a treat. Once you establish some positive association, only treat for cars that he doesn't lung at.

Me been a first time dog owner, didn't really know any better, so it took us a few weeks to get it under control, but our walks are manageable now, he gets fed on our walks. He now will signal me by making eye contact if there is a car that will make him 'tick', and I reward him whilst the car is driving pass. On the rare occasional, I see a loud truck coming (that I know he will lung at it) I will pull out a high value reward and put it in front of him and make him chose - can't eat and bark at the same time. And if it fails, I take away the reward and ignore him for a few moments before resuming our walk.

I reckon it may be quite a while before I completely stamp out the undesirable behaviors, but there have been significant improvements in his behavior. I hope this helps.

edit: for terrible spelling. Also to add the cars that make him 'tick' are the loud ones.

Edited October 20, 2010 by bumpties

[sheena]

When you go on your walks take with you lots of treats & a water squirter bottle. Be very aware & as soon as he even starts to think about lunging squirt him on the neck with the bottle & at the same time saying "No" or "Ah Ah" or whatever you say when you are not happy. The treats are for when he lets a car approach & doesn't do his usual lunging together with lots of praise. I had this problem with my border collie with cars & with other dogs, kids on skateboards etc. & it cured her. It didn't take long & all I had to say when I could tell she was thinking about it was "Don't you even think about it!!" & she would turn & look at me, the car would go past & she would get treated & praised for being good. I think the timing has to be pretty good as to when you deliver the water squirt.

[Max#1]

Thanks for the tips!

[Nekhbet]

you should hang back the flyball and work on your obedience and control. You're encouraging prey drive and now you see the after effects

by the way I would not be doing flyball with a 6 month old puppy unless you want joint problems. Flyball and agility are for dogs 12 months and over.

Put a check chain on him, if he flies out at a car let him check himself nicely, then when he's surprised call him back to you. Squirt bottle to a highly driven prey dog will do nothing, they need to learn there is a consequence before they throw themselves under a car.

If you need a practical demonstration you're free to come down to my place, I live on a main road, and workshop.

[sheena]

you should hang back the flyball and work on your obedience and control. You're encouraging prey drive and now you see the after effects

by the way I would not be doing flyball with a 6 month old puppy unless you want joint problems. Flyball and agility are for dogs 12 months and over.

Put a check chain on him, if he flies out at a car let him check himself nicely, then when he's surprised call him back to you. Squirt bottle to a highly driven prey dog will do nothing, they need to learn there is a consequence before they throw themselves under a car.

If you need a practical demonstration you're free to come down to my place, I live on a main road, and workshop.

Fixed my dog ....young border collie with high prey drive (also very intelligent)

[Nekhbet]

if s quirt bottle fixes the problem the either the dog has a very strong aversion to water or the prey drive truely wasnt that high if you could break it with a squirt of water

here's what prey drive can cope with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu6o29CFc0

[sheena]

if s quirt bottle fixes the problem the either the dog has a very strong aversion to water or the prey drive truely wasnt that high if you could break it with a squirt of water

here's what prey drive can cope with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu6o29CFc0

I really don't think the OP has a dog with that sort of problem...that is going a bit far. Also I might add that my dog absolutely loves water, goes right out into the waves with the surfers & body surfs back in, will swim in the dam all day if allowed & especially loves the hose straight in her face...but will behave straight away if I bring out the squirt bottle. I can't see the problem with OP giving it a try (on lead). The problems she is having with her dog are identical (from what she writes) to the problems I had with my dog & this worked for me & I have seen it work for others....so what's the problem. Sometimes the simple things are best...it might not work for her dog...then again it might....it wont happen overnight...& don't forget the praise & treats to mark the acceptable behavour.

[Nekhbet]

he started lunging at cars that were driving past and barking. On Tuesday same. Today he did it the whole walk, not just on the way home.

this to me suggests it's more then a passing phase. The video was just to illustrate really what drive in a dog is there to cope with if it has the mechanics for it.

I didnt say not to praise either, but I think a correction with a chain is more effective then a squirt

eta I deal with a lot of borders who show this behaviour, and especially with cars it's worth teaching them they're totally off limits and not worth considering now matter how potentially exciting they may be.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Max#1]

I just want to defend the flyball training. Rather than being hardcore on his joints or anything like that - the training that we're doing so far is specifically aimed at puppies. Like I said, the emphasis is on socialization (or is running and playing with other puppies of the same age too much?) and recall (I'm sorry, but if my dog will come to me despite other dogs being nearby/barking/running - well I'll be pretty happy to that). I think of it as an extension to obedience at the moment - because we're only in puppies and so far it hasn't been much of a challenge unfortunately. We're looking forward to beginners though.

Good grief, that you tube video is a bit scary - though I don't know if the water dribbling out of that hose would put any dog off! We do live on a fairly busy street, and since he's been a puppy I've made sure to expose him to the sounds and sights of the road so that it doesn't become an issue. For example, before he was fully vaccinated, I would go out onto the driveway, walk up and down, and give treats and do training. Our puppy pre-school emphasized this sort of thing - they actually gave us a checklist of sights and sounds for the puppy to experience during those early crucial weeks!

This thing with the car lunging has only started since I've been trying to keep him confined with his stitches. Today I tried a few different things - playing gentle (!!!!!) ball with him before we started walking and doing some trick training. This produced excellent results - he only gave one woof as we walked out the gate and didn't do it again. Then every time a car went past and he looked but didn't respond I'd reward him a lot. ETA - so I did feel a bit silly walking along holding the ironing spray bottle!

