Latest News On Syringomyelia In Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

[shortstep]

for those of you who may not have read it .. here are some points from the current recommended protocol published in the UK;

"The aim of these recommendations is to reduce the incidence of symptomatic syringomyelia in the breed not to create litters of puppies guaranteed not to have SM as the chance of producing an affected dog cannot be predicted without knowing the inheritance."

"Therefore until the genetic defect is determined it is recommended that dogs with syringomyelia be used if they are valuable in another genetic sense e.g. good heart."

"any unscreened dog should be assumed to be "D" (and a "D" can be bred to an "A")

Thanks for posting this and it is where I wanted to go to learn about this breed at the beginning of this thread but it kept turning into a breeder bashing session.

When a breed has multiple complex problems such as SM and MVD and in both cases there are no genetic tests, there has to be some give and take in the selection of parents. Most breeding programs developed by those experts in genetics, for this type of situation, do not demand ridge and severe culling of breeding stock. You will end up with nothing left to breed and will likely make the MVD a more common and severe problem than it is now, and could bring forward other problems to the level of severe and common that are not frequent now.

This is one area where life experience (which in my mind is the dino version of EBV, only better as it goes back 50 years instead of starting data collection now) would be so important right now in Australia. Get those dino breeders to share what they know and what they have learned over the last 40-50 years of cav pedigrees. The young ones better start listening before that information is lost forever.

[shortstep]

if only I could find ONE other than my own which has been scanned that could be used for breeding

Some where back a few pages there was discussion about a number of dogs that had been screened in Australia so there must a be a few around.

You could do what I do. I reserch and then import a dog, raise it up and do the tests as soon as I can (5 tests to pass on my breed), if everything works out and $15,000 later I have a good dog to use for one generation in my kennel. It's not easy being noble LOL

[shortstep]

Good luck cav people, you really need it Shame this thread can't disappear before it does more damage.

Well said and I agree dump it.

[LizT]

Jessie,just because you know how to use a lot of big words which you can express so eloquently(as do I-Dux of my school!!) it doesnt mean you know what the hell you are talking about.When you have been a breeder for a few years,then maybe you can express your opinion .

NO ONE is denying health problems that cavs have,but testing alone will NOT guarantee the problem can be obliterated,that is what Jed and Dellcara are trying to get across to the people who are not breeders themselves.

If testing alone were all that was necessary to eliminate diseases,HD as an example wouldnt be expressed in a dog that is bred from parents,grandparents etc that are all tested.0:0 to 0:0 doesnt guarantee a pup wont one day be affected.

Sometimes,a breeder of many years experience that knows their lines inside out and back to front,keeps track of health in the puppies they breed,are as ethical as they come(JED )are of more use to a breed,and have more knowledge in their little finger,than most people have on this entire forum and you want them to stop breeding because they question the use of being told who to mate their dog to, to reduce(although from the results,1 in 4 pups would still be affected anyway)SM?

That shows how much you DONT know about dog breeding.No one except the puppy farmers would want to breed this breed anymore,and according to the vitriolic outbursts on here ,I dont blame them.Goodbye Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

Perhaps informing you that I have been breeding cavies longer than Jed that I have been a member of this forum longer than Jed will give me the right of free speech without assumption working at every turn I am happy to be told which dog NOT to mate if only I could find ONE other than my own which has been scanned that could be used for breeding

Why bother going under the guise of a Junior new member? What do you hope to achieve?

All opinions on this forum are valued, just not always agreed with. That's what makes it so valuable.

You needn't pretend to be someone your not in the hope of having your opinion valued.

Your fears for the future of this breed is shared but I don't believe it is as hopeless as some would have us believe.

There are many, many, Cavaliers out there living to ripe old ages, bearing offspring that are doing the same. All with no evidence of SM to date. A scan could show conditions that could be suceptable to the disease in dogs that may never ever have the condition themselves. Possibly eliminating healthy dogs from an already decreasing gene pool to no good effect.

[Jed]

Jessie

Perhaps informing you that I have been breeding cavies longer than Jed that I have been a member of this forum longer than Jed will give me the right of free speech without assumption working at every turn I am happy to be told which dog NOT to mate if only I could find ONE other than my own which has been scanned that could be used for breeding

Interesting. I noticed that you have been a member for a long time. You haven't posted much. I don't suppose being on here a long time or a short time makes you more or less experienced, and I don't much care that you have been breeding cavs longer than I have, if indeed you have. Half the world has been breeding cavs longer than I have. I don't actually see that as important, but you will not have been breeding dogs longer than I have.

