Answer From Another Thread.

[Steve]

Its only depressing because of the way you are looking at it.

The things we are discussing here are not new - there are environment and planning laws in every single shire and there always has been.

So far its been reasonably fair and council have shown little interest in enforcing them unless they are alerted to you.

The intent of this thread wasnt to scare you or depress anyone it was to try and explain why I don't support the things that are being done to stop puppy farms.

Its not that I don't support finding ways to stop puppy farms. I just think these ways are going to have unintended consequences which will impact on the good guys more than the bad guys.

I believe that by making it hard for people to get these DAs by making their lives hell when they do what is required and apply for a DA that it will deter people from applying and ensure that more not less puppy farmers do what ever they can to avoid detection. We want to know where they are and that they are being monitored and we cant do that if we scare them off underground. If you are going to make someone spend 250,000 as the lady in the previous email did in order to be able to breed 5 dogs then she may as well breed 20 and get a return for the money she invested. Which she does.

In the beginning you had a breeder who just wanted to breed 5 dogs but when she applied you make her life hell and her family attacked and abused because she said she wanted to breed dogs on her property as she is required to do in Wellington shire. You push until she either gives up and breeds em anyway finding ways to sell them where no one knows where they come from or she says if I have to do this Im going for broke and breeds heaps more than she ever originally intended in order to pay for her sheds and concrete and penning. How has this helped ? She owns a toy breed and having 5 fertile bitches and a litter of puppies now on and then on 160 acres wasn't going to be a problem. Why would anyone do that to themselves? Every puppy farmer - or every breeder for that matter watching what is going on when anyone applies would be brave indeed to do the right thing and apply in my opinion.

Its not very politically correct to admit out loud that you know that the vast majority of registered breeders breach their shire local environmental laws and its something we don't often talk about but we do and anyone who breeds dogs reading this knows it - so do local councils and so do the CCs.For the record - I don't I applied for a DA before I moved in by the way.

Some do it deliberately others do it without realising it.

Im not against the whole stamp out puppy farmers thing or Oscars law and the rally.I just don't agree that pushing for new laws or RSPCA increased powers or making it uncomfortable for people to apply for a DA is the answer to get the desired result without it affecting registered breeders too. I think breeders who are backing this need to know the consequences but I also think that rescue need to know that these things will affect them too. You need the same kind of DAs to rescue a dog too.

Look.

http://deathrowpets.wordpress.com/2010/08/...-rescue-groups/

[toy dog]

thanks steve for your information and answering me on some of my silly questions but if you don't ask you don't find out.

[toy dog]

All this is so depressing. It seems to me that anyone who doesn't breed on a large scale are screwed. That's how it reads. I have letters here and no idea where to send them, any suggestions?

i agree it is depressing all that we can do really is write letters, i am compiling some addresses for you. if they want to bring in these new laws what can we do, we have to cop it sweet.

i am busy compiling a letter to the polies about our side of things, my letters have been noticed by a few councillors so i am hoping that others will notice too. i still don't think anyone is explaining our side of things its all from the pet owning public which is fine but we need to stick up for ourselves too.

[Steve]

The basic message is - if you push for new laws to control puppy farmers those laws will also apply to you. As a breeder and as a rescue.

If you are O.K. about complying with those laws which are already in place via environment and planning as well as DPI and you are O.K. about having new laws which you will need to comply with as well as them then go ahead and continue the call for tougher laws and tighter regulation.

BUT the very people you are saying you want shut down are already complying with these laws and will also simply do what ever they need to do to comply with any new laws.

Those puppy farmers who are not complying can already be shut down just as you can be if you are not complying. Being a registered breeder or a private rescue group and complying with DPI requirements for breeding dogs doesn't mean you are complying with environment and planning laws for how you can use your land. If you are rescuing dogs you also should already have applied for these Development applications to run a business from your residence via your planning department.

There is no doubt there is a problem - which needs to be addressed and solutions found if we are to ensure dogs don't suffer but traditionally new laws and tougher enforcement haven't worked.

Based on this and the potential for unintended consequences for those who are not doing the wrong thing and the fact that I believe it gives more power to a quasi police force I think its going to take us thinking differently and working together to turn it around.

If ever we stop banging around and telling the world about how we are superior to anyone else breeding dogs regardless of what group we belong to and stop just following on like sheep because we think its them and not us that will be done in the quicker we can do something on a positive level to stop dogs suffering.

All this energy taken up on negative crap will get us no where.

[Steve]

So what is your side of things toydogs ? What will you write in your letter?

[asal]

Still - its not a situation where you need to get dogsvic standing on this because its already the law. It has been the law for ever and its just never been policed much. Regsitered breders thought environment and planning laws didn't affect them. They do.

Stand back from this and look at what is being said. Animal lib has been calling for councils to do their job and police current laws. Oscars law is calling for tougher laws .Pollies on both sides have said we will make tougher laws. Tougher laws even if they are nly about who will police current laws will impact on you more than they will commercial puppy farmers because they already have their permits and comply with the laws. Sure there are some who breed out the back of the boonies in rotten conditions but they are already breaking the current laws - they can easily shut them down - just as they can you if they wanted to.

i want to know what they are going to do about it , what are they doing exactly? have they done anything at all. i want their answer to this. and why aren't they doing anything. or if they have done something what is it they've done. this is what the members should be asking of them, afterall we pay them to stand up for us and as far as i can see here in this thread they aren't doing it.

oscarslaw are calling for a ban on sales on petshops and shut down farms, they keep on saying it i can paste from fb page if you like the oscarslaws fb page.

