Latest News On Syringomyelia In Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

[Sunnyflower]

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

Ok... So we're an expert but not REALLY an expert!?!

Sunny Flower, it is expected when you post information from "studies" that you post a link to the study or at least give a reference to where the information comes from.

For example, you would say.

A recent study at Cornell Uni (Link to study) shows that Caves have a different type of MVD, which has an earlier onset then the typical MVD found in other breeds.

Then we can read the study and see what it has to say. That is all I am asking for.

Otherwise you have no idea if the information is in fact from a study, or was quoted correctly or perhaps incorrectly or is just someone opinion or conclusion but not proven by research, and if it is someone's opinion then you need to know what their expertise is, are they a PHD who has studied the disease or perhaps a breeder that has spent 20 years breeding cavs and following the disease affected patterns in their litters??

My questions about the SYRINGOMYELIA is again looking for the study (about A to A decreases affected pups to 1 in 4) so I can look for complete information instead of only the partial information that was presented.

For example I asked what is A, someone says the best score, well what exactly is the best score, free of all anatomical and clinical symptoms? Then what is B exactly? and so forth it it goes all the way down to D score.

So if breeding A to A (what ever that is) is producing 1 in 4 affected, then how much better is that then breeding a B to an A or B to B or C to a B.

You also really need to know the baseline % of affected pups in the general population of random litters before you know if you are making any headway in test litters. Do you see what I mean?

Someone else said that the screening and breeding A litters was the way to find the genes. This is not really how the genes will be found. The first thing you need to determine in pattern of inheritance and that is exactly what the information above I was asking for would begin to show. If you breed 2 A together and get 1 in 4 affected and if you breed 2 D's together (are their Ds??) and you get 100% affected, then you are beginning to pull out some of the information that will help predict the pattern of inheritance. so you need to know what the level of affected pups in all breedings. With out this you are looking for a needle in a zillion straw haystack

Why do I feel like I am being schooled??

[Sunnyflower]

As Jed told me. Go to the UK Cavalier Clubs website. It has more extensive research on it and even some Australian Cavaliers results listed.

[shortstep]

Why do I feel like I am being schooled??

Look my posts X2 were both directed to the OP.

Both times I was asking for the study links or more information about the study so that I know what they are talking about. I still have not recieved any links to the study stating that 1 affected out of 4 pups on A to A breedings was an improvment over what?, nor on the study that shows that cavs have a different type of MVD than other breeds. I can not become educated with just bits of selected information, I would like to read the studies.

I was not schooling anyone, just trying to explain why I was asking for it. So you do not need to read or respond to my requests for the links to the studies, and you certainly do not need to read the studies if a link is ever posted if you do not care to read them. I will not post directed at you again.

Edited November 3, 2010 by shortstep

[Sunnyflower]

Why do I feel like I am being schooled??

Look my posts X2 were both directed to the OP.

Both times I was asking for the study links or more information about the study so that I know what they are talking about. I still have not recieved any links to the study stating that 1 affected out of 4 pups on A to A breedings was an improvment over what?, nor on the study that shows that cavs have a different type of MVD than other breeds. I can not become educated with just bits of selected information, I would like to read the studies.

I was not schooling anyone, just trying to explain why I was asking for it. So you do not need to read or respond to my requests for the links to the studies, and you certainly do not need to read the studies if a link is ever posted if you do not care to read them. I will not post directed at you again.

That's fine. I don't have any direct links but it is pretty simple to go on google and google these things. It's the exact same way anyone is going to pull links up for.

Best website like already stated is the UK Cavalier Club website. Just google that and it will give you the link. OR YouTube Syringomyelia and it brings up videos of vets talking about it.

