Latest News On Syringomyelia In Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

[Jed]

My boy was 2 in July and I will saddly raise my hand in the air and say that his breeder has done no benefit to the breed and my poor boy is a very poorly built Cav.

He has a heart murmur already and a respiratory problem.

I am wondering if he has this! I have just read the sypmtoms and Oscar is ALWAYS scratching around his neck and shoulder area but he has no fleas, when I walk him he does this funny little dance because he HAS to scratch around his shoulders, I always thought it was because of the harness and over the past 12 months I have noticed if he gets picked up he yelps. There is no damage or pain to that area if you feel it he just yelps for what we thought was no apparent reason despite the vet feeling him over. Do you think he could possibly have this disease?

I am not by any means an expert on syringo, never having seen it, but I have seen videos, read forums, read vet notes, and spoken to vets. However, what you describe sounds to me like syringo. There is a scanner in Sydney which Cav breeders (and owners) can use, and it is cheaper than most vets to have done.

First you need a vet who has some experience with SM to look at him. I have no idea who that may be. Most GP vets have little experience with it, and may misdiagnose it.

And I can't give you a prognosis, but some dogs do well on minimal medication, some need no medication at all, and some are quite bad, and the outcomes are very sad. He doesn't sound too bad.

There is a UK forum for owners of dogs with syringo - unfortunately, I lost my computer in the fire, and no longer have the address. Someone else may have it. Don't go there until you have a positive diagnosis. :D It's like reading medical symptoms on the web, you are sure you have them all!!

Sunnyflower, maybe contact the Cavalier Club of NSW and ask them for the name of a vet who may be able to help. If you don't have any success, pm me and I will put you in touch with a NSW breeder with some knowledge of SM.

Is the murmur Mitral Valve Disease?

And if it is, have you spoken to the breeder? And what was the response? I would think a full refund of purchase price at least?

If breeders aren't told, they think there is nothing wrong. Sounds as if he got the short stick though, poor little guy.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Jed

[Sunnyflower]

My boy was 2 in July and I will saddly raise my hand in the air and say that his breeder has done no benefit to the breed and my poor boy is a very poorly built Cav.

He has a heart murmur already and a respiratory problem.

I am wondering if he has this! I have just read the sypmtoms and Oscar is ALWAYS scratching around his neck and shoulder area but he has no fleas, when I walk him he does this funny little dance because he HAS to scratch around his shoulders, I always thought it was because of the harness and over the past 12 months I have noticed if he gets picked up he yelps. There is no damage or pain to that area if you feel it he just yelps for what we thought was no apparent reason despite the vet feeling him over. Do you think he could possibly have this disease?

I am not by any means an expert on syringo, never having seen it, but I have seen videos, read forums, read vet notes, and spoken to vets. However, what you describe sounds to me like syringo. There is a scanner in Sydney which Cav breeders (and owners) can use, and it is cheaper than most vets to have done.

First you need a vet who has some experience with SM to look at him. I have no idea who that may be. Most GP vets have little experience with it, and may misdiagnose it.

And I can't give you a prognosis, but some dogs do well on minimal medication, some need no medication at all, and some are quite bad, and the outcomes are very sad. He doesn't sound too bad.

There is a UK forum for owners of dogs with syringo - unfortunately, I lost my computer in the fire, and no longer have the address. Someone else may have it. Don't go there until you have a positive diagnosis. It's like reading medical symptoms on the web, you are sure you have them all!!

Sunnyflower, maybe contact the Cavalier Club of NSW and ask them for the name of a vet who may be able to help. If you don't have any success, pm me and I will put you in touch with a NSW breeder with some knowledge of SM.

Is the murmur Mitral Valve Disease?

And if it is, have you spoken to the breeder? And what was the response? I would think a full refund of purchase price at least?

If breeders aren't told, they think there is nothing wrong. Sounds as if he got the short stick though, poor little guy.

Jed, thank you so so much for replying, I really appreciate your help. Oscar the poor thing cannot catch a break, we often tell him we love him but he was poorly built! It makes me nervous to get another Cav after him as to see my 2 year old dog almost having to be carried home from a walk around the block is heart breaking. And I wanted to do agility... Yeah right!

