Baltimore Police Dog Training Video

[B-Q]

Just saw this posted on another forum I'm a member of.

I find it very disturbing. Like watching an abuse video.

That poor, poor confused dog.

[Erny]

I don't like it either - but because I don't know the circumstances behind it, I feel I have little choice other than to reserve my judgement on it. I heard in the background the guy instructing the handler say "I don't like doing this but because ....." and then it chopped off. I would really like to know what the reasoning was behind this. Was it a serious issue one step behind euthanasia? What other methods had already been tried and failed (for what issue)? I don't know the answers to any of these questions. Doesn't make me like it any more and from only what I could see by that video clip, I felt it was wrong - I didn't see any huge crime that the dog was committing (errors, yes) but then that too is unclear from the video footage. But still leaves me with not being able to know if it was necessary and better than any remaining alternative. Also doesn't show us if there was any value gained by it.

:D I disagree....there is no reasonable reason for that kind of treatment of a dog in training, the guy wasn't achieving anything, looked like he was making the situation worse.

Yes - I agree. I said I didn't like it. Do admit from my post it could read as though I'm sitting on the fence. Didn't intend to, but I would like to know what the point of it was and why that particular 'move' (won't call it "technique") was used and not something else. It was done lousy anyway and from what could be seen from the footage, didn't have any good effect in any hurry.

[Cosmolo]

I don't particularly care what the supposed purpose was- i can't think of any explanation that would in any way justify that kind of abuse.

[aussielover]

I too, cannot understand what they were trying to achieve?

I also do not understand why they repeated it so many times?

If it wasn't having the desired effect on the dog ie reducing or stoppping the behaviour- why perservere with it?

what was the dog actually doing wrong?

[Jeff Jones]

what was the dog actually doing wrong?

It was mouthing the handlers arm. You can see the dog doing it several times throughout the video.

[JulesP]

It looks like the dog is trying to get someone outside of the video shot. When the handler holds the dog back it mouths him.

It isn't pleasant to watch but I am thinking the guy is more traumatized by it then the dog.

[Jeff Jones]

It looks like the dog is trying to get someone outside of the video shot. When the handler holds the dog back it mouths him.

It isn't pleasant to watch but I am thinking the guy is more traumatized by it then the dog.

You can see the dog mouth the handlers arm in the first 4 seconds of the video. It is something that can be fixed quite easily and by using a lot less effort than what the handler is using / being told to use.

[Dova]

I couldn't watch it all, about 30 seconds was enough for me .

[Erny]

It looks like the dog is trying to get someone outside of the video shot. When the handler holds the dog back it mouths him.

It isn't pleasant to watch but I am thinking the guy is more traumatized by it then the dog.

You can see the dog mouth the handlers arm in the first 4 seconds of the video. It is something that can be fixed quite easily and by using a lot less effort than what the handler is using / being told to use.

Yeah - I thought handler mouthing at first too. But then it seemed the dog 'got it' for so much as shrill whining at whatever was out of view-finder shot. Not a defence to the so called "method". Just still puzzling on what the dog was supposedly doing wrong. I was quite surprised to see the dog hardly worried about the treatment, once all was said and done. Seems it was ineffective one way or the other (dog did seem to ease up on the shrill whining towards end of footage, but who knows why .... could have been that the environment changed - seemed to me the dog didn't really take any or much learning on board), although I can't imagine it helping bonds between handler and dog. And one way or the other, the manoeuvres were quite violent. IMO, just for the way it was repeatedly administrated and with such discord, it gave the impression of the handler being unstable and could well imagine the dog perceiving that as well.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Erny

[Rach...]

I couldn't watch it all I found it too disturbing, isn't a police officer and his dog supposed to be a team? That dog won't want to protect him if he needs it

[Donegal]

It looks like the dog is trying to get someone outside of the video shot. When the handler holds the dog back it mouths him.

It isn't pleasant to watch but I am thinking the guy is more traumatized by it then the dog.

You can see the dog mouth the handlers arm in the first 4 seconds of the video. It is something that can be fixed quite easily and by using a lot less effort than what the handler is using / being told to use.

Saying perhaps that dog is prone to turning back on the handler and biting him when the dog gets ramped up, the other guy in the video instructing says "hold him down, don't let him win", so it looks like an alpha roll type thing to teach the dog that attacking the handler will result in the dog being overpowered and will loose the battle.

So in those circumstances as everyone is saying what's happening in the video is wrong, then how do you fix it "easily" Jeff, can you give us some insight how the situation should be handled correctly???

