Use Of A Runner In The Ring

[Showpony]

Hi,

Would this 'extra' rule be in the ANKC Rule Book. Which is also available on line and might be a good thing to check and have a copy of also........if there is one. Cheers

I've searched the ANKC rules and regs and the VCA rules and regs and can't find anything to do with using a runner in the ring.

This quote is from my original post!

Hi,

Sorry........hadn't really remembered your original post and just trying to offer some help.......seems you have covered your bases with your phone call to the VCA........therefore you really dont have anything to worry about. Good Luck.

PS I know this doesn't pertain to your case but if you are interested you can see the DogsNSW Rules for the Use of a Runner in their Rule Book which is online in the Member Section......the Rule is in the Show Section Item 12:21 also Item 12:20(ii) also regards runners (you dont have to log on as a member to look at this)

Edited October 21, 2010 by Showpony

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

I interpret 7.6.28 to be the one handler per dog rule:

7.6.28 No person other than the Judge, Stewards and exhibitors shall be allowed in the judging ring whilst judging is in progress. One film/video person may operate from a specifically designated vantage point or area in the judging ring, provided there is no interference with the exhibition of any exhibit and the fixture Committee and Judge agree.

I interpret 7.6.21 to be the double handling rule which is breached when there is more than one handler per dog in the ring:

7.6.21 A person other than the handler or Judge shall not attract the attention of exhibits in the judging ring by verbalising or making signals or using any device. In the event of such an occurrence, the Steward in charge of the judging ring shall be empowered, if the offender persists after having been warned, to suspend judging and order the removal from the exhibition of the offender. This Regulation applies to all fixtures unless dispensation is provided to an Affiliate conducting the exhibition by the Management Committee on an annual basis.

CC

[Showpony]

I interpret 7.6.28 to be the one handler per dog rule:

7.6.28 No person other than the Judge, Stewards and exhibitors shall be allowed in the judging ring whilst judging is in progress. One film/video person may operate from a specifically designated vantage point or area in the judging ring, provided there is no interference with the exhibition of any exhibit and the fixture Committee and Judge agree.

I interpret 7.6.21 to be the double handling rule which is breached when there is more than one handler per dog in the ring:

7.6.21 A person other than the handler or Judge shall not attract the attention of exhibits in the judging ring by verbalising or making signals or using any device. In the event of such an occurrence, the Steward in charge of the judging ring shall be empowered, if the offender persists after having been warned, to suspend judging and order the removal from the exhibition of the offender. This Regulation applies to all fixtures unless dispensation is provided to an Affiliate conducting the exhibition by the Management Committee on an annual basis.

CC

We have the same rules in NSW as 7.6.28, 7.6.21 and rules for runners .......and the use of a runner isn't double handling. Our rules state that at the change over the of handlers, the first handler must move to the perimeter of the ring and there is to be no communication or hand signaling. Medical cert and permission to use a runner must be applied for and given by DNSW and a copy of this sent with your entries. We have people in wheel chairs showing dogs with no one ever complaining about double handling.

Double handling is the deliberate use of an outside person to attract the dogs attentiion and is a totally different. If the VCA have Rules specifically for the use of Runners for Disabled handlers then these Rules take precedence over the double handling Rule as they refer to a specific circumstance.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Showpony

[sas]

I've been a runner in NSW, the rules state that you need to have a Drs Cert that states you can't run etc. - with this you apply Dogs NSW and if successful you send this in with your entries, also your runner needs a number.

As a runner, I stand back and wait until the Judge asks the dog to be moved and then a step in, the whole process is pretty quick, I've heard some people complain it slows things down, but in reality you know when the Judge is going to ask to move the dog so you're ready, you take the lead and go, the transitions are pretty smooth if everything goes well. I never say anything to the Handler.

Edited October 21, 2010 by sas

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

We don't require a medical certificate. We require the change-over to be at the ring boundary, presumably to get around the constraints of the two rules I referred to. As I posted early on, the arrangements are still clunky if the exhibit gets parked a long way from the boundary, and the handler/runner combinations do sometimes mistakenly believe they have to rush.

There are two handler/runner combinations I encounter fairly regularly. They are now coping.