I will get in touch with the Cavalier Club, thank you, I wouldn't have even thought of talking to them. Once I get all the information collected I think I will PM you Jed, it would be wonderful to talk to someone that understands this. I had NO idea about this disease and my partner keeps telling me he hates his ears because he is always scratching his neck :rolleyes: . The ears are cute and they stay! We don't have ear infections we have that checked regularly but to anyone else you'd think he was riddled with fleas.

Yes it is MVD and his respiratory problem is becoming worse. He snores so loud he has to sleep in the loungeroom when my partner is home but he sleeps next to my bed when he is back at the mines and his breathing becomes so shallow sometimes I wake him up because I am scared he's going to stop breathing!

I have tried emailing the breeder only a couple of weeks ago and the email address bounced, I do have her phone number so I will be in contacting her tonight. I am a bit of a chicken when it comes to refunds and I love my boy dearly and even if he is breaking down I feel I have got my monies worth out of him! He is my heart and soul and everything I hoped for minus the not so great health.

[Jed]

Hi Sunnyflower - when you ring the breeder, try simply saying you thought she would like to know the dog has ..... and see where she goes from there.

Don't be accusatory or finger pointing. Simply state the facts.

If you begin nicely, there is more chance than if you begin accusing her. She may have no idea he has anything wrong with him and be happy to help once she finds out.

I don't know how knowledgable or caring she is, with the problems the dog has - but in fairness, she may not be aware.

Unfortunately too, a lot of people are breeding with scant awareness of these problems, and they either shouldn't breed or should learn everything they can about the breed.

There are breeders out there breeding healthy dogs --- and if there is a problem, they will help. Unfortunately, they are becoming fewer and fewer. One of my puppy buyers emailed me a month ago, she wanted a new dog - and she was happy with the one she bought from me (now 5) so she wanted another from me - I had to send her elsewhere - and there was hardly anywhere to send her.

The other thing to remember is that producing a pup with SM is often a matter of bad luck.

No one in the family has ever had SM, and suddenly, one of the dogs you bred develops it. There's no test, although having an MRI on the parents does tell you what their status is, but no one much was doing MRIs until very recently, and results of the test give no guarantee that a pup with SM wont be produced.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Jed

[Sunnyflower]

Hi Sunnyflower - when you ring the breeder, try simply saying you thought she would like to know the dog has ..... and see where she goes from there.

Don't be accusatory or finger pointing. Simply state the facts.

If you begin nicely, there is more chance than if you begin accusing her. She may have no idea he has anything wrong with him and be happy to help once she finds out.

I don't know how knowledgable or caring she is, with the problems the dog has - but in fairness, she may not be aware.

Unfortunately too, a lot of people are breeding with scant awareness of these problems, and they either shouldn't breed or should learn everything they can about the breed.

There are breeders out there breeding healthy dogs --- and if there is a problem, they will help. Unfortunately, they are becoming fewer and fewer. One of my puppy buyers emailed me a month ago, she wanted a new dog - and she was happy with the one she bought from me (now 5) so she wanted another from me - I had to send her elsewhere - and there was hardly anywhere to send her.

The other thing to remember is that producing a pup with SM is often a matter of bad luck.

No one in the family has ever had SM, and suddenly, one of the dogs you bred develops it. There's no test, although having an MRI on the parents does tell you what their status is, but no one much was doing MRIs until very recently, and results of the test give no guarantee that a pup with SM wont be produced.

Jed - I've spoken to the breeder and she said that his Dad only recently passed away at 12 years old simply from old age and that his Mum is still healthy at 7 years old and she has never had any health issues and has never heard from other puppies owners she has sold to. She said the parents and grand parents are Australian Champions and they have no history of any of these diseases he has. She has never heard of this disease.

No offer of support just basically wiping her name off the responsibility map. I don't feel as though she will be rushing out to test the rest of her breeding stock or dogs either.

I think you were right about how you felt she would be despite being extremely polite and politically correct.

More than anything I am so thankful this thread has been posted and I have become aware of this disease that Oscar is showing signs of, at least this way we can now go get him checked out and have it dismissed or confirmed and get him onto treatment to keep his quality of life the best we can.

I'm going to call the Cavalier Club when I get a chance and I shall PM you now Jed in regards to your friend who knows a lot of the disease. My partners friend has a friend that owns a vet in Bondi and Newtown so he is going to contact him for help in pointing us in the right direction.

