Registered Breeders..

[frufru]

I hope not!!!!!!There is a lot more to being ethical than health testing.

It is way too easy to become a registered breeder.

[♪♫LMBC♫♪]

The ANKC is essentially a registering body.

They do have a code of ethics, but it is just that a code.

There are some people that are registered BYB's and some that work hard at what they do and do the very best they can because they are ethical.

Unfortunately some people get a bad idea of registered breeders because they have unfortunate enough to buy a puppy from an unethical registered breeder.

I hope these Staffords have had all their health testing - for starters at least.

why on earth do u assume only faulty pups are born of parents belonging to unethical breeders?

ethical breeders do not have a magic radar that zero's in and prevents them purchasing any but the perfect genetic makup?

it aint possible.

there are thousands of deletrious genes yet to be dna markered.

bad luck can happen to EVERYONE. n anyone

YEP GIVE UP.

YES. have it your way IF A FAULTY PUP IS BORN IT can only mean the breeder be struck from the responsible ethical ranks...

would fix the problem faster. simply stike off every breeder who a defective pup came from.

that would even eliminate the puppy farmers. remember the shitzu x maltese with luxating patella, heart murmer and think it was 3 hernia's, robert zammit showed on tv once.

the world is not black and white

bad things do happen to good people. bad things happening to them does not prove they are bad people, sometimes i find myself wondering if the mentality of the dark ages and burning, drowning and elimination of witches is just the same just new names

believe it or not bad people ARE in the minority although to read this forum most could be excused for not realising that

Wow. I think you need to calm down a bit. No one said that having one 'faulty' pup makes someone a bad person or a byb. I'm pretty sure the OP was just trying to make the point that not everyone with a prefix is a good breeder, which is a perfectly valid point.

Sure, a good breeder can occasionally produce a 'bad' puppy. But a good breeder would do something about it, like refund a pup that has a health problem. There are plenty of breeders who consistently produce bad quality pups and don't care as long as they have the money in their pocket. That is what this thread is about.

[Poodlecrazy]

To be a registered breeder, one needs to be a member of their state's canine council.

They need to send an application for a breeder's prefix. Some states require an exam, some do not.

You do not have to show to apply for a prefix.

If you are not an ANKC registered breeder, any pups bred by you can not be registered (with papers).

All this time I thought all states required an exam. Which ones don't? I think it should be nationwide to require an exam.

I know that South Australia currently does not require an open exam to obtain your breeder's prefix.

I also thought Western Australia was the same, and possibly Tasmania? Any locals able to verify please?

ETA: At the moment, South Australia does not require you to register ALL puppies in a litter, or to Microchip the pups before leaving.

Unfortunatley some SA breeders are taking advantage of this and saving their pennies. It's really only about an extra $80 per pup to do both.

SA rule change Jan 2010 ALL pups must come with limited or main papers

there is a reminder in October Journal page 24

[JulesP]

The code of ethics is a little more than a code. If rules are breached the kennel club can suspend or ban the member. Doesn't stop them breeding obviously but does stop them from registering pups.

Seems like each state has different rules but for the OP they cover things like selling to pet shops, not having litter after litter from the same bitch, age that you can mate the dogs etc

[Christina]

To be a registered breeder, one needs to be a member of their state's canine council.

They need to send an application for a breeder's prefix. Some states require an exam, some do not.

You do not have to show to apply for a prefix.

ETA: At the moment, South Australia does not require you to register ALL puppies in a litter, or to Microchip the pups before leaving.

Unfortunatley some SA breeders are taking advantage of this and saving their pennies. It's really only about an extra $80 per pup to do both.

South Australia does now require you to register every pup & all litters.

No exam here but doing an exam does not make anyone ethical or even competent, on paper & for real are not the same.

In all walks of life there are registered & qualified people that one should run a mile from. Even builders, doctors, mechanics etc that do years of training & still stuff it up.

The puppy buyer should use at least some common sense & do some research. Buying a pup is not like buying a dress.

They should realise that health tests do have paperwork they can ask to sight.

What is testable & common in the breed can be found at the click of a button on the internet.

Also photos of good examples of the breed. There is so much advice available but yes it can still go wrong & its not always the breeders fault. What they do about it is where the ethics come in.

If the place is filthy, the dogs look neglected, the pups don't look healthy etc they should have the sense to walk away.

It would be a great word if all people were ethical but its often not enforceable really.

[oakway]

I think all of you need to calm down a little.

There are plenty of ethical registered breeders out there

that are ethical in dealing with the public and ethical in dog dealings with other breeders.