There ought be no need to contact the Show Secretary or anyone else about this except for the steward. If you think it's a new steward explain the situation to the steward early on, and suggest the steward consult the show manager if any doubt remains.

CC

We have the same rules in NSW as 7.6.28, 7.6.21 and rules for runners .......and the use of a runner isn't double handling. Our rules state that at the change over the of handlers, the first handler must move to the perimeter of the ring and there is to be no communication or hand signaling. Medical cert and permission to use a runner must be applied for and given by DNSW and a copy of this sent with your entries. We have people in wheel chairs showing dogs with no one ever complaining about double handling.

Double handling is the deliberate use of an outside person to attract the dogs attentiion and is a totally different. If the VCA have Rules specifically for the use of Runners for Disabled handlers then these Rules take precedence over the double handling Rule as they refer to a specific circumstance.

[Showpony]

We don't require a medical certificate. We require the change-over to be at the ring boundary, presumably to get around the constraints of the two rules I referred to. As I posted early on, the arrangements are still clunky if the exhibit gets parked a long way from the boundary, and the handler/runner combinations do sometimes mistakenly believe they have to rush.

There are two handler/runner combinations I encounter fairly regularly. They are now coping.

There ought be no need to contact the Show Secretary or anyone else about this except for the steward. If you think it's a new steward explain the situation to the steward early on, and suggest the steward consult the show manager if any doubt remains.

CC

We have the same rules in NSW as 7.6.28, 7.6.21 and rules for runners .......and the use of a runner isn't double handling. Our rules state that at the change over the of handlers, the first handler must move to the perimeter of the ring and there is to be no communication or hand signaling. Medical cert and permission to use a runner must be applied for and given by DNSW and a copy of this sent with your entries. We have people in wheel chairs showing dogs with no one ever complaining about double handling.

Double handling is the deliberate use of an outside person to attract the dogs attentiion and is a totally different. If the VCA have Rules specifically for the use of Runners for Disabled handlers then these Rules take precedence over the double handling Rule as they refer to a specific circumstance.

CC- What is the Use of Runner Rules number in the VCA Rule Book, I would like to look it up, this has made me curious now.

I guess the real problem here is the lack of clear Rules, proceedure and willingness to making things a bit easier, you seem to have in Victoria covering Runners and a Disabled handler, which in this era of anti discrimination I find very surprising.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Showpony

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

CC- What is the Use of Runner Rules number in the VCA Rule Book, I would like to look it up, this has made me curious now.

I do not know of such a rule. Feel free to contact the VCA re that and let us know.

I guess the real problem here is the lack of clear Rules, proceedure and willingness to making things a bit easier, you seem to have in Victoria covering Runners and a Disabled handler, which in this era of anti discrimination I find very surprising.

I think that's a long bow, because it seems Victoria has determined how a Runner could work within the rules they had (which I've referred to), and Stewards have been advised via the Stewards Association.

CC

[Showpony]

CC- What is the Use of Runner Rules number in the VCA Rule Book, I would like to look it up, this has made me curious now.

I do not know of such a rule. Feel free to contact the VCA re that and let us know.

I guess the real problem here is the lack of clear Rules, proceedure and willingness to making things a bit easier, you seem to have in Victoria covering Runners and a Disabled handler, which in this era of anti discrimination I find very surprising.

I think that's a long bow, because it seems Victoria has determined how a Runner could work within the rules they had (which I've referred to), and Stewards have been advised via the Stewards Association.

CC

[/quote

This is exactly what I'm talking about ........... VCA do have a Rule Book I've had a quick look can't find anything about Runners....not saying it's not there though could be under another section other than Show. Had a look at the regs re: Stewarding....cant find anything there either. Where is the written proceedure which tells everyone what to do and if it does exist why is it so hard to find.

If the only Rule that governs Runners is the double handling rule and or the only people allowed in the ring rule, it just clearly isn't good enough.

I'm glad that in NSW all this is very clear, you might not agree with the proceedure of having to get Certificates etc but atleast it's in the Rule Book and easy to find and very clear. Not open to interpretation which only causes confusion. Off my soap box now...lol.