[Steve]

http://cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm

Statistical Results of Following Protocol

In an October 2010 interim report of the statistical results of following the SM protocol, Dr. Rusbridge stated that:

(A) Offspring without SM only occurred when there was at least one parent of Grade A status;

(B) There were higher numbers of SM clear offspring it both parents had Grade A;

© All Grade A* offspring (SM clear over 5 years) had at least one parent that was Grade A*;

(D) 100% of offspring were SM affected if both parents were SM-affected;

(E) SM also occurs in Grade A x Grade A crosses (approximately 25%, but this figure might be improved if more older dogs are screened dogs);

(F) Using dogs of unknown status was risky for SM affectedness;

(G) 50% of dogs in a Grade A x Unknown cross were SM affected.

*Note: Grade A* means that the dog had no SM at all and no CM at all.

Dr. Rusbridge provided these interim statistics:

● Matings of Code A CKCS to Code A CKCS have produced 75.9% offspring with no SM.

● Matings of Code A CKCS to either Code D, E, or F CKCS have produced 41.9% offspring with no SM.

● Matings of Code A CKCS to unscanned CKCS have produced 50.0% offspring with no SM.

● Matings of Code D CKCS to Code D, E, or F CKCS have produced no offspring free of SM.

[Steve]

I would like to know what they expect to come next. Mode of inheritance is not known, its said to be polygenic. Breeding dogs which are not affected- A grade gives no affeteds but what happens next generation.

In recessive disorders carriers are clear and are not affected so what happens in the next generation is the proof of getting somewhere for the future of the breed really isnt it?

How do you know if an A is capable of giving the gene to the kid?

[Miss B]

Miss B, have you spoken to your breeder about your boy?

Nope, all I have is an email address from 5 years ago which is no longer in use.

She was not a registered breeder and my boy has no pedigree papers to trace his relatives, unfortunately.

[shortstep]

http://cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm

Statistical Results of Following Protocol

In an October 2010 interim report of the statistical results of following the SM protocol, Dr. Rusbridge stated that:

(A) Offspring without SM only occurred when there was at least one parent of Grade A status;

(B) There were higher numbers of SM clear offspring it both parents had Grade A;

© All Grade A* offspring (SM clear over 5 years) had at least one parent that was Grade A*;

(D) 100% of offspring were SM affected if both parents were SM-affected;

(E) SM also occurs in Grade A x Grade A crosses (approximately 25%, but this figure might be improved if more older dogs are screened dogs);

(F) Using dogs of unknown status was risky for SM affectedness;

(G) 50% of dogs in a Grade A x Unknown cross were SM affected.

*Note: Grade A* means that the dog had no SM at all and no CM at all.

Dr. Rusbridge provided these interim statistics:

● Matings of Code A CKCS to Code A CKCS have produced 75.9% offspring with no SM.

● Matings of Code A CKCS to either Code D, E, or F CKCS have produced 41.9% offspring with no SM.

● Matings of Code A CKCS to unscanned CKCS have produced 50.0% offspring with no SM.

● Matings of Code D CKCS to Code D, E, or F CKCS have produced no offspring free of SM.

Thanks Steve that was what I was looking for.

Any mention how many dogs per 100 were "A" scored? Just wondering what % of the population they will loose right off by only breeding A dogs. Then of course they would also have to pass the MVD breeding proticals. That would tell the real population in the breed (in the UK) that are left to use. If 1 in 4 from 2 'A' parents are still affected then it is certainly still there and recessive in some from. To end up with intense inbreeding on recessive like that is not a pretty thought. I have heard comments that there are not enough dogs left to keep the breed going, but have not seen that in factual form. I have also heard it is a much better situation here.

[Jed]

Steve

A grade gives no affeteds but what happens next generation.

Incorrect. A + A gives75% unaffected.

No one has any idea what happens to the next generation. Or the one after that. You are correct there

Every dog used in breeding should be mri'd, factor in at least $1000.oo. Even if they come up as A there is no guarantee that the pups will not be the 75% unaffected.

I have never produced any affected pups, so going on what has been said, my dog at least is an A.

