Tim'sMum Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 A friend has asked for advice with her dog. The problem: We live in a suburb backing on to bush with lots of walking tracks. My friend and her husband both walk the dog (Jack - a kelpie/bull terrier/goodness know what X) seperately on the bush paths. At times, if he is off leash, he has confronted other bush walkers in a very aggressive manner - hackles raised, deep warning bark, and has scared the **** out of a few people. This has happened with both my friend and her husband. He doesn't do this when he is on the lead, only off leash and when he is slightly in front of either owner. The paths are pretty steep and rough in areas so it is sometimes easier to have him off leash. He is a normally friendly, reasonably docile dog and is a AWL rescue they got at 9 months and is now 18 months old. I initially thought it might be protective behaviour but as he is fine when on the lead and meeting others on the bush tracks this wouldn't be the case???? Any suggestions to deal with this is do you think he is better just kept on the lead at all times. Just an afterthought - he is fine at the off leash park - never shows any aggression to dogs or people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dali-love Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Guessing but he might be scared as the lead (and thus security) are gone. Ask the owner about the stand of his ears, tail and general body (does he make himself big or small) also in any situation send them to obedience training so they get better control over the dog and the dog learns to trust its master. dont forget as a pack leader YOU have to protect the dog NOT the other way around!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Tim's Mum, "He doesn't do this when he is on the lead, only off leash and when he is slightly in front of either owner." When he is 'slightly in front' suggests to me that the dog is taking the alpha role and protecting his family. Other than suggesting obedience, I don't know what the solution to this problem is. Being able to call your dog back into the heel position I imagine would help. Best to seek an experience trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derharv GSD'S Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 I would definetly keep the dog on lead for the time being just to be safe, but reccommend to your friend to get the dog into obedience training to get some help with socialising the dog and getting some control off leash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina77 Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 (edited) I have no expert advice , just my 2 cents worth Keeping him on the leash for now while she keeps training up to prevent this behaviour would be best, can you imaging being the person being confronted by him on their walks ? It would scare me , and if the person shows they are scared , the dog will recognise this signal and that could lead to repeat behaviour , cause/effect type etc. Perhaps distracting him (while on the lead) as people aproach so he concentrates on her not them, I used treats as my dog just wanted to say hello to everyone and get over-exited (This is the opposite to your friends dogs behaviour but I can't see why it wouldn't work the same) She now ignores people/dogs until they address her , then she still goes nuts Hello to Bella is "wow , pat me , play with me" were actually trying to desensitise her to the word Hello by doing it over and over at home , at first we'd get the over exited response , now she kind of looks at us as if to say "I am sooooo over that word" Perhaps keeping him on the lead while bush walking might just be the only option if training doesn't help , better safe then sorry Edited January 30, 2005 by Christina77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 (edited) The strange thing about Jack is that he is fine at the off-leash park. Socialises very well with other dogs or people, comes back to his owner when called and is very obedient. This only occurs on the narrow bush tracks and all I have been able to suggest is using a long lead, which I use for Danni. They have told him off and put him back on the lead and gone straight home but as it could be another 2kms back home it's not reinforcing it as a deterrant for his behaviour.....he still gets the enjoyment of the walk home. Dali-love........the fear thing may be an issue, he is more secure on lead? All my friend said was he had raised hackles, blocked the path and barks with a deep warning bark? I guess some professional obedience training may be worthwhile? Edited January 30, 2005 by Tim'sMum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 It is not that I know the answer but perhaps they could try with having him with the lead dragging and them not holding it. And see what his responce is than. If the theory of the lead providing the security for the dog is correct than dog is lead smart and will behave simmilar by having the lead attched and dragging. Than it will be the matter of shortening the lead on regular basis to get back to the no lead on the dog and having the same responce. From own experience - if I leave the lead attached (and dragging) to my dog he will recall 100%, the moment I unclip, it it might not be 100%. K9 Force where are you - this is something for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 K9: Im guessing the way they use the leash is held tight all the time, if it wasnit the dog would not know it was on or off leash. The deep bark etc is from defence drive, this means the dog feaqrs people. Maybe the leash gives security, maybe not. Firstly, the dog should not be allowed off leash until it will recall under distraction. Then a desensitization program will be required to reduce/eliminate the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 k9- Are you saying dogs can't tell if they are on a leash unless it is tight? Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) Take another person's perspective...a walker who has been or will be, frightened witless when an off-leash dog comes at them behaving as you describe. I love dogs...& am not frightened of them. But I've had horrible experiences with my leashed dogs on walking tracks when other people's off-leash dogs have come racing aggressively. One time, my 2 shelties reacted by twisting their leads around my legs so I was flattened on the ground with a snarling dog circling. 2 men raced up to the rescue. The dog's owner just stood there with the dog's lead over her arm. Another time, people didn't notice their GSD coming like a bat out of hell at the shelties. I honestly thought we'd had it...