Latest News On Syringomyelia In Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

[Jed]

Liath

One of the videos I watched on youtube was about SM in UK and Carol Fowler. Shame on that blonde breeder in the video who lives in UK for knowlingly breeding her boy who has SM, he sired 26 litters after he was diagnosed!!! Maybe they should be showing a certificate to show that the parents are free of SM. I know that wont stop it but it would help.

Unfortunately, it is not that easy. You might like to read some of the earlier threads on SM. I don't think Carol Fowler is doing much for the breed, personally, and people simply dont understand the mode of transmission of SM - and whether there is proof that Roley has SM is another disputed issue. Better to stay right away from it., I think.

The only proper diagnosis is via MRI, and Sunnyflower has told us the costs. If you suspect your dog has it, find a vet who knows and understands it, and discuss an mRI with him.

[Liath]

Liath

Unfortunately, it is not that easy. You might like to read some of the earlier threads on SM. I don't think Carol Fowler is doing much for the breed, personally, and people simply dont understand the mode of transmission of SM - and whether there is proof that Roley has SM is another disputed issue. Better to stay right away from it., I think.

The only proper diagnosis is via MRI, and Sunnyflower has told us the costs. If you suspect your dog has it, find a vet who knows and understands it, and discuss an mRI with him.

I guess its luck that in August an MRI became available for use here at the University. Before that you would have to fly the dog to Brisbane to get scanned, so it has become cheaper but still over $1000-00. Unfortunately even if they thought my cav had SM we couldnt afford the MRI.

[Sunnyflower]

Liath

Unfortunately, it is not that easy. You might like to read some of the earlier threads on SM. I don't think Carol Fowler is doing much for the breed, personally, and people simply dont understand the mode of transmission of SM - and whether there is proof that Roley has SM is another disputed issue. Better to stay right away from it., I think.

The only proper diagnosis is via MRI, and Sunnyflower has told us the costs. If you suspect your dog has it, find a vet who knows and understands it, and discuss an mRI with him.

I guess its luck that in August an MRI became available for use here at the University. Before that you would have to fly the dog to Brisbane to get scanned, so it has become cheaper but still over $1000-00. Unfortunately even if they thought my cav had SM we couldnt afford the MRI.

Liath - I think when we decide to bring a pet into our home we need to be prepared to look after them to a certain cost, and I think being realistic $1000 is pretty fair in terms of vet costs! I completely agree it isn't cheap but if my partner and I couldn't save our money (which is exactly what we are having to do, go without until we have the money together) I think I would have to find it in our hearts to surrender him to the Cavalier Club who would be willing to put him through his tests and find him a new home to be fair to him. As Jed has said and all the research states, this is a very horrible and painful disease, to potentially know your dog is in pain is in my opinion a form of cruelty. We have a duty of care to these guys!

[bet hargreaves]

Liath

Unfortunately, it is not that easy. You might like to read some of the earlier threads on SM. I don't think Carol Fowler is doing much for the breed, personally, and people simply dont understand the mode of transmission of SM - and whether there is proof that Roley has SM is another disputed issue. Better to stay right away from it., I think.

The only proper diagnosis is via MRI, and Sunnyflower has told us the costs. If you suspect your dog has it, find a vet who knows and understands it, and discuss an mRI with him.

I guess its luck that in August an MRI became available for use here at the University. Before that you would have to fly the dog to Brisbane to get scanned, so it has become cheaper but still over $1000-00. Unfortunately even if they thought my cav had SM we couldnt afford the MRI.

Liath - I think when we decide to bring a pet into our home we need to be prepared to look after them to a certain cost, and I think being realistic $1000 is pretty fair in terms of vet costs! I completely agree it isn't cheap but if my partner and I couldn't save our money (which is exactly what we are having to do, go without until we have the money together) I think I would have to find it in our hearts to surrender him to the Cavalier Club who would be willing to put him through his tests and find him a new home to be fair to him. As Jed has said and all the research states, this is a very horrible and painful disease, to potentially know your dog is in pain is in my opinion a form of cruelty. We have a duty of care to these guys!