We'll get Oscar down to Sydney for the scan over the next month when I am taking time off work.

[Jed]

frankly i think its a load of bull#*+#

my first bitch had 7 in her first litter and 8 in her second. they are 12 and 11 now n not a sm in the lot thats 15 pups if you cant add.

n they would have shown by now.

counting my own and those belonging to friends probably think ive known nearly 100 cavs over the past decades n never seen it in save one who certantly began to show the symptoms at age 6.

n luckily desexed n never bred from, it came from a kennel thats ho so ethical n never sells any on main register so anyone who has one descended from their progeny would have not had their LR pup desexed as per contact anyway.

as well seen many others same kennel same breeding and no sign of it as they aged n many have made it to 13 n 16 years old. so i find it hard to believe the figures stated at all. should i add, that affected dog came from a litter of 8 and never heard of any siblings developing any problems?

Ah, the 'I've never had it' excuse. You know, I was told that no wheaten terrier in Australia had ever been diagnosed with the protein wasting disease they can get. And this was right - until one was diagnosed. Just because you've never had it, doesn't mean you won't ever have a case in the future. Just because you don't know anyone whose had a case, doesn't mean you won't in the future. Only the blind dismiss the research.

Unfortunately, Sheridan, there is no way to predict whether you will get it in your lines or not either. There are now some recommendations about how to breed, but they are recommendations only, and even doing as the recommendations say do not guarantee success.

Asals pups were fine at a time when there was no test, and hardly anyone knew what SM was. I am in exactly the same position. My dogs are now 5 generations with no SM - but that doesn't mean I couldn't have a pup with SM. I've actually never seen SM - and I have no reason to lie --- I don't have any pups to sell

[Jed]

Sunnyflower - just ensure that the vet DOES know what SM is. I think you will find it cheaper to have MRI's done via the Cav club than via the vet --- I am not sure whether it is the cav club, or some breeders, but the cav club can steer you in the right direction.

Jed - I've spoken to the breeder and she said that his Dad only recently passed away at 12 years old simply from old age and that his Mum is still healthy at 7 years old and she has never had any health issues and has never heard from other puppies owners she has sold to. She said the parents and grand parents are Australian Champions and they have no history of any of these diseases he has. She has never heard of this disease.

No offer of support just basically wiping her name off the responsibility map. I don't feel as though she will be rushing out to test the rest of her breeding stock or dogs either.

So, all care and no responsibility eh? Shame really. However, it is possible that none of the ancestors have either SM or MVD - but she should have made a point of finding out all she could about all and any health problems the breed may have. Unfortunately, being Australian champions bears no correlation to their genetic health.

And I think she should refund the purchase price on receipt of a veterinary diagnosis. Just my opinion. But she probably wont. And when you have a diagnosis, you should get a letter from the vet, stating that he has SM, MVD and whatever the respiratory disease is, and sending it to her, so she will know.

IMHO, being a responsible breeder is about what you do when the excrement hits the fan, specially if it's not in the lines, as much as it is about breeding the best to the best and doing all those other things.

Sheridan, did you say something about "not in my lines"??

Edited October 27, 2010 by Jed

[asal]

frankly i think its a load of bull#*+#

my first bitch had 7 in her first litter and 8 in her second. they are 12 and 11 now n not a sm in the lot thats 15 pups if you cant add.

n they would have shown by now.

counting my own and those belonging to friends probably think ive known nearly 100 cavs over the past decades n never seen it in save one who certantly began to show the symptoms at age 6.

n luckily desexed n never bred from, it came from a kennel thats ho so ethical n never sells any on main register so anyone who has one descended from their progeny would have not had their LR pup desexed as per contact anyway.

as well seen many others same kennel same breeding and no sign of it as they aged n many have made it to 13 n 16 years old. so i find it hard to believe the figures stated at all. should i add, that affected dog came from a litter of 8 and never heard of any siblings developing any problems?

Ah, the 'I've never had it' excuse. You know, I was told that no wheaten terrier in Australia had ever been diagnosed with the protein wasting disease they can get. And this was right - until one was diagnosed. Just because you've never had it, doesn't mean you won't ever have a case in the future. Just because you don't know anyone whose had a case, doesn't mean you won't in the future. Only the blind dismiss the research.