What asal is saying that we the breeders, as ethical as some of us are that does not mean we are above reproach from

some organizations who would have us wiped off the face of the earth.

Please future purchasers of Pure Bred dogs do your home work and select a breeder that is known for their high ethical standard

in dealing with new purchasers.

[asal]

The ANKC is essentially a registering body.

They do have a code of ethics, but it is just that a code.

There are some people that are registered BYB's and some that work hard at what they do and do the very best they can because they are ethical.

Unfortunately some people get a bad idea of registered breeders because they have unfortunate enough to buy a puppy from an unethical registered breeder.

I hope these Staffords have had all their health testing - for starters at least.

why on earth do u assume only faulty pups are born of parents belonging to unethical breeders?

ethical breeders do not have a magic radar that zero's in and prevents them purchasing any but the perfect genetic makup?

it aint possible.

there are thousands of deletrious genes yet to be dna markered.

bad luck can happen to EVERYONE. n anyone

YEP GIVE UP.

YES. have it your way IF A FAULTY PUP IS BORN IT can only mean the breeder be struck from the responsible ethical ranks...

would fix the problem faster. simply stike off every breeder who a defective pup came from.

that would even eliminate the puppy farmers. remember the shitzu x maltese with luxating patella, heart murmer and think it was 3 hernia's, robert zammit showed on tv once.

the world is not black and white

bad things do happen to good people. bad things happening to them does not prove they are bad people, sometimes i find myself wondering if the mentality of the dark ages and burning, drowning and elimination of witches is just the same just new names

believe it or not bad people ARE in the minority although to read this forum most could be excused for not realising that

Wow. I think you need to calm down a bit. No one said that having one 'faulty' pup makes someone a bad person or a byb. I'm pretty sure the OP was just trying to make the point that not everyone with a prefix is a good breeder, which is a perfectly valid point.

Sure, a good breeder can occasionally produce a 'bad' puppy. But a good breeder would do something about it, like refund a pup that has a health problem. There are plenty of breeders who consistently produce bad quality pups and don't care as long as they have the money in their pocket. That is what this thread is about.

until it happens to you, you dont realise how the culture has changed.

scenario, take litter to vet. they are all checked nose to tail. all declared spot on. hearts fine, patellas fine undercarriage fine all bits in place.

remember you are relying on your vet are u not?

the ones being placed go to their new homes.

they get their second vaccinations.

you are out with friends and one is the vet nurse where one of the pups just had its second vaccination. soo in front of all present you are challeged, "how dare you sell that pup as health checked, have you any idea how devestated its owners are to find you sold them a pup with a heart murmur?

how can you live with you concseince?"

soo. at this stage i had not heard from the pups owners so went to see them immediately.

to learn that yes the vet did think he could hear something but so low grade not to worry. so they had not called me.

but the point is, i relied on my vet, get bagged out in public for a crime i did not commit to my knowledge or belief.

the people listening en mass were totaly disgusted with me as this lady painted me.

none of these people were present when i learned the real story or that the second vet considers the same pup to now be fine.

so i have seen how fast you are a unhung convict. and the culture many vets and their assistants are fostering.

then theres the scenario of the missing bits, pup goes interstate for show n breeding. vet checked before leaving all bits in place and intact.

puppy arrives with new owner. then too vet checked and alls well next vaccination again all bits in place. 6 months later am contacted, one teste has gone. you sold me a dud.

hullo? it had two, it had two right up and until its 3 rd vaccination so what went wrong?

but hey u bred it so you knowingly sent one thats going to do a dissappearing act?

i know of one incident where the breedr actually had their vet open up the pup and find the missing teste must have been crushed since all the vet could find was the cord with a little bit of scar tissue at the tip. so it does happen

and ive since learned sometimes as the pup grows if the cords or was it the ligaments? dont grow too they pull the teste up as the pup outgrows the length of the ligament.

n that often its a mineral imbalance n tablet of it can fix it done soon enough. forget which, calcium n zinc? is it?

Edited October 19, 2010 by asal

[Paptacular!]

To be a registered breeder, one needs to be a member of their state's canine council.

They need to send an application for a breeder's prefix. Some states require an exam, some do not.

You do not have to show to apply for a prefix.

If you are not an ANKC registered breeder, any pups bred by you can not be registered (with papers).

All this time I thought all states required an exam. Which ones don't? I think it should be nationwide to require an exam.

I got my prefix in the NT a few months ago, I didn't need to do an exam.

[♪♫LMBC♫♪]

The ANKC is essentially a registering body.

They do have a code of ethics, but it is just that a code.

There are some people that are registered BYB's and some that work hard at what they do and do the very best they can because they are ethical.