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS

Could I just add to my other Posts on this subject ,that I really do feel that it's by telling the Cavalier Buying Public, to make them aware of those Two Serious Diseases in our Cavalier Breed, SM and MVD , to only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and follows the Breeding Guideline Recommendations on their Cavalier Breeding Stock and to be shown Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is doing this, also let the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware of the cost of the Medications for SM and MVD,that this is another reason, why only to buy from a Cavalier Breeder who is Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

I know that the advice to only buy from a Cavalier Breeder who is Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock, won't guarantee that the Cavalier won't have a Health Problem in their Life-Time but at least they will know they are dealing with a Cavalier who cares enough about their Cavaliers and is giving them the chance of a Healthier, Longer Life.

Bet Hargreaves

[Jed]

Unfortunately, Bet, you can tell the public anything you like.

It is quite apparent to anyone reading these pages that the public does not understand that testing will not give them a 100% healthy Cavalier.

They expect testing to solve all health problems.

[asal]

Unfortunately, Bet, you can tell the public anything you like.

It is quite apparent to anyone reading these pages that the public does not understand that testing will not give them a 100% healthy Cavalier.

They expect testing to solve all health problems.

exactly.

been through the mill recently re that "show" pup. gee 8 weeks its spot on. 8 months the rest of the dogs great like two challenges. BUT the adult bottom teeth come in slanting forward n it wasnt the "general public" telling the owner who "has shown for decades" another breed. that blue papers mean guarantee its going to be showable n make champion n to get her money back. n one of the rat pack told me, never sells a MR until its adults are through and capable of winning?

so if even the showies are saying any MR has to be capable of winning challenges or the breeders unethical if they dont take it back.. what else can u expect from joe public?

can you guarantee how your childs adult teeth are going to come through ?

even if your parents died of old age and your nothing worse wrong with you than wear n tear, can u really in all honesty guaratee your own offspring a lifetime heath guarantee?????

yet thats what puppy buyers are asking for and expecting now. as i told one guy. u want a lifetime guarateee? then go to the breeders who are offering it.

whats the odds they will be even members 5 or 6 years down the track when the chooks come home to roost?

only recently my vet gave a pup all clear, clients vet, screamed youve been ripped off puppy has heart murmer... major embarassing... yesterday 3rd vaccination nnnnnnn three different vets cant find a thing?

the last one my vet picked up a suspicius murmer gave her to a reli, shes 3 now and perfect.... but

if the vets cant even agree what hope for us mugs?

perhaps its true, only unethical breeders get any imperfects?

which like the backyard term.......means? we all have backyards..... sooo just who is going to be left when every backyarder u unethical is gone?

but hey who wants to be realistic

its a perfect world for the ethical........

isnt it?

Edited November 1, 2010 by asal

[cavNrott]

Unfortunately, Bet, you can tell the public anything you like.

It is quite apparent to anyone reading these pages that the public does not understand that testing will not give them a 100% healthy Cavalier.

They expect testing to solve all health problems.

Nah! I don't believe most people think testing resolves all problems. I think testing for possible inherited problems would lead good breeders to change direction with their breeding program if they thought it necessary. However it seems testing is not very helpful with SM. From what I'm learning, it can crop up when there has been no evidence of problems in the ancestors. Is it a recessive gene?

Good breeders want to breed healthy dogs. I doubt most ethical breeders would use breeding stock that have been proven to suffer from SM. The unethical ones wouldn't give a rats and there is no shortage of the unethical ones. The trick is knowing how and where to find the good breeders.

I feel pretty sure that everyone knows testing is an investigative process, it's not curative and nothing is 100% predictable when breeding a living organism.

[LizT]

Yes, and I don't think SM will stop Joe Public from getting that "cute little puppy" from the Pet Shop window either!!

[asal]

Unfortunately, Bet, you can tell the public anything you like.

It is quite apparent to anyone reading these pages that the public does not understand that testing will not give them a 100% healthy Cavalier.

They expect testing to solve all health problems.

Nah! I don't believe most people think testing resolves all problems. I think testing for possible inherited problems would lead good breeders to change direction with their breeding program if they thought it necessary. However it seems testing is not very helpful with SM. From what I'm learning, it can crop up when there has been no evidence of problems in the ancestors. Is it a recessive gene?

Good breeders want to breed healthy dogs. I doubt most ethical breeders would use breeding stock that have been proven to suffer from SM. The unethical ones wouldn't give a rats and there is no shortage of the unethical ones. The trick is knowing how and where to find the good breeders.