Nehkbet - I appreciate your advice. I can imagine its really rewarding working with dogs (particularly borders) and making a difference to their behaviour problems.

Question: are you implying that by doing flyball (even though we haven't actually touched a ball as yet), or even playing ball for that matter, and thereby encouraging the prey drive, I'm encouraging his instinct whereas I should be trying to squash it? To be honest I didn't think that was possible.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Max#1

[Nekhbet]

aha see when you said flyball I though you meant actual flyball with jumps etc NOT obedience and socialisation classes

Encouraging prey drive is a good thing. The problems come when it is not harnessed properly. A dog learns how fun and rewarding it is, if it does not get parameters put on when and where it can show the behaviour then it starts to exhibit it to other items eg, cars, cats, small animals, motor bikes, sprinklers, etc etc.

I train in drive, I think it's one of the best methods for highly active dogs with drive to burn. Two of my dogs are drive trained and go mad for toys BUT they have been taught they cannot show that level of drive to objects where it may become hazardous (or just plain annoying!) to do so.

As for youtube, again that dog is young and in prey drive. That is simply an extension of tug of war, and the drive helps the dog work through its anxiety of noise/hose/stick. That dog is no more dangerous then your own, just a lot more driven. I simply used it to illustrate what a dogs prey drive can help it overcome and the levels it can push an animal to, nothing more.

[Max#1]

I've discovered 'training in drive' once by accident. I got a great tug toy from flyball, and was playing with Max. I stopped and swapped to doing some obedience training and he was perfect. Straight proud sits, lightning drops, heeling (just stationary, we haven't learnt to walk heel yet) - so he'd run to my side like his tail was on fire. I was pretty impressed.

Now I mix up tug and obedience. We play tug, I tell him to drop it, then I get him to do something (sit, drop, rollover, speak etc), then tell him to stay...... until I release him to play again. Its great!

[Agility Dogs]

Encouraging prey drive is a good thing. The problems come when it is not harnessed properly. A dog learns how fun and rewarding it is, if it does not get parameters put on when and where it can show the behaviour then it starts to exhibit it to other items eg, cars, cats, small animals, motor bikes, sprinklers, etc etc.

Ah huh. We play flyball and both my dogs are reasonably quick (both run under 5 seconds), BUT neither of them is an insane rat bag that many flyball dogs seem to be encouraged to be. They can both sit and hold a stay on the side of a flyball lane (obviously only at training) and watch a team of dogs run and know that their job only starts when they are about to run.

Too many flyball dogs are just revved right up in the name of motivation and don't understand self control in that environment.

I'm not criticising your flyball training (I love it and my 5.5 month old pup is already doing age appropriate foundation work), but I guess I'm just saying you need to be careful about the balance between drive and self control or at worst you will just end up with a monster that is no fun to live with unless you are in the flyball ring or at best a dog with some annoying behaviours.

WRT the cars - we are working through that issue with my pup at the moment. For some dogs/trainers I agree correction is the way to go, I corrected my older two dogs, but with hind sight I don't really think I would have needed to do that if I had put in the same work that I have with this pup.

Wikki is very driven and lives to chase ANYTHING that moves, but I have had fairly speedy success in teaching her that it is more rewarding to look at me than it is to 'chase' cars. Still no trust and I'm still very vigilant, but at a guess she is turning from the car and looking at me 70% of the time after working on it for about 2 weeks. If she does look at the car a gentle verbal reminder (her name at conversational volume) is now all it takes to get her attention back.

That said this is just part of Wikki's entire regime and the other work we have done has formed the basis for this. She is amazing for a pup that is not yet 6 months old and I know that I could not have achieved it with my other two because they simply weren't at the same standard the this one is.

[BCPuppy]

I had the same problem when Marlin was the same age.

We live in a country town and she had not really seen much traffic, I was looking after my sick mum in Perth and took her for a walk early morning, we were walking along a busy road and she wanted to lunge at every car, truck, and motorbike, I was horrified . For the next few days I took her to the same road and made her sit and rewarded her for everytime she didnt show any indication that she wanted to chase after a car, she learnt pretty quickly, after a couple of days she was fine to walk alongside the traffic. I still have to be vigilant when a particularly noisy or fast vehicle is approaching and warn her quietly, but generally she doesnt bother with them at all now.

[Vickie]

The thing to consider about training dogs not to lunge at cars is that even if you change their behaviour onlead with you walking alongside a road with them, it is not enough to make them safe.

My first BC was a car lunger. I did many of the things suggested here & he learnt to walk with me alongside a road without lunging. I thought the problem was solved, it seemed to be...right up to the day that our arsehole landlord entered our property while we weren't home, left the gate open & we came home to a dead dog who had chased a car down the road.

I took no chances with my next 2 dogs. I corrected any lunging right from day one & none too gently either. I spent heaps of time with them on our family farm & on the beach on long lines with while my husband drove around. I taught them to respect moving vehicles.

My girls have never shown any inclination to lunge at cars whatsoever, thank goodness, but I still taught them to respect moving vehicles. I regulary walk all four on the beach with cars driving past & feel secure in the training I have done, both with cars & their recall.

Car lunging is SERIOUS. It is not something that you train like you train a sit or a drop. Training & proofing it correctly can save their life. Please don't assume that just b/c you seemed to have cured it onlead on the side of the road, that it is fixed.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Vickie