Many responsible breeders will think twice about breeding. Some have stopped. but the unknowing and the uncaring will continue. It is more important than ever to proceed carefully with tested and pedigree dogs.

I have noticed in a casual sort of way, that most of the cavs affected are not registered, or not from breeders who are proud of their stock and will stand up and be counted.

Shortstep - widen your research to other researchers if you are interested. America is good, also Europe. IMHO, more balanced

[periannath]

Unfortunately recessive genes can also come with a twist. It is such in the case of Primary lens luxation(PLL). A yet unknown % of carriers are symptomatic & will fully luxate.Research is ongoing.

A caution as well.With PLL many breeders said they hadn't bred a dog with PLL.Some were not being truthful and some were sincere.The problem is unless you track down and test every dog you have bred you don't know for sure.Add to this we found that the vets treating the dogs told the owners that it was a problem in the breed but no test was available.So pet owners didn't contact their breeders.We had that happen in our own kennel and we weren't the only ones and that invariably meant more affected dogs were produced.

[bet hargreaves]

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

You will find Bet Hargreaves on quite a few dog forums preaching the same thing day after day .... and usually constantly

"breeder bashing" the UK Cavalier breeders.

When the going gets tough she will retreat to a forum where those she criticizes have no right of reply as they are not

allowed to join that forum.

Often BH will misquote or take completely out of cpntext what people have said ... and rarely posts corrections.

To my knowledge she has never breed Cavaliers and I believe she has not owned one for some time.

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS

I will not be making any Excuses or Apologies because we have never been Cavalier Breeders , though what that has to do with me being involved for at least the Past 20 years with the MVD Trouble in our Breed ,I just cannot understand.

The reason for my Involvement in the Cavalier Breed is because of the Heart Ache of some of our Cavaliers dying at such Ages because of the MVD Problem afflicting our Cherished Cavalier Breed

I have collected around 400 Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble and sent them to a Couple of Universities here in Britain and One in Austria,to the Researchers who are Researching the Cavaliers MVD Problem.

In-fact some are being used at the moment with the Genetic Research into MVD in Cavaliers.

It is a Myth to say I am Cavalier Breeder Bashing ,I will always say ,and continue saying ,that the Cavalier Buying Public ,should be made aware about SM and MVD in the Cavalier Breed and be advised only to buy from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and follows the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock.How can that be Termed Breeder Bashing,I would sure like to know.

This way the Puppy Farmers and BYB's will also be being involved when they are asked those Questions by the Cavalier Buying Public.

No ,we do not have any Cavaliers now, we are Pensioners , and when we did have Cavaliers , the Vet's Bill was over £100 a month , the MVD Pills cost at least £1 each, and now with SM in the Cavalier Breed , we just can't take the risk of the Expense that we could be involved with.

I don't know the Price of the Pills for SM but I believe they could also be around £ 1 each, .

I am unaware that I have taken Quotes out of Context, and to say when the Going Gets Tough ,I will retreat ,...

The Going has been Tough for me the Past 20 years, being involved with the MVD Problem in our Cavaliers.

The best Hope that I think the Cavaliers have ,will be when the Genes are found for SM and MVD ,then the Carriers will also be found.

At the moment though, all I can think of for our Cavaliers ,is to get the Cavalier Buying Public ,only to buy from Cavalier Breeders who Heath Test and follow out the Cavalier Breeding Guideline Recommendations, in that way ,the Folk who buy a Cavalier, could be saved ,just maybe ,the Expense of the Medication for SM and MVD

Bet Hargreaves

[Steve]

Unfortunately recessive genes can also come with a twist. It is such in the case of Primary lens luxation(PLL). A yet unknown % of carriers are symptomatic & will fully luxate.Research is ongoing.

A caution as well.With PLL many breeders said they hadn't bred a dog with PLL.Some were not being truthful and some were sincere.The problem is unless you track down and test every dog you have bred you don't know for sure.Add to this we found that the vets treating the dogs told the owners that it was a problem in the breed but no test was available.So pet owners didn't contact their breeders.We had that happen in our own kennel and we weren't the only ones and that invariably meant more affected dogs were produced.