If you actually do breed cavs, I do hope that you have more knowledge than comes across in your posts. Perhaps it is simply your turn of phrase?

Quite a few dogs have been scanned. There is a list of Aust dogs on the UK Cavalier club's website, but you no doubt knew that. So you can just phone up the owners and ask them.

Internet forums are fabulous, you can write anything you like, impersonate the Queen of Sheba if you like, and sometimes, people believe you.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Jed

[bet hargreaves]

Jessie

Perhaps informing you that I have been breeding cavies longer than Jed that I have been a member of this forum longer than Jed will give me the right of free speech without assumption working at every turn I am happy to be told which dog NOT to mate if only I could find ONE other than my own which has been scanned that could be used for breeding

Interesting. I noticed that you have been a member for a long time. You haven't posted much. I don't suppose being on here a long time or a short time makes you more or less experienced, and I don't much care that you have been breeding cavs longer than I have, if indeed you have. Half the world has been breeding cavs longer than I have. I don't actually see that as important, but you will not have been breeding dogs longer than I have.

If you actually do breed cavs, I do hope that you have more knowledge than comes across in your posts. Perhaps it is simply your turn of phrase?

Quite a few dogs have been scanned. There is a list of Aust dogs on the UK Cavalier club's website, but you no doubt knew that. So you can just phone up the owners and ask them.

Internet forums are fabulous, you can write anything you like, impersonate the Queen of Sheba if you like, and sometimes, people believe you.

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS

Some-body has just Posted about Looking at Cavalier Pedigrees for Information about the Ancestors of Cavaliers.

Now Please don't argue with me , these are Facts I am Mentioning, this is about the Heart Problem in our Cavalier Breed,we lost 4 of our Cavaliers at 4, two at 7, and 8 years of age.

Because of this ,I have collected Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble for many years now ,and have passed them onto MVD Researchers at a Couple Of Universities here in Britain and to a University in Austria.

This is to find out if there was a Link in MVD in those Cavalier Pedigrees.

I will go back to the 1940's and the 1950's, FACTS .There were Cavaliers dying at young ages because of Heart Trouble, but some of the Cavalier Stud Dogs were being used ,and must have been passing on those MVD Genes, some of the Off-Springs of those Cavaliers were exported to Australia.

I am not saying that those Exports had MVD ,but were they Carrying the MVD Genes.

Because of what happened then, and Cavaliers being Bred from 1n the 1960's -70's- 80's probably were suffering from MVD Genes ,and it is a FACT that at CKCS

SHOWS in 1983 ,the CLUB Cardiologist carried out Heart Surveys, and the Result was that the CKCS Club was warned about how Wide-Spread and Serious the MVD Problem was in our Cavaliers. The UK CKCS CLUB issued Recommended Breeding Guidelines for MVD in 1987.

These are still not being Heeded by some Cavalier Breeders to-day.

What this is leading up to is , are there now so many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Genes around to-day , that at a Recent CKCS CLUB AGM ,it was said that 50% Cavaliers have a Murmur at 5-6 years of age, and this figure is no better than what it was 18 years ago,is this the reason.

So does this mean that looking at Long Lived Cavaliers could be a bit of a Red Herring, could those Long Lived Cavaliers also be Carriers of the MVD Genes.?

So for goodness sake, don't let the Cavaliers' SM Problem go the way their MVD Problem has gone, Health Test and follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations.

I will only say that if you think this is because I am an A R Activist ,then I pity you ,I have loved the Cavalier Breed since we got Sweep in 1973 ,and he died at 4 years of age because of Heart Trouble,I started in the early 1980's to realize what a Serious Heart Problem our Cavalier Breed had,so let's have no more of Posting those A R Activists Insults about me.

I am trying to save the Cavalier Breed from Suffering the Pain they have to-day from the Hideous SM Disease and MVD, by the only way I know how to do this.

By making the Cavalier Buying Public aware about those Two Diseases Afflicting our Beloved Cavalier Breed,and telling them to only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and is following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations on their Cavalier Breeding Stock,and to see the Proof that this is being done.

Bet Hargreaves

[Jed]

Don't worry about it Bet, you've pretty well scared everyone away

LATEST NEWS

SLIGHTLY MORE THAN 3000 REGISTERED CAVALIERS BRED AUSTRALIA WIDE IN 2010

21 million people

63% dog owners

Approximately 30,000 cavaliers are being sold by those who do not register and do no health testing.