[Chezy]

that is quite upsetting to watch , the sound sent my little rescue girl under the bed scared [she has been bashed ] :D

[moosmum]

It looks like the dog is trying to get someone outside of the video shot. When the handler holds the dog back it mouths him.

It isn't pleasant to watch but I am thinking the guy is more traumatized by it then the dog.

You can see the dog mouth the handlers arm in the first 4 seconds of the video. It is something that can be fixed quite easily and by using a lot less effort than what the handler is using / being told to use.

Saying perhaps that dog is prone to turning back on the handler and biting him when the dog gets ramped up, the other guy in the video instructing says "hold him down, don't let him win", so it looks like an alpha roll type thing to teach the dog that attacking the handler will result in the dog being overpowered and will loose the battle.

So in those circumstances as everyone is saying what's happening in the video is wrong, then how do you fix it "easily" Jeff, can you give us some insight how the situation should be handled correctly???

IMO the dog the is not listening,that should be being addressed 1st in this situation.

Time out and no action till he settles and focuses on his handler.

I would treat the mouthing as a separate issue that should have been addressed before putting the dog in that situation.

I don't know how the security types would go about it to keep the bite,yet reserve it for work,but with our pups if they mouth I will give them a lot more than they want and don't let them get away from it too easily.If that doesn't work quickly I will pull them back off my hand by the scruff (not roughly) and growl in their face.

Easily understood.

Edited to appologise for this also,not addressed to me but I wanted to see some alternative even if its not the best.

Would be interested to hear you Jeff.

Edited October 17, 2010 by moosmum

[Kavik]

I would think that mouthing would be frustration and/or redirection. Not sure how smashing the dog is going to help Certainly not going to help their relationship.

[Erny]

So in those circumstances as everyone is saying what's happening in the video is wrong, then how do you fix it "easily" Jeff, can you give us some insight how the situation should be handled correctly???

That would depend on numerous factors, Donegal. How the dog was trained in the first place (too much too fast ???); what and how much the dog receives by way of drive satisfaction and so on. If the historical training can be faulted, then IMO that needs to be re-addressed first, before addressing the actual mouthing which does seem to be re-direction out of frustration. There is so much assumption in the watching of that video footage, but I saw a dog that was not balanced and I do strongly suspect that to be the result of training fault. So rather than singling out the mouthing, I'd be inclined to back up with the training a bit. Making sure the dog received drive satisfaction and making sure the dog knew the rules of the game to achieve drive satisfaction would be one of the things I'd like to investigate. If all checked out and/or was re-addressed and fixed, but the re-direction continued, I'd probably use any one of "correct" and/or "quit the dog". This would depend on the dog and how it responded to one or the other.

Don't know if Jeff would agree with me and he does have far more experience than I in the training of protection work (of which my experience is fairly close to nothing other than observation and a smidge of practical), so my apologies to him for stepping in here as I see your question, Donegal, was addressed to him.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Erny

[Jeff Jones]

So in those circumstances as everyone is saying what's happening in the video is wrong, then how do you fix it "easily" Jeff, can you give us some insight how the situation should be handled correctly???

That would depend on numerous factors, Donegal. How the dog was trained in the first place (too much too fast ???); what and how much the dog receives by way of drive satisfaction and so on. If the historical training can be faulted, then IMO that needs to be re-addressed first, before addressing the actual mouthing which does seem to be re-direction out of frustration. There is so much assumption in the watching of that video footage, but I saw a dog that was not balanced and I do strongly suspect that to be the result of training fault. So rather than singling out the mouthing, I'd be inclined to back up with the training a bit. Making sure the dog received drive satisfaction and making sure the dog knew the rules of the game to achieve drive satisfaction would be one of the things I'd like to investigate. If all checked out and/or was re-addressed and fixed, but the re-direction continued, I'd probably use any one of "correct" and/or "quit the dog". This would depend on the dog and how it responded to one or the other.

Don't know if Jeff would agree with me and he does have far more experience than I in the training of protection work (of which my experience is fairly close to nothing other than observation and a smidge of practical), so my apologies to him for stepping in here as I see your question, Donegal, was addressed to him.

Great post Erny. I have no problem with you stepping in. I would do exactly as you have said. Redirected aggression occurs because a dog is over stimulated, you need to take the training process back to step one and slowly build the dogs confidence in working around the trigger. The handler should not be attempting to undertake training with the dog in such an aroused state. I would have ended the training session with the dog after it first mouthed my arm.

ETA:

Saying perhaps that dog is prone to turning back on the handler and biting him when the dog gets ramped up, the other guy in the video instructing says "hold him down, don't let him win", so it looks like an alpha roll type thing to teach the dog that attacking the handler will result in the dog being overpowered and will loose the battle.