Unfortunately some people get a bad idea of registered breeders because they have unfortunate enough to buy a puppy from an unethical registered breeder.

I hope these Staffords have had all their health testing - for starters at least.

why on earth do u assume only faulty pups are born of parents belonging to unethical breeders?

ethical breeders do not have a magic radar that zero's in and prevents them purchasing any but the perfect genetic makup?

it aint possible.

there are thousands of deletrious genes yet to be dna markered.

bad luck can happen to EVERYONE. n anyone

YEP GIVE UP.

YES. have it your way IF A FAULTY PUP IS BORN IT can only mean the breeder be struck from the responsible ethical ranks...

would fix the problem faster. simply stike off every breeder who a defective pup came from.

that would even eliminate the puppy farmers. remember the shitzu x maltese with luxating patella, heart murmer and think it was 3 hernia's, robert zammit showed on tv once.

the world is not black and white

bad things do happen to good people. bad things happening to them does not prove they are bad people, sometimes i find myself wondering if the mentality of the dark ages and burning, drowning and elimination of witches is just the same just new names

believe it or not bad people ARE in the minority although to read this forum most could be excused for not realising that

Wow. I think you need to calm down a bit. No one said that having one 'faulty' pup makes someone a bad person or a byb. I'm pretty sure the OP was just trying to make the point that not everyone with a prefix is a good breeder, which is a perfectly valid point.

Sure, a good breeder can occasionally produce a 'bad' puppy. But a good breeder would do something about it, like refund a pup that has a health problem. There are plenty of breeders who consistently produce bad quality pups and don't care as long as they have the money in their pocket. That is what this thread is about.

until it happens to you, you dont realise how the culture has changed.

I highly doubt that "it" would ever happen to me because I am not a breeder and don't intend on becoming one

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience. No one claimed that you are a bad breeder. But the fact is that not all registered breeders are good breeders.

[Red Fox]

So correct me if I'm wrong.. the difference between a BYB and an ethical breeder is basically.. health testing? Is that just it? Because I heard someone say that there are BYBers on DOL, so it can't have anything to do with a prefix.

no.

BYB= A breeder who is not registered with the ANKC (or a working registery).

Registered breeder= A breeder who is registered with the ANKC. (Has a breeders prefix).

In the case of both of the above the breeder may or may not show their dogs, may or may not health test, may or may not provide ongoing support to puppy buyers, may or may not care where the pups end up. In the case of BYB the pups cannot be registered (even if the parents are) as the breeder is not registered. In the case of BYBs pups may or may not be pure bred.

Ethical registered breeder= Registered with the ANKC. Health tests, often has show (CH, Gr CH, etc) titles on their dogs or working titles (CDX, UD, ADX, etc), puts a lot of research into breeding and matings, choses homes carefully, provides breeder support..... etc.

(The vast majority of registered breeders would fall into this catergory).

[Sasha (Alexander)]

How does a buyer know that the puppy has been vet checked and cleared? Does the vet provide some sort of papers? or does the buyer just take the breeders word for it.

[~Anne~]

You can buy a puppy with genetic health issues from a registered breeder.

You can buy a puppy and receive zero or poor after sales care from a registered breeder.

You can buy a puppy with genetic health issues from a byb.

You can buy a puppy and receive zero or poor after sales care from a registered breeder.

You can buy a puppy that is healthy and has no health issues from a registered breeder.

You can buy a puppy that is healthy and has no health issues from a byb.

You can buy a puppy and receive fabulous after sales care and support from a registered breeder.

You can buy a puppy and receive fabulous after sales care and support from a byb.

You have a higher chance of buying a genetically healthy pup, and receiving fabulous after sales care and support if you purchase a pup from a registered breeder.

You have a higher chance of buying a puppy that has genetic health issues and receiving poor or zero after-sales care and support if you purchase a pup from a byb.

End of story.

Edited October 20, 2010 by ~Anne~

[oakway]

How does a buyer know that the puppy has been vet checked and cleared? Does the vet provide some sort of papers? or does the buyer just take the breeders word for it.

The vet health checks all MY pups at the time of vaccination .............8 weeks

I believe most vets do this at the time of vaccination so if it's vaccinated every chance that it has been checked. Well as I said, mine are.

[megan_]

vet check is very different from health tested. A lot of genetic faults won't be detected by a vet check.

[aussielover]

Vet checking of the parents means absolutely nothing.

Vet checking of the puppies only means the puppies appear to be healthy at the time of the vet check. The vet cannot possibly detect genetic issues that may arise later on in life; that is the role of health testing parents.