Bet Hargreaves

By making the Cavalier Buying Public aware about those Two Diseases Afflicting our Beloved Cavalier Breed,and telling them to only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and is following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations on their Cavalier Breeding Stock,and to see the Proof that this is being done.

30,000 puppy buyers will be told no testing is done. What are you going to do about that? I think you should try petlink or gumtree, spread the message there

Edited November 14, 2010 by Jed

[LizT]

Don't worry about it Bet, you've pretty well scared everyone away

LATEST NEWS

SLIGHTLY MORE THAN 3000 REGISTERED CAVALIERS BRED AUSTRALIA WIDE IN 2010

21 million people

63% dog owners

Approximately 30,000 cavaliers are being sold by those who do not register and do no health testing.

Bet Hargreaves

By making the Cavalier Buying Public aware about those Two Diseases Afflicting our Beloved Cavalier Breed,and telling them to only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and is following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations on their Cavalier Breeding Stock,and to see the Proof that this is being done.

30,000 puppy buyers will be told no testing is done. What are you going to do about that? I think you should try petlink or gumtree, spread the message there

Exactly...the registered breeders I know all heart test there Cavaliers annually. It is by this example set by member of the CKCS Club of Victoria that I, as a new breeder have learnt the best health protocols to adopt.

Rest assured Bet, we are not behind the 8th ball in this. Therefore we are attempting to take all steps available to bring things under control here and don't need anyone to contantly remind us of this, as we do have the best interests of the breed we love at heart.

Perhaps it's time to stop preaching to the converted and go earbash the BYB's.

Finding them might be a bit of a challenge though.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i have read this thread with interest and i am a bit confused by it all so please bear with me if i don't understand all the ins and outs.

if seems to me that if the heart murmur issue and the SM issue aren't dealt with properly that eventually there will be no healthy cavs around.

i don't understand why breeders wouldn't test all their breeding dogs (regardless of the cost) and then breed according to what's best for the breed (and gene pool) to ensure that they were producing the best puppies possible.

then breeding dogs would only be A's and all other dogs de-sexed. this would reduce the likelihood of heartache for puppy buyers that i think is behind bet's posts.

have is missed the point? is it too difficult to manage this over a few generations to reduce the likelihood of those diseases appearing?

Edited November 15, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'm not a cav person but I don't think it is as simple as that. Cav people correct me if I am wrong, but is SM a bit like HD, the tests don't accurately predict symptoms?

[Dellcara]

I'm not a cav person but I don't think it is as simple as that. Cav people correct me if I am wrong, but is SM a bit like HD, the tests don't accurately predict symptoms?

an MRI will confirm whether a syrinx is present or not ... the presence of a syrinx does NOT necessarily mean the dog will ever be "symptomatic". That is why current

protocol allows the breeding of dogs with SM that are not symptomatic (to 'A' graded dogs).

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I'm not a cav person but I don't think it is as simple as that. Cav people correct me if I am wrong, but is SM a bit like HD, the tests don't accurately predict symptoms?

an MRI will confirm whether a syrinx is present or not ... the presence of a syrinx does NOT necessarily mean the dog will ever be "symptomatic". That is why current

protocol allows the breeding of dogs with SM that are not symptomatic (to 'A' graded dogs).

thank you for the information.

so would it be better for the breed to confirm the absence of syrinx and only breed with those dogs where it is absent to reduce the likelihood of this occurring in puppies?

[Are You Serious Jo]

That's what I thought, there is no clear correlation of presence of syrinx to manifestation of SM.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

That's what I thought, there is no clear correlation of presence of syrinx to manifestation of SM.

but wouldn't it be prudent to only breed from dogs where it was absent? sorry if i am asking dumb questions.

[Are You Serious Jo]

If it turned out to be that simple then I'd say so, but I'd hazard a guess that there is another unknown factor involved that causes dogs with a syrinx to go on to develop SM. It may be the case that the syrinx doesn't cause SM at all, the unknown factor does but having the syrinx facilitates it? Without knowing why some dogs with a syrinx never develop SM I'd be cautious about discarding all dogs with a syrinx.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

If it turned out to be that simple then I'd say so, but I'd hazard a guess that there is another unknown factor involved that causes dogs with a syrinx to go on to develop SM. It may be the case that the syrinx doesn't cause SM at all, the unknown factor does but having the syrinx facilitates it? Without knowing why some dogs with a syrinx never develop SM I'd be cautious about discarding all dogs with a syrinx.