True except in the case of both MVD and SM no one knows the mode of inheritance which complicates it even more.

[Steve]

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

You will find Bet Hargreaves on quite a few dog forums preaching the same thing day after day .... and usually constantly

"breeder bashing" the UK Cavalier breeders.

When the going gets tough she will retreat to a forum where those she criticizes have no right of reply as they are not

allowed to join that forum.

Often BH will misquote or take completely out of cpntext what people have said ... and rarely posts corrections.

To my knowledge she has never breed Cavaliers and I believe she has not owned one for some time.

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS

I will not be making any Excuses or Apologies because we have never been Cavalier Breeders , though what that has to do with me being involved for at least the Past 20 years with the MVD Trouble in our Breed ,I just cannot understand.

The reason for my Involvement in the Cavalier Breed is because of the Heart Ache of some of our Cavaliers dying at such Ages because of the MVD Problem afflicting our Cherished Cavalier Breed

I have collected around 400 Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble and sent them to a Couple of Universities here in Britain and One in Austria,to the Researchers who are Researching the Cavaliers MVD Problem.

In-fact some are being used at the moment with the Genetic Research into MVD in Cavaliers.

It is a Myth to say I am Cavalier Breeder Bashing ,I will always say ,and continue saying ,that the Cavalier Buying Public ,should be made aware about SM and MVD in the Cavalier Breed and be advised only to buy from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and follows the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock.How can that be Termed Breeder Bashing,I would sure like to know.

This way the Puppy Farmers and BYB's will also be being involved when they are asked those Questions by the Cavalier Buying Public.

No ,we do not have any Cavaliers now, we are Pensioners , and when we did have Cavaliers , the Vet's Bill was over £100 a month , the MVD Pills cost at least £1 each, and now with SM in the Cavalier Breed , we just can't take the risk of the Expense that we could be involved with.

I don't know the Price of the Pills for SM but I believe they could also be around £ 1 each, .

I am unaware that I have taken Quotes out of Context, and to say when the Going Gets Tough ,I will retreat ,...

The Going has been Tough for me the Past 20 years, being involved with the MVD Problem in our Cavaliers.

The best Hope that I think the Cavaliers have ,will be when the Genes are found for SM and MVD ,then the Carriers will also be found.

At the moment though, all I can think of for our Cavaliers ,is to get the Cavalier Buying Public ,only to buy from Cavalier Breeders who Heath Test and follow out the Cavalier Breeding Guideline Recommendations, in that way ,the Folk who buy a Cavalier, could be saved ,just maybe ,the Expense of the Medication for SM and MVD

Bet Hargreaves

Yes I agree however, we both know that its more than likely that this wont be the end result of the focus thats been put on this breed - don't we.

[shortstep]

At the moment though, all I can think of for our Cavaliers ,is to get the Cavalier Buying Public ,only to buy from Cavalier Breeders who Heath Test and follow out the Cavalier Breeding Guideline Recommendations, in that way ,the Folk who buy a Cavalier, could be saved ,just maybe ,the Expense of the Medication for SM and MVD

You seem to be doing a very good job of painting the picture of a very sick breed, I would say you put the fear of dog into most people who already own or want to own the breed.

As I understand it, there is no hope of finding the genes in any multi gene disease (such as MVD and SM) at present. A new way to find these multiple gene diseases will have to be created first. I am sure you know that there is next to no hope for the DNA of these two diseases to be found in the forseable future.

Since even breeding dogs clear of disease has proven to produce at least 1 in 4 affected dogs and this is the best that can be hoped for at present, would you like to see the breed banned from being bred until the DNA if found? Perhaps just leave a small breeding population in a program under controlled conditions to see if any further progress can be made.