I feel pretty sure that everyone knows testing is an investigative process, it's not curative and nothing is 100% predictable when breeding a living organism.

maybe im injected with pollyanna virus.. but i really think and want to believe such people are greatly in the minority. unlike your words seem to imply to me, or am i misunderstanding?

[bet hargreaves]

Unfortunately, Bet, you can tell the public anything you like.

It is quite apparent to anyone reading these pages that the public does not understand that testing will not give them a 100% healthy Cavalier.

They expect testing to solve all health problems.

Nah! I don't believe most people think testing resolves all problems. I think testing for possible inherited problems would lead good breeders to change direction with their breeding program if they thought it necessary. However it seems testing is not very helpful with SM. From what I'm learning, it can crop up when there has been no evidence of problems in the ancestors. Is it a recessive gene?

Good breeders want to breed healthy dogs. I doubt most ethical breeders would use breeding stock that have been proven to suffer from SM. The unethical ones wouldn't give a rats and there is no shortage of the unethical ones. The trick is knowing how and where to find the good breeders.

I feel pretty sure that everyone knows testing is an investigative process, it's not curative and nothing is 100% predictable when breeding a living organism.

maybe im injected with pollyanna virus.. but i really think and want to believe such people are greatly in the minority. unlike your words seem to imply to me, or am i misunderstanding?

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS

I am going back to my Previous Post.

I don't know what the Economic Climate is like in Australia ,but here in Britain it's getting very Grim, and going to be getting Worse.

The Pills for MVD cost at least £1 each ,and I think it's the same for the SM Pills ,if not more, if the Cavalier Buying Public know that this is what the Medication is going to cost for their Cavalier who can develope SM or MVD, then I think they will only wan't to buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who is not Health Testing and follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

All I know is ,that last year the Cavalier Registrations issued by the Kennel Club here in Britain ,were 8,000,as against around 11,000 in previous years.

Bet Hargreaves

[bet hargreaves]

Unfortunately, Bet, you can tell the public anything you like.

It is quite apparent to anyone reading these pages that the public does not understand that testing will not give them a 100% healthy Cavalier.

They expect testing to solve all health problems.

Nah! I don't believe most people think testing resolves all problems. I think testing for possible inherited problems would lead good breeders to change direction with their breeding program if they thought it necessary. However it seems testing is not very helpful with SM. From what I'm learning, it can crop up when there has been no evidence of problems in the ancestors. Is it a recessive gene?

Good breeders want to breed healthy dogs. I doubt most ethical breeders would use breeding stock that have been proven to suffer from SM. The unethical ones wouldn't give a rats and there is no shortage of the unethical ones. The trick is knowing how and where to find the good breeders.

I feel pretty sure that everyone knows testing is an investigative process, it's not curative and nothing is 100% predictable when breeding a living organism.

maybe im injected with pollyanna virus.. but i really think and want to believe such people are greatly in the minority. unlike your words seem to imply to me, or am i misunderstanding?

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS

I am going back to my Previous Post.

I don't know what the Economic Climate is like in Australia ,but here in Britain it's getting very Grim, and going to be getting Worse.

The Pills for MVD cost at least £1 each ,and I think it's the same for the SM Pills ,if not more, if the Cavalier Buying Public know that this is what the Medication is going to cost for their Cavalier who can develope SM or MVD, then I think they will only wan't to buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who is not Health Testing and follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

All I know is ,that last year the Cavalier Registrations issued by the Kennel Club here in Britain ,were 8,000,as against around 11,000 in previous years.

Bet Hargreaves

OH DEARIE ME. NEEDING A COFFEE, just noticed , I made a MISTAKE IN MY POST!!!!, should read ,that the Cavalier buying Public, will only wan't to buy from a Cavalier Breeder WHO IS HEALTH TESTING AND FOLLOWING THE BREEDING GUIDELINE RECOMMENDATIONS>

I'm an Epileptic, and some-times my Brain goes quicker than my Fingers on the Key Pad.

Sorry Folks ,about this.

Bet Hargreaves

[Steve]

Considering that MVD is the most common heart problem in all dogs as they age I guess anyone looking at getting any dog regardless of breed has to consider the same question - maybe a bit later but still in the sooner orlater probably range especially considering its even been linked to rotten teeth.