oh thank you i understand. so if the theory is that syrinx causes SM is to be proven what we need is a breeder that is prepared to only breed dogs that are absent of syrinx to see if any of the progeny get SM.

if they do then the syrinx isn't the problem but if they don't then syrinx is the culprit.

the sad part about all of this is there are puppy buyers out there buying dogs that have SM and the heart murmur and they don't know it.

seems to me if we are trying to promote pet buyers buying registered pedigreed dogs (because they are a better standard than BYB dogs) we need to make sure (as far as we can) they they are buying dogs without any problems that we can test for.

i suppose i put myself in their position, if i bought a cav that then became symptomatic for sm or heart murmur and i knew there was a test for it and i knew the breeder didn't test for it, i would be really annoyed.

then imagine if i had watched that pedigree documentary, i might start to believe it.

i think we are in a very precarious place when we don't test dogs when there is a test available.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Steve]

Sort of . - the test will tell you which dogs have it and how badly they are affected even though they may not have have symptoms.

They are saying if you breed A with A that you get 75% with no disease not just no symptom - thats the first generation - time will tell if breeding at least one A will lower the odds of 1 in 4 over subsequent generations. I havent compared the odds of getting a pup with HD if the parents score zeros.Though it does lower over time if only zeros are used. If enough scan and enough pedigree info is kept and enough info honestly shared then in one or two generations they will know whether the As they are breeding are still carriers even though they are not affected. That MAY be the case because usually the carrier is not affected so there's a possibility that at least some of the As will be carriers. thats if carriers are even counted. Remember no one knows yet what the mode of inheritance is. There may be something else altogether going on. The protocols for the MVD means they have to breed their bitches older than the majority of breeders do so its going to take a while to paint the whole picture .

With any breeding program you have to work out what it is you are after - in cavs most breeders have been selecting for good hearts because of the high incidence of MVD in the breed. If the incidence is relatively high for both MVD and SM then selecting against both at the same time is very difficult especially when there is other background noise about in breeding and how often you should breed , how many you should own. etc.

However, even if they are working on - say hearts- first and then intend to move on to the other when they have got the hearts doing pretty well I dont think it would do any harm to also know the status on the other to begin building a profile - of course even better if they can select dogs which are clear for both. But that may not be a possibility depending on the figures.

Scanning is probably not the whole answer to eliminating it completely and There are other sub issues to consider including ethics and politics but as CEO of the MDBA I would be disappointed and would have to step in to help any of our breeders to do what ever is needed to get their dogs scanned. I would consider that if our cav breeders are not doing this then they would be dangerously close to being outside of our code of ethics.

If this is ever going to move forward cav breeders need to breed lots more and own lots more so that when one or two dogs have to be eliminated because their hearts are skipping or their scans are no go they have alternatives to what they will breed with. They have to raise the prices of their puppies to cover expenses and have what needs to be done to share info and work together honestly.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't think SM is common at all over here, in the UK it is a problem, but our lines aren't the same. Testing is a mixed blessing though, it can give complete peace of mind that the dogs should be free of something when in fact testing is just one tool used, especially in conditions that aren't yet understood.

I would say a better way of finding the etiology of SM would be a huge comparative study, what do you find in common with dogs that develop SM other than the syrinx. This type of test is routinely done by ecologists to see what traits might be used for, and I think it would work with dogs, if applied correctly and with a large enough sample size.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

thanks Steve and Rev Jo for your patience

Steve that is what i was thinking, cav breeders would need to breed more dogs so they could have a bigger selection when choosing their dogs to breed from.

i also agree that cav breeders would have to be very careful if they weren't going to test for SM although i also see Rev Jo's point that testing may not hold the answer but a comparative study may revel something which we didn't know.

how difficult would it be to do a comparative study it seems to me it makes sense to undertake one?

Edited November 15, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Are You Serious Jo]

Comparative tests are time consuming, and unless the person doing it was competent then it would be a waste of time. If one of the anti-breeder researchers did it the outcome would be biased as they'd be only looking for what proves their theory. Good research is never easy but it is doable. Choosing the factors to include is the hardest part. I did one as an assignment in uni, looking at birds colouring, either monochromatic (both sexes identical) or dichromatic (sexes different). In that case I looked at all life history traits, eg age to maturity as well as environmental, diet etc. You need a nice long list so you can see if your species tends to fall into certain groups, for example lorikeets would fit into the highly social category. So if you found lots of other species that were monochromatic had large social groups you could conclude that they were correlated. It would rely on breeder honesty as well as good empirical data.