Edited November 3, 2010 by shortstep

[Gretel]

<I have never produced any affected pups, so going on what has been said, my dog at least is an A.>

Well that would be nice Jed but unless they are MRIed there is no way you can know. I've never produced any affected pups that I know of either but I would never say my dog is an A without an MRI.

[Jed]

No Gretel I certainly couldn't claim he was an A - however, according to the research results, one of my dogs is an A, and as the only common denominator is the dog, it is most likely to be him.....but who knows? Every pup I've bred is over 2 years, and I have been in touch with 100% of the owners till 3 or 4 - many for longer.

Your dog is probably an A too.

And you have as much hope of not producing SM affected pups by using that method as any other :laugh In fact, probably more.

We have both produced 100% unaffected pups with no tests.

Shortstep, I believe it will be a long time before mode of inheritance of either SM or MVD is going to be found. If ever. All we are doing is keeping a lot of researchers employed, without them coming up with any concrete findings to guide breeders. I could have produced paper that said 3/4 of the pups from unaffected parents would not be affected - just by guessing!!

I actually believe that the old pre-dna test method used to breeders which is "look at the ancestors", look at the uncles and aunts and cousins, and go from there is probably the best one. Provided you are diligent and honest with yourself. And you check the breeders you are dealing with.

The reason more unregistered dogs develop MVD and SM is because those breeders have little idea about the ancestors.

Bet, you are Carol Fowler are leading the way to the demise of the breed.

Unfortunately, many people do things they believe are good, without investigating the wider or longer reaching implications of their actions. And if you want the breed to be banned, you are doing all the right things.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Jed

[bet hargreaves]

No Gretel I certainly couldn't claim he was an A - however, according to the research results, one of my dogs is an A, and as the only common denominator is the dog, it is most likely to be him.....but who knows? Every pup I've bred is over 2 years, and I have been in touch with 100% of the owners till 3 or 4 - many for longer.

Your dog is probably an A too.

And you have as much hope of not producing SM affected pups by using that method as any other :laugh In fact, probably more.

We have both produced 100% unaffected pups with no tests.

Shortstep, I believe it will be a long time before mode of inheritance of either SM or MVD is going to be found. If ever. All we are doing is keeping a lot of researchers employed, without them coming up with any concrete findings to guide breeders. I could have produced paper that said 3/4 of the pups from unaffected parents would not be affected - just by guessing!!

I actually believe that the old pre-dna test method used to breeders which is "look at the ancestors", look at the uncles and aunts and cousins, and go from there is probably the best one. Provided you are diligent and honest with yourself. And you check the breeders you are dealing with.

The reason more unregistered dogs develop MVD and SM is because those breeders have little idea about the ancestors.

Bet, you are Carol Fowler are leading the way to the demise of the breed.

Unfortunately, many people do things they believe are good, without investigating the wider or longer reaching implications of their actions. And if you want the breed to be banned, you are doing all the right things.

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS

Unfortunately ,the Cavalier World is now living in Different Times.

Now it can be said that knowing a Cavalier has had a Long Life, gives absolutely no Guarantee that that Cavalier is not a Carrier of the MVD Gene or Genes.

This probably why here in Britain 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of age have a Heart Murmur ,is because there are so many Cavaliers around to-day who are Carriers of the MVD GENE or GENES.

No I don't want Cavaliers to be a Banned Breed, only for the Cavalier Buying Public to be made aware of the Health Problems of SM and MVD in Cavaliers , and be advised to buy a Cavalier only from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and is following the SM and MVD Breeding Guideline Recommendations.

Surely all Cavalier Breeders must agree with this advice.

Bet Hargreaves

[shortstep]

This probably why here in Britain 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of age have a Heart Murmur ,is because there are so many Cavaliers around to-day who are Carriers of the MVD GENE or GENES.

No I don't want Cavaliers to be a Banned Breed, only for the Cavalier Buying Public to be made aware of the Health Problems of SM and MVD in Cavaliers , and be advised to buy a Cavalier only from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and is following the SM and MVD Breeding Guideline Recommendations.