Not all registered breeders are ethical, but registration is the first step to becming a responsible breeder. BYBers have not even managed to make the first step

Why bother forking out for all the necessary health tests on both parents for your breed and then not even bother to register?

I honestly don't think too many BYBers actually do ALL the relevant health tests for the breed. Sure, they might do HD on one parent if its a lagre breed, but I would be highly surprised if the did the full range of tests relevant.

A lot of BYBers also consider their dogs to be health tested as the dogs parent were health testes (from a registered breeder).

Obviously you can never be 100% sure but you have try and choose a breeder you trust. It also works in reverse, breeders entrust their precious puppies to new owners and they have to judge whether the new owner is going to be suitable to care for the pup.

Edited October 20, 2010 by aussielover

[oakway]

vet check is very different from health tested. A lot of genetic faults won't be detected by a vet check.

Of course it WON'T.

That is not what the poster was asking about.

Health/vet checks are usually given by the vet at the time of vaccination.

Heredity testing is usually carried out by the breeder on the parents of the pup.

Many heredity testings can only be carried out after the pup reaches a certain age.

Edited October 20, 2010 by oakway

[geo]

Why bother forking out for all the necessary health tests on both parents for your breed and then not even bother to register?

I honestly don't think too many BYBers actually do ALL the relevant health tests for the breed. Sure, they might do HD on one parent if its a lagre breed, but I would be highly surprised if the did the full range of tests relevant.

A lot of BYBers also consider their dogs to be health tested as the dogs parent were health testes (from a registered breeder).

I think BYB's don't see themselves as so which is the main problem and that they're less likely to register as they mainly breed cross breeds or unregisterable (is that a word?) dogs.

From a registered breeders perspective what do you think of hunting breeders? do you consider them BYBers?

[Christina]

How does a buyer know that the puppy has been vet checked and cleared? Does the vet provide some sort of papers? or does the buyer just take the breeders word for it.

My vet provides a printed sheet with all the things that are checked & ticked off.

If there is a problem on the checked things it is marked.

Adults are patella checked yearly & this is written on their vaccination certificates.

[aussielover]

From a registered breeders perspective what do you think of hunting breeders? do you consider them BYBers?

Not quite BYBers as they aim to produce a working dog. Unhealthy dogs will most likely not perform very well, so don't make the cut, which if one form of health control.

The problem with these sort of "breeders' is that they often don't keep all the puppies and end up dumping the majority of the litter at the pound or giving them away/selling them to totally unsuitable people.

This is just a generalisation though and obviously doesn't apply to all hunting dog breeders.

[Parkeyre]

To be a registered breeder, one needs to be a member of their state's canine council.

They need to send an application for a breeder's prefix. Some states require an exam, some do not.

You do not have to show to apply for a prefix.

If you are not an ANKC registered breeder, any pups bred by you can not be registered (with papers).

All this time I thought all states required an exam. Which ones don't? I think it should be nationwide to require an exam.

I know that South Australia currently does not require an open exam to obtain your breeder's prefix.

I also thought Western Australia was the same, and possibly Tasmania? Any locals able to verify please?

ETA: At the moment, South Australia does not require you to register ALL puppies in a litter, or to Microchip the pups before leaving.

Unfortunatley some SA breeders are taking advantage of this and saving their pennies. It's really only about an extra $80 per pup to do both.

SA rule change Jan 2010 ALL pups must come with limited or main papers

there is a reminder in October Journal page 24

To be a registered breeder, one needs to be a member of their state's canine council.

They need to send an application for a breeder's prefix. Some states require an exam, some do not.

You do not have to show to apply for a prefix.

ETA: At the moment, South Australia does not require you to register ALL puppies in a litter, or to Microchip the pups before leaving.

Unfortunatley some SA breeders are taking advantage of this and saving their pennies. It's really only about an extra $80 per pup to do both.

South Australia does now require you to register every pup & all litters.

No exam here but doing an exam does not make anyone ethical or even competent, on paper & for real are not the same.

In all walks of life there are registered & qualified people that one should run a mile from. Even builders, doctors, mechanics etc that do years of training & still stuff it up.

The puppy buyer should use at least some common sense & do some research. Buying a pup is not like buying a dress.

They should realise that health tests do have paperwork they can ask to sight.

What is testable & common in the breed can be found at the click of a button on the internet.

Also photos of good examples of the breed. There is so much advice available but yes it can still go wrong & its not always the breeders fault. What they do about it is where the ethics come in.

If the place is filthy, the dogs look neglected, the pups don't look healthy etc they should have the sense to walk away.

It would be a great word if all people were ethical but its often not enforceable really.

Excellent. Thanks ladies.