Unfortunately, Sheridan, there is no way to predict whether you will get it in your lines or not either. There are now some recommendations about how to breed, but they are recommendations only, and even doing as the recommendations say do not guarantee success.

Asals pups were fine at a time when there was no test, and hardly anyone knew what SM was. I am in exactly the same position. My dogs are now 5 generations with no SM - but that doesn't mean I couldn't have a pup with SM. I've actually never seen SM - and I have no reason to lie --- I don't have any pups to sell

the whole sceneario is just getting too much and too scary really. things are being discovered. and if it is found in your dogs, your automaticaly "unethical"?

as if you would deliberately select for something like that, its insane. I remember the nightmare that ensued when SCID was discovered in arabian horses, hundreds , semi loads went to the doggers their only crime they had relations that had proven to be carriers.

n that ones a simple recessive that cannot express without two copies. n there is a test for it now.

still getting over the embarrassment of producing a pup whose adult teeth didnt come through straight.. how many of us have had that happen to our until then stunning show prospect.. once upon a time it was bad luck.

now if you were mug enough to have sold it. rather than kept it and your next champ becomes a pet. when someone else owns it, your unethical... since when were we guaranteeing the placement of a puppys adult teeth?? especially since they were perfect puppy teeth? its a known fact that mouths change as a puppy grows an now we are supposed to be able for foretell the future?

the flack from that was pretty upsetting from the ringside brigade telling the owner i ripped her off, gee the dog and his brother were assessed by qualified judges and she made her choices from their recommendations not mine.

still smarting over having to refund for a dog i give her for free?

it wasnt my fault the first she did buy became ill after being vaccinated and flea treated. mind u the vet dosed him with a treatment at the rate for a ten kg dog and he weighed one kilo? nnnnnnnnnnn im unethical? what about the vet? dont they take any responsibility for overdosing their patients?

the second vet who saved him, kept her pup as the bills went into the thousands, so i gave her the brother as i felt so bad for her. n still get branded unethical? somehow i bet the first bro has perfect teeth, he now belongs to the vets dad.

rant over

Edited October 27, 2010 by asal

[Dellcara]

the whole sceneario is just getting too much and too scary really. things are being discovered. and if it is found in your dogs, your automaticaly "unethical"?

asal .. you're right, it is very scarey. No matter what breeders do they can NOT guarantee that something will not go wrong.

Breeders can also not state that SM is "not in their lines" ... many will state that they have not seen SM in their dogs, and by that they mean they

do not (to the best of their knowledge) have dogs that are symptomatic. The problem here is that a dog doesn't have to be symptomatic to have SM.

There are known cases of dogs here and overeseas of dogs that have been MRI'd and they have SM but still lead normal lives.

[asal]

been through it with SCIDS. my first two stallions one was from a known SCIDS mare the other his dad was a known SCIDS carrier as was his dams sire.

soo talk about automatically tarred an feathered.

while others with unknown status families preeened themselves and told all and sundry, "our lines are clear" and the known families were decimated to the point of extinction.

yet for some curious reason carrier status somehow seemed linked to something that people were selecting for? it was never figured out what?

the the number of colts selected to be sires that turned out to be carriers was way way higher than the population average. quite strange.

n in its case long as u never put carrier to carrier it could never surface anyway.

n talk about self limiting. a scids didnt make it past 16 weeks so no such thing as an homozygus scids.

although in humans they discovered bone marrow transplants could give them a normal life. not discovered before the famous boy in the plastic bubble died unfortunately.

[asal]

and sadder for those who have ones from what they were told were free lines are discovering all these decades later. that aint necessarily so.

these people didnt get their horses scids tested, why should they. clear lines.

one lady was completely unaware that her mare was a full sister to a stallion that sired 16 scids foals in just one foal drop. amazing how few people knew it. was prattling on how that sire closed an entire stud that year, the principles were so devestated they gave up and sold em all.

never realised how few people knew why?

in my case i happened to have been there two weeks running. first visit. paddocks full of happy foals, second week not one on the place they had all been found to be homozygus and were put down. the odds against that happening would have to have been enormous considering the chances of any carrier to carrier is 25% homozygus then multiply that by 16 and you had more odds of winning lotto wouldnt u?