Surely all Cavalier Breeders must agree with this advice.

Bet Hargreaves

I will summarize what I see.

You say as long as breeders do what you say and end up with 1 in four affected with SM and 50% of dogs at 5 years with MVD, that this is not something that should be cause for banning the breed.

You are some how self rewarded by going around painting a hopeless future and horrid existence for Cavs. Knowing you are scarring the public, owners and breeders about how dangerous it is to own a cav is your mission and goal.

You do not want a cav in your life, even a Cav from a breeder doing all the things you say you want the public to know about is still not acceptable as a dog you want to own.

Of course you also add that even with all this testing, that owners are still going to very likely have a sick, suffering, medication expensive animal that you relentlessly keep describing.

Your message is clear, the only safe thing to do is to not breed cavs and not own cavs. Run as fast as you can away from Cavs and their breeders.

I understand exactly what you are doing.

You feel compelled and have made it your mission to drive this breed to extinction, you just do not have the courage to come right out and say that.

Edited November 4, 2010 by shortstep

[Jed]

Well said Shortstep, and absolutely correct.

Bet Hargraves

All I know is ,that last year the Cavalier Registrations issued by the Kennel Club here in Britain ,were 8,000,as against around 11,000 in previous years.

The government wont get to ban Cavaliers they will be extinct before that because no more are being bred.

Unless of course, non registered breeders and puppy farms make up the shortfall, as they are in Aust. No pedigrees, no tests, pushed off to the pet shop, no responsibility for anything by the breeder.

And sorry, a huge percentage of pet buyers expect all tests to have produced positive results and that the dog will not suffer from any health problem which the breeder may or may not have been able to avoid.

And they do not understand if there is no definitive test, there is no guarantee of good health - as with SM. Since I first began breeding I have given a guarantee against hereditary health problems. And I would happily do that with SM - but I would not want to be responsible for producing a dog which suffered.

[bet hargreaves]

Well said Shortstep, and absolutely correct.

Bet Hargraves

All I know is ,that last year the Cavalier Registrations issued by the Kennel Club here in Britain ,were 8,000,as against around 11,000 in previous years.

The government wont get to ban Cavaliers they will be extinct before that because no more are being bred.

Unless of course, non registered breeders and puppy farms make up the shortfall, as they are in Aust. No pedigrees, no tests, pushed off to the pet shop, no responsibility for anything by the breeder.

And sorry, a huge percentage of pet buyers expect all tests to have produced positive results and that the dog will not suffer from any health problem which the breeder may or may not have been able to avoid.

And they do not understand if there is no definitive test, there is no guarantee of good health - as with SM. Since I first began breeding I have given a guarantee against hereditary health problems. And I would happily do that with SM - but I would not want to be responsible for producing a dog which suffered.

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL

By a Strange Co-incidence, in this Week's DOG WORLD printed here in Britain , there is a Veterinary Column written by Steve Dean, who is very Influential in the Dog World here,

" he says that we all should feel sorry for the Cavalier People who have TWO Horrible Dilemmas in their Breed ,a Significant Incidence of Heart Disease and Syringomyelia .

To have either Problem is Bad Enough ,but to Handle Both at Once is a Real Dilemma and will take Great Fortitude.

That the Choices for the Cavalier Breed are Few and Uninspiring.

That to help in the Uphill Struggle Ahead for our Cavalier Breed ,is for ,Vets , Geneticists ,Scientists and and Dog Breeders to work to-gether ,gather Good Data,and apply Good Science and Common Sense to those Problems and Probably Progress can be made."

I think Steve Dean's Article says all that I have been trying to get across to you Folk,that the Cavalier Breed is in a Mess Heath-Wise at the Moment, and it will only be, by Finding the Genes for SM and MVD can the Cavaliers have a Future.

Bet Hargreaves