I've been involved in few different sport at State and National level as an Official..........what really annoys me is people who have never read the rule book but think they know the rules or don't check the rules before making a comment or telling someone what the rule is.......... and Rule books that dont give you enough info or that are not kept current with amendments or up to date.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Showpony

[yarracully]

I interpret 7.6.28 to be the one handler per dog rule:

7.6.28 No person other than the Judge, Stewards and exhibitors shall be allowed in the judging ring whilst judging is in progress. One film/video person may operate from a specifically designated vantage point or area in the judging ring, provided there is no interference with the exhibition of any exhibit and the fixture Committee and Judge agree.

I would have thought that both the runner and the non runner would both be deemed as exhibitors and were thus both allowed within the ring at the same time. Bearing in mind that no discussion should occur between them and only one actually with the dog at any point.

The purpose of this ruling is to prevent others not related to the exhibiting of the dog from being in the ring. EG friends, members of the public etc.

[carlibud]

I know this isnt really going to help the question , but at a show recently I was showing against another lady for Bitch CC and the lady had never shown her bitch before ( GSD) so the JUDGE actually asked me,

" I have never done this before, but would you mind if I got someone else to handle the other bitch so that at least I can make it a bit fairer competition :p

I said I didnt mind as she really wasnt even sure how to set the bitch up

Even though it was bit of a shock I understood what he was doing ;)

Just for the record I still got BCC.

Mind you I may have been peeved if she had won the Challenge

So that was actually from the judge .

Actually at a Judges training Class at our show a few weeks back, A young boy had a GSD male in and he couldnt handle him very well, Just too strong, and the judge asked if I would please take him around, as I was standing hehind him with my girl :D

So guessing its getting more of its the dog's performance and not just who is handling :p

I have seen it a few times here in NSW and never seen a judge not agree with it at all , I mean why should they really as they are seeing the dog at its best hopefully:)

Edited October 21, 2010 by carlibud

[yarracully]

I know this isnt really going to help the question , but at a show recently I was showing against another lady for Bitch CC and the lady had never shown her bitch before ( GSD) so the JUDGE actually asked me,

" I have never done this before, but would you mind if I got someone else to handle the other bitch so that at least I can make it a bit fairer competition

I said I didnt mind as she really wasnt even sure how to set the bitch up

Even though it was bit of a shock I understood what he was doing

Just for the record I still got BCC.

Mind you I may have been peeved if she had won the Challenge

So that was actually from the judge .

Actually at a Judges training Class at our show a few weeks back, A young boy had a GSD male in and he couldnt handle him very well, Just too strong, and the judge asked if I would please take him around, as I was standing hehind him with my girl

So guessing its getting more of its the dog's performance and not just who is handling

I have seen it a few times here in NSW and never seen a judge not agree with it at all , I mean why should they really as they are seeing the dog at its best hopefully:)

Had something similar where I took A bitch in for BOB and my mother brought one of my males in. Now my male at the time didn't like working for anyone else even if he knew them, so as we went around the dog kept looking behind for me. The judge obviously picked this out and mentioned it to us. The judge then asked us to swap dogs as this would allow the dog to present better.

So it does happen, although in this case it was with my own dogs. Not been asked to run someone elses although I can see why the judge did it if it gives the dog the chance to show its potential.

It can be frustrating when you see a dog that should go better but can't because the handler either

* doesn't know what to do (may be new and never been shown how to gait or stack their dog properly)

* or is not capable of doing it for what ever reason (may be medical impairment or similar)

For this I am all in favour of someone else giving a hand to help the dog show better. After all it is about the dog not the handler, so if another handler can get a better performance from the dog why not do it?

[Shaar]

Sorry this is a little off topic but there used to be a lady here (haven't seen her for a while) Who showed her dogs while using one of those mobility scooters. Granted she only had small dogs but geez they went well along side the scooter.

I think situations like in the one yarracully mentioned above it should be at the judges discretion only, if they ask you to swap dogs then great, but if they don't ask then leave it alone. Usually if someone has a 'big winner' who usually gets both challenges they will already have a handler lined up that the dog shows well for.

[poodlefan]

Our area has an exhibitor who shows Kelpies (used to be ACDs) from a scooter. The dog I've seen shows very well for her.