[asal]

n even weirder, my boy who had two chances of being a carrier if not scids himself n peg at birth had sired some 27 foals from the same n related mares n never produced one in his lifetime.

ditto for the sids carrier son. life truely is a lottery, they are long dead so i will never know if they did carry it. someone in queensland knows. because i sent samples from every one i own at my own cost to help the research being done into finding a dna marker.

they found it, they know the results for every one of my horses yet chose not only not to let me know. but what really disgusted me, the technology was sold to an american company that charges and arm and a leg for the test. and even had the patent extented so they can still keep the monopoly for a test discovered in australia yet the profits go overseas, really makes u wonder why ?

Edited October 27, 2010 by asal

[asal]

our family have actively been involved in assisting researchers in many fields knowing the value to the wider community so i am in favour of discovering tests but so many do not seem to understand the ones markers have been found for are just the tip of a gainormous iceberg.

there is soooo much more waiting to be discovered it will petrify most

as for the ongoing work on HD the results there are far from encouraging, i have friends who had spend thousands if not tens of thousands in ensuring using only the best of the best and its still turning up affected puppies... its no way as clear a path to its reduction let alone erradication as was first thought sadly

Edited October 27, 2010 by asal

[Sheridan]

Ah, the 'I've never had it' excuse. You know, I was told that no wheaten terrier in Australia had ever been diagnosed with the protein wasting disease they can get. And this was right - until one was diagnosed. Just because you've never had it, doesn't mean you won't ever have a case in the future. Just because you don't know anyone whose had a case, doesn't mean you won't in the future. Only the blind dismiss the research.

Unfortunately, Sheridan, there is no way to predict whether you will get it in your lines or not either. There are now some recommendations about how to breed, but they are recommendations only, and even doing as the recommendations say do not guarantee success.

Asals pups were fine at a time when there was no test, and hardly anyone knew what SM was. I am in exactly the same position. My dogs are now 5 generations with no SM - but that doesn't mean I couldn't have a pup with SM. I've actually never seen SM - and I have no reason to lie --- I don't have any pups to sell

But you're not denying you could get it in one of your pups unlike some (and this applies to any breed) who live in Denial Land. I don't know how many times I've read 'We don't have to test for <insert disease> because we've never had it.' It's just stupid.

[Jed]

Sheridan

But you're not denying you could get it in one of your pups unlike some (and this applies to any breed) who live in Denial Land.

Absolutely not. I think it is highly unlikely, unless I change direction or introduce new lines, that I will breed dogs with MVD because I have old heart clear dogs which are the parents and grand parents - but due to the nature of the beast, cannot guarantee it's not in the lines, and with SM, not the faintest idea.

A friend of mine bred for about 300 years. Never had PRA pre DNA tests. DNA tests are available, she tests. Lots of the dogs are positive or carriers - much hair tearing and wailing and gnashing. It was late onset PRA, and the onset was so late the dogs had died before there was any symptoms.

[Miss B]

I have just read the sypmtoms and Oscar is ALWAYS scratching around his neck and shoulder area but he has no fleas, when I walk him he does this funny little dance because he HAS to scratch around his shoulders, I always thought it was because of the harness and over the past 12 months I have noticed if he gets picked up he yelps. There is no damage or pain to that area if you feel it he just yelps for what we thought was no apparent reason despite the vet feeling him over. Do you think he could possibly have this disease?

My boy had similar symptoms. He would frequently cry as he scratched at his head and neck (he didn't have fleas). He would shy away if you went to pat him on the head, and yelp when you picked him up. Took him to the specialist for an MRI scan, he doesn't have syringomyelia but he does have Caudal Occipital Malformation Syndrome. He is on daily corticosteroids, and will probably remain on the medication for life.

[Sunnyflower]

I have just read the sypmtoms and Oscar is ALWAYS scratching around his neck and shoulder area but he has no fleas, when I walk him he does this funny little dance because he HAS to scratch around his shoulders, I always thought it was because of the harness and over the past 12 months I have noticed if he gets picked up he yelps. There is no damage or pain to that area if you feel it he just yelps for what we thought was no apparent reason despite the vet feeling him over. Do you think he could possibly have this disease?