The problem is the handler lacks the experience, knowledge and competence in completing an effective correction / alpha roll to the dog. The trainer who is instructing the handler has put him in a dangerous situation with a dog that is known to redirect its aggression. This is not a smart training choice and not one I would use on a dog in such a high state of arousal.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Jeff Jones

[Donegal]

So in those circumstances as everyone is saying what's happening in the video is wrong, then how do you fix it "easily" Jeff, can you give us some insight how the situation should be handled correctly???

That would depend on numerous factors, Donegal. How the dog was trained in the first place (too much too fast ???); what and how much the dog receives by way of drive satisfaction and so on. If the historical training can be faulted, then IMO that needs to be re-addressed first, before addressing the actual mouthing which does seem to be re-direction out of frustration. There is so much assumption in the watching of that video footage, but I saw a dog that was not balanced and I do strongly suspect that to be the result of training fault. So rather than singling out the mouthing, I'd be inclined to back up with the training a bit. Making sure the dog received drive satisfaction and making sure the dog knew the rules of the game to achieve drive satisfaction would be one of the things I'd like to investigate. If all checked out and/or was re-addressed and fixed, but the re-direction continued, I'd probably use any one of "correct" and/or "quit the dog". This would depend on the dog and how it responded to one or the other.

Don't know if Jeff would agree with me and he does have far more experience than I in the training of protection work (of which my experience is fairly close to nothing other than observation and a smidge of practical), so my apologies to him for stepping in here as I see your question, Donegal, was addressed to him.

Great post Erny. I have no problem with you stepping in. I would do exactly as you have said. Redirected aggression occurs because a dog is over stimulated, you need to take the training process back to step one and slowly build the dogs confidence in working around the trigger. The handler should not be attempting to undertake training with the dog in such an aroused state. I would have ended the training session with the dog after it first mouthed my arm.

ETA:

Saying perhaps that dog is prone to turning back on the handler and biting him when the dog gets ramped up, the other guy in the video instructing says "hold him down, don't let him win", so it looks like an alpha roll type thing to teach the dog that attacking the handler will result in the dog being overpowered and will loose the battle.

The problem is the handler lacks the experience, knowledge and competence in completing an effective correction / alpha roll to the dog. The trainer who is instructing the handler has put him in a dangerous situation with a dog that is known to redirect its aggression. This is not a smart training choice and not one I would use on a dog in such a high state of arousal.

Thanks Jeff and Erny. So basically when a dog is behaving in that manner it could be the result of training errors along the way and the correct way to deal with it is not correcting the symptom (mouthing) but retraining earlier stages that have not been done effectively. So really, the dog in the video is not trained properly up to the right level for the work that the guys need from him???

[corvus]

Maybe I'm seeing this all wrong, but to me it doesn't look like the "correction" is for the mouthing. It looks like it's for trying to go at something it is presumably not meant to want to go at. It also looks like the only thing throwing the dog on the ground does is make it intensely frustrated after a while. I am put in mind of a mouthy, noisy puppy at Erik's puppy class that was put in "time out" for 20 seconds everytime she was noisy. She wasn't able to make an association between her noise and getting dragged away from everyone and grew increasingly frustrated. It was sad to watch. Eventually she shut up haphazardly and the trainer declared the method had worked once again. I think frustration is absolutely aversive to an animal. Just because it doesn't suppress behaviour doesn't mean it's not aversive. Extinction bursts can be horrendous.

It looks to me that they are basically trying to punish behaviour related to a state of arousal that is the root of the problem? Punishment might lower arousal to the point where the dog is able to learn again, but I don't know that I'd count what that guy was doing as punishment. Didn't seem to lower arousal to me, let alone suppress behaviour.

[huski]

Not to get too OT, but just following on from your post Corvus, I don't think frustration alone is a bad thing. I also think frustration can build drive if it's used properly.

[Erny]

Thanks Jeff and Erny. So basically when a dog is behaving in that manner it could be the result of training errors along the way and the correct way to deal with it is not correcting the symptom (mouthing) but retraining earlier stages that have not been done effectively. So really, the dog in the video is not trained properly up to the right level for the work that the guys need from him???

Go back to my earlier (first one or two posts) - you'll see there that I said there are too many assumptions that need to be made due to the lack of information from that video footage. So yes .... you could guess on and on about why the dog is behaving as he is and at what. What I've suggested and why is merely my suggestive thoughts based on assumption of what I think could have occurred.