& bent down & put my arms around my dogs. Thank goodness, at the last minute, the owner noticed & whistled his dog, which propped. Another time, a cattle dog did the same. But he made it to us. I'd put my arm in front of my shelties & I got the deep bite. The local council investigated that one....& the ranger was amused when I kept defending the dog...because it had meant to bite my sheltie, NOT me. He said I was the only person he'd come across who'd been badly bitten, but who stuck up for the dog. It was the owner's fault, in my opinion. I commend your friends for recognizing the problem & wanting to do something about it. Please tell them they're right... it's unacceptable for other walkers to be frightened witless by a charging dog in a public place like a walking track. Dogs in a public place should be on a lead. Except in an off-leash park. That's the only solution in my opinion. Edited January 31, 2005 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Dogs in a public place should be on a lead. Except in an off-leash park. That's the only solution in my opinion. He will be on lead until they come up with some answers. The problem with some of the tracks they like to walk is that they are steep and rocky and can be dangerous and difficult with a dog on a short lead - the dog jumps off a rock ledge while you are clambering down. I've been pulled off my feet before too, although I find the long lead solves this problem with Danni. Tim is off leash on the more difficult tracks. K9 Force - can you explain about the desensitisation program; how does it work and where it would be available? Would his history as a rescue dog have something to do with it? AWL told them he was surrendered due to a marriage breakup? It worries the owner a lot. Another 'dog park' friend's rescued dog was recently put down as it attacked a family member with no provocation. They and our vet felt it too dangerous to rehome him again. This preys on Jack's owner's mind I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 He will be on lead until they come up with some answers. It doesn't matter how well trained a dog is, it should be on a leash in a public place, in my opinion. And that includes your friend's dog. If not, then he/she will have to bear the responsibility should any situation arise. When I'd feel sorry for the dog...& other people. But I'm prepared to hear a convincing reason that an exception should be made for this particular dog. And that reason should have the words 'other users of the walking track' somewhere in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) But I'm prepared to hear a convincing reason that an exception should be made for this particular dog. And that reason should have the words 'other users of the walking track' somewhere in it. That's a rather arrogant statement! Nowhere did I state an exception should be made for him. His owners are concerned with his behaviour and have asked for advice. They are not idiots and are concerned about other walkers.........that's why I asked for advice on DOL, on their behalf. 'Constructive' advice rather than criticism would be appreciated. The question was.........why would a dog, who behaves well off leash at the dog park suddenly start to behave aggressively whilst off leash on a bush track and how do they deal with this? They have had him for 9 months and always walked the bush tracks with him. This behaviour only started in the last few weeks.........and for no obvious reason. PS: Most locals walk their dogs off leash on the rougher tracks for the reasons I explained before. In fact, on one track you just about need climbing skills; rather diificult holding a dog on a short leash! Edited January 31, 2005 by Tim'sMum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 k9- Are you saying dogs can't tell if they are on a leash unless it is tight? K9: if the training is done correctly, the dog will not use the leash for communication with the handler, it will watch & listen to the handler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 K9 Force - can you explain about the desensitisation program; how does it work and where it would be available? K9: the first thing that needs to take place is an evaluation on the dog. Then a program designed based on the nature of the problem. Would his history as a rescue dog have something to do with it? AWL told them he was surrendered due to a marriage breakup? K9: possibly, but it really doesnt matter, its not how one gets here, its how they get back. It worries the owner a lot K9: which may be adding to the problem.. Another 'dog park' friend's rescued dog was recently put down as it attacked a family member with no provocation. They and our vet felt it too dangerous to rehome him again. This preys on Jack's owner's mind I think. K9: yes well, vets are not experienced at working with dogs like this, a good behaviourist would be the best step. I look at many dogs every week with severe aggression problems, owner willing & commited we have a higher than 99% success rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Another 'dog park' friend's rescued dog was recently put down as it attacked a family member with no provocation. They and our vet felt it too dangerous to rehome him again. This preys on Jack's owner's mind I think. K9: yes well, vets are not experienced at working with dogs like this, a good behaviourist would be the best step. I look at many dogs every week with severe aggression problems, owner willing & commited we have a higher than 99% success rate. Thanks K9...........I think I will recommend they take him to training to evaluate why this has occurred, the only alternative is keeping on-leash. They both love the bush walks and we all do the rougher tracks to avoid the mountain bike 'terrorists'! As to the other dog that was put-down...........I don't know the full story except it was a pretty nasty situation and unprovoked. He had been severely mistreated. It's just sad for all concerned. The owner is distraught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 K9: ok, but just to clarify, not a trainer, a behaviourist... Where are you located? Also, dogs dont do anything unprovoked, some will argue the provocation was not justified, but there is always a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 K9: ok, but just to clarify, not a trainer, a behaviourist...Where are you located? Sydney's Nthn Beaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 K9: if they are willing to travel to the hawkesbury as many do thay can contact me, however Im booked out solid until mid april. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 Thanks K9...........I will pass on your info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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