My boy had similar symptoms. He would frequently cry as he scratched at his head and neck (he didn't have fleas). He would shy away if you went to pat him on the head, and yelp when you picked him up. Took him to the specialist for an MRI scan, he doesn't have syringomyelia but he does have Caudal Occipital Malformation Syndrome. He is on daily corticosteroids, and will probably remain on the medication for life.

Thank you for that information Miss B. There is something definitely wrong with my boy and after the help from Jed I spoke to our vet and they agreed with what Jed said and I also watched videos and Oscar displays the exact same symptoms. Someone has said that maybe all he needs to see is a chiro, I will bring this up with the vet we go to see that has extensive knowledge of this disease but I honestly don't believe that is what it is.

Oscar displays 5 - 6 symptoms (need to count) and has for some time, I just had no idea. Thankfully my family are going to help me with his vet costs.

[Miss B]

Thank you for that information Miss B. There is something definitely wrong with my boy and after the help from Jed I spoke to our vet and they agreed with what Jed said and I also watched videos and Oscar displays the exact same symptoms. Someone has said that maybe all he needs to see is a chiro, I will bring this up with the vet we go to see that has extensive knowledge of this disease but I honestly don't believe that is what it is.

Oscar displays 5 - 6 symptoms (need to count) and has for some time, I just had no idea. Thankfully my family are going to help me with his vet costs.

Good luck, let us know how your little man goes.

[Jed]

Yep, Sunnyflower, a GOOD chiro is a very good idea. I had a dog doing all that - was cured by a chiro visit. Lucky she wasnt a Cavalier!!

Sunnyflower, ensure that you send copied material to the breeder so she can't say she doesn't know.

Miss B, have you spoken to your breeder about your boy?

[Sunnyflower]

Thank you for that information Miss B. There is something definitely wrong with my boy and after the help from Jed I spoke to our vet and they agreed with what Jed said and I also watched videos and Oscar displays the exact same symptoms. Someone has said that maybe all he needs to see is a chiro, I will bring this up with the vet we go to see that has extensive knowledge of this disease but I honestly don't believe that is what it is.

Oscar displays 5 - 6 symptoms (need to count) and has for some time, I just had no idea. Thankfully my family are going to help me with his vet costs.

Good luck, let us know how your little man goes.

Thank you Miss B, I'll be sure to keep you guys updated.

Yep, Sunnyflower, a GOOD chiro is a very good idea. I had a dog doing all that - was cured by a chiro visit. Lucky she wasnt a Cavalier!!

Sunnyflower, ensure that you send copied material to the breeder so she can't say she doesn't know.

Miss B, have you spoken to your breeder about your boy?

I had to drop the rescue girl I've got off to the vets today and asked their thoughts and opinions. They said they actually have a Cav they have been treating for quite some time that has SM and many other diseases and he was displaying the exact same symptoms. I had to keep it short to get to work but I will be speaking with the vet directly who 12 months ago finished her neurological studies.

They said they want to bring him in and do xrays and if they still feel it's that they will give me a referal to a neuro specialist in Sydney.

I will ensure to send her copies of everything to her! She is failing to reply to my emails now that I asked where she got the dogs from. I want to inform the kennel she got her dogs from that she is breeding because clearly unlike stated and price paid he's not registered! My own fault, I should have got the papers but I felt it was of no importance and it still isn't of importance but I would like to inform whoever she got her 'Australian Champions' from that she is breeding them for a buck!

Edited October 27, 2010 by Sunnyflower

[Jed]

Sunnyflower, don't forge to check up on the (maybe) cheaper MRI in Sydney.

I will ensure to send her copies of everything to her! She is failing to reply to my emails now that I asked where she got the dogs from. I want to inform the kennel she got her dogs from that she is breeding because clearly unlike stated and price paid he's not registered! My own fault, I should have got the papers but I felt it was of no importance and it still isn't of importance but I would like to inform whoever she got her 'Australian Champions' from that she is breeding them for a buck!

Not your fault at all. It was her responsibility to register ALL pups from the litter. The fact that he is not registered says a lot about her ethics though. Papers may seem unimportant to a pet owner, but it is still the responsibility of the breeder to register the pup.