[bet hargreaves]

Considering that MVD is the most common heart problem in all dogs as they age I guess anyone looking at getting any dog regardless of breed has to consider the same question - maybe a bit later but still in the sooner orlater probably range especially considering its even been linked to rotten teeth.

UNfortunately the Type of MVD the Cavalier Breed suffers from , the Cavaliers have it at a much younger age than any other TOY Breed.

There is to be Seminar here in Britain 20-11-10 , where the Cavaliers' MVD Problem will be one Subjects being discussed by the Researchers in this serious Problem Afflicting our Cavalier Breed ,where it is known that in Britain, 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur 5-6 years of age ,and this is no better the Experts say , than 18 years ago.

I will mention again ,is this because there are now so many Cavaliers around with the MVD Gene or Genes.

Bet Hargreaves

[cavNrott]

The unethical ones wouldn't give a rats and there is no shortage of the unethical ones. [/size] The trick is knowing how and where to find the good breeders.

I feel pretty sure that everyone knows testing is an investigative process, it's not curative and nothing is 100% predictable when breeding a living organism.

maybe im injected with pollyanna virus.. but i really think and want to believe such people are greatly in the minority. unlike your words seem to imply to me, or am i misunderstanding?

The many back yard breeders breeding from untested, unhealthy, unregistered, underage dogs? Puppy farmers breeding the bitches every season for life? Pet shops selling badly bred Cavaliers from puppy farms? You haven't heard about these people? Surely you must have. They are not in the minority :D

[shortstep]

Considering that MVD is the most common heart problem in all dogs as they age I guess anyone looking at getting any dog regardless of breed has to consider the same question - maybe a bit later but still in the sooner orlater probably range especially considering its even been linked to rotten teeth.

UNfortunately the Type of MVD the Cavalier Breed suffers from , the Cavaliers have it at a much younger age than any other TOY Breed.

Can you sight a study or information that shows what different type of MVD the caves have in contrast to what other breeders have?

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

Are you an expert on these problems in cavs or only making sure the word is spread in Australia?

If you feel you know something about this information on health you are passing on, why did you not address the questions I asked at the begining of this thread?

Here they are again

Bet, for those who not up on it,

What is "A" ?

What is the precentage of dogs tested in the general population that are "A". Another words of 100 dogs tested, how many would be A's?

So what they found was if you bred 2 'A' dogs together, that 1 out of 4 pups was affected?

Do they (who is they?) believe that one in 4 is an improved rate on a previose rate? What was that rate?

What is the current rate of affected dogs in litters that are from random parents (parents not tested and found to be 'A'), is it higher than one in four?

Any further sugestions on reducing it down from 1 in 4 affected rate?

It is always correct when sighting a study to add the link to the study so we can read it for ourselves.

[Dellcara]

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

You will find Bet Hargreaves on quite a few dog forums preaching the same thing day after day .... and usually constantly

"breeder bashing" the UK Cavalier breeders.

When the going gets tough she will retreat to a forum where those she criticizes have no right of reply as they are not

allowed to join that forum.

Often BH will misquote or take completely out of cpntext what people have said ... and rarely posts corrections.

To my knowledge she has never breed Cavaliers and I believe she has not owned one for some time.

[LizT]

Considering that MVD is the most common heart problem in all dogs as they age I guess anyone looking at getting any dog regardless of breed has to consider the same question - maybe a bit later but still in the sooner orlater probably range especially considering its even been linked to rotten teeth.

It is my understanding from what Vets have told me it is the"cleaning" of the teeth that releases bacteria, which in turn finds it's way into the bloodstream and causes problems associated with heart disease. This is why all dogs cleaned under General anesthesia are given a course of antibiotics.

[Sunnyflower]

Considering that MVD is the most common heart problem in all dogs as they age I guess anyone looking at getting any dog regardless of breed has to consider the same question - maybe a bit later but still in the sooner orlater probably range especially considering its even been linked to rotten teeth.

UNfortunately the Type of MVD the Cavalier Breed suffers from , the Cavaliers have it at a much younger age than any other TOY Breed.

Can you sight a study or information that shows what different type of MVD the caves have in contrast to what other breeders have?

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

Are you an expert on these problems in cavs or only making sure the word is spread in Australia?

If you feel you know something about this information on health you are passing on, why did you not address the questions I asked at the begining of this thread?

Here they are again

Bet, for those who not up on it,

What is "A" ?

What is the precentage of dogs tested in the general population that are "A". Another words of 100 dogs tested, how many would be A's?

So what they found was if you bred 2 'A' dogs together, that 1 out of 4 pups was affected?

Do they (who is they?) believe that one in 4 is an improved rate on a previose rate? What was that rate?

What is the current rate of affected dogs in litters that are from random parents (parents not tested and found to be 'A'), is it higher than one in four?

Any further sugestions on reducing it down from 1 in 4 affected rate?

It is always correct when sighting a study to add the link to the study so we can read it for ourselves.

Ease up cowboy!! I haven't read all the post he has been posting but if my memory serves me correctly he is from the UK and if he does have anything to do with breeding Cavaliers from the knowledge I have been informed of from Jed and the Cavalier Club of NSW the UK is far more up to speed with this disease then any other Country and they have funds to help breeders MRI scan their dogs. Don't discount everything he is saying or have a verbal bash.

My knowledge is very limited but when speaking to Janine from the Cavalier Club it was said the dogs are scored with letters. A obviously being the best and I assumed D being the worst.

Clearly the best we can breed together are two A's and that would no guarantee a perfect litter without the potential of this disease but it reduces the risk to a point where you'd hope/think none of the pups can get it but anythings possible.

This is why they are trying to MRI scan ALL registered breeders breeding stock so they can find out the DNA of where this is coming from so they can pinpoint the line and stop the breeding of it! Hence why the do cheap MRI days but unfortunately not many people are taking it up, only the people genuinely out there to improve the breed, not just to breed and show.

[Sunnyflower]

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

You will find Bet Hargreaves on quite a few dog forums preaching the same thing day after day .... and usually constantly

"breeder bashing" the UK Cavalier breeders.

When the going gets tough she will retreat to a forum where those she criticizes have no right of reply as they are not

allowed to join that forum.

Often BH will misquote or take completely out of cpntext what people have said ... and rarely posts corrections.

To my knowledge she has never breed Cavaliers and I believe she has not owned one for some time.

Ok... So we're an expert but not REALLY an expert!?!

[shortstep]

Bet you can tall us about yourself?

Do you breed Cav's or have you ever bred Cavs or any other breed?

Ok... So we're an expert but not REALLY an expert!?!

Sunny Flower, it is expected when you post information from "studies" that you post a link to the study or at least give a reference to where the information comes from.

For example, you would say.

A recent study at Cornell Uni (Link to study) shows that Caves have a different type of MVD, which has an earlier onset then the typical MVD found in other breeds.

Then we can read the study and see what it has to say. That is all I am asking for.

Otherwise you have no idea if the information is in fact from a study, or was quoted correctly or perhaps incorrectly or is just someone opinion or conclusion but not proven by research, and if it is someone's opinion then you need to know what their expertise is, are they a PHD who has studied the disease or perhaps a breeder that has spent 20 years breeding cavs and following the disease affected patterns in their litters??

My questions about the SYRINGOMYELIA is again looking for the study (about A to A decreases affected pups to 1 in 4) so I can look for complete information instead of only the partial information that was presented.

For example I asked what is A, someone says the best score, well what exactly is the best score, free of all anatomical and clinical symptoms? Then what is B exactly? and so forth it it goes all the way down to D score.

So if breeding A to A (what ever that is) is producing 1 in 4 affected, then how much better is that then breeding a B to an A or B to B or C to a B.

You also really need to know the baseline % of affected pups in the general population of random litters before you know if you are making any headway in test litters. Do you see what I mean?

Someone else said that the screening and breeding A litters was the way to find the genes. This is not really how the genes will be found. The first thing you need to determine in pattern of inheritance and that is exactly what the information above I was asking for would begin to show. If you breed 2 A together and get 1 in 4 affected and if you breed 2 D's together (are their Ds??) and you get 100% affected, then you are beginning to pull out some of the information that will help predict the pattern of inheritance. so you need to know what the level of affected pups in all breedings. With out this you are looking for a needle in a zillion straw haystack

Edited November 3, 2010 by shortstep