RSPCA are calling for tougher laws and polies are delivering as far as they are concerned. people are saying on their FB pages are you listening guys, we want to shut down farms we don't want any more laws. we want oscarslaw which says banning of sales, shut down farms. they also say starting a real campaign about pet ownership and i got into this further and it said desexing pets.

this is what im saying, farms are legal and already conform to all laws so it doesn't affect them. people are asking for these farms to close but instead polies are just putting more laws up, is it what the public want? no. is it what anyone wants no, its what RSPCA want and what by the looks of it they are going to get despite many calling for something completely different.

Perhaps a better question is what should we be doing about it. Not pushing for new laws which will expose the fact that most registered breeders are in breach of local laws ?

they are calling for tougher laws and any new laws affect any one who breeds not just one tiny group and thats what we have been trying to say.

I sat at the roundatable conference and Im promising you they are after anyone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions. What is sub standard conditions? Conditions which don't comply with local environment laws and mandatory codes. That's you. Oscar law may say only commercial breeders but this is Australia and you cant make laws for them and not us.

exactly or EXACTLY

I just still cant believe how gullable everyone seems to be.

if nothing else what happened to Judy Guard should have at least woken more people up to the fact that the dogs welfare IS NOT ON THE RADAR;

eliminating ANKC members is.

gee folks,, theyve sent the full armour of the law after her. for what?

an 'accidntental' (my foot it was) inclusion in one of the new laws dog showis backed? in their hunt for those tail docking. n that just 'slipped in" about debarking?

yet a dog bred in and debarked in nsw can be shown in vic, and its not going to get the owner charged. but a dog born in vic debarked in nsw can get you 42 convictions for 'exhibiting' . n the first one spotted is put down by the discovering vet?

n the very prosecutors do what? debark, and you can show a dog bred in vic n debarked by their standards in vic and not be breaking the law, if thats not insane what is?

get your heads around the facts.

this is a witch hunt and folks.....your the witches.

Edited October 16, 2010 by asal

[Steve]

All this is so depressing. It seems to me that anyone who doesn't breed on a large scale are screwed. That's how it reads. I have letters here and no idea where to send them, any suggestions?

What do your letters say?

[asal]

sorry steve, apologies.

but it just sends me nuts. sooo many still in favour of MORE laws in the quest to control 'puppy farmers' n the silence over asking for something as straightforward as a law surely despeartely needed, giving victums of the very power who will be 'enforcing them' n has already rolled over such as judy to have an avenue of appeal instead of having to endure the juggernaut of all their fees if your lucky and they cant find a chargable offence or the tens of thousands, nay hundred of thousands, of legal fees if they force u to court like they did with Ruth Dalton.

just short of 300,000 in just the legal fees for them shooting her cattle.... like they never fed em even a bucket of feed. yet kept a group of men on 'standby' n pay waiting t for the signal to move in in bury them soon as they were shot, they were on standby for nearly a week.

as one lady pointed out, the fees for the prosecution of the guy who killed her sister didnt amount to that? what is going on?

why does no one, not even the polies twig, something is seriously wrong when ONE and ONE organisation only is exempt from accountablity or appeal?

what happened to oscar was apalling,,, n now there is a push for his law.. but still no push nor thread even about making the rspca accountable or appeal avenue.

why is human suffering ignored? victums of the rspca are just as helpless as oscar. do dog people really dispise their own this much? that what it seems anyway

Edited October 16, 2010 by asal

[toy dog]

So what is your side of things toydogs ? What will you write in your letter?

basically what is said on DOL pedigree dogs versus DD's. try and shorten it though. not make it so long so they will at least read a bit of it. if its too long they tend to skim over. just sticking up for the pedigree dog. in my own words ofcourse from my perspective of 26 years in the dogworld.

superior? well if you compare a person who only breeds their cross bred mutts for profit not taking into account health, pedigrees, bloodlines, type or selectively breeding, who owns dog for the love of them not just for the love of the almight $, who is the better? who is in it for the welfare? i just spend my time explaining the difference if i can.

i explain why its not good to breed up crosses with no health checks and then pass them off to the consumer who in the long run can get disillusioned with the crosses health problems and grooming requirements of a non-shedding coat that are not explained to them at a petshop rather than going to a breeder who would explain everythin and be concerned for the welfare of that dog for life in some cases, much like we do our family, just explaining what some breeders do and have done for generations.

what not right???

ETA: i also explain that having new "tougher" laws to include all of us is not the answer.

i really think if the VCA with the help of its members figures out ways to control the puppy farmer within our membership then there is no need for a govt to control our members, VCA could do it somehow.

Edited October 16, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

sorry steve, apologies.

but it just sends me nuts. sooo many still in favour of MORE laws in the quest to control 'puppy farmers' n the silence over asking for something as straightforward as a law surely despeartely needed, giving victums of the very power who will be 'enforcing them' n has already rolled over such as judy to have an avenue of appeal instead of having to endure the juggernaut of all their fees if your lucky and they cant find a chargable offence or the tens of thousands, nay hundred of thousands, of legal fees if they force u to court like they did with Ruth Dalton.

just short of 300,000 in just the legal fees for them shooting her cattle.... like they never fed em even a bucket of feed. yet kept a group of men on 'standby' n pay waiting t for the signal to move in in bury them soon as they were shot, they were on standby for nearly a week.

as one lady pointed out, the fees for the prosecution of the guy who killed her sister didnt amount to that? what is going on?

why does no one, not even the polies twig, something is seriously wrong when ONE and ONE organisation only is exempt from accountablity or appeal?

what happened to oscar was apalling,,, n now there is a push for his law.. but still no push nor thread even about making the rspca accountable or appeal avenue.

why is human suffering ignored? victums of the rspca are just as helpless as oscar. do dog people really dispise their own this much? that what it seems anyway

i was about to ask, do you mean RSPCA? then you added to your post about RSPCA below your question.

[toy dog]

[email protected]

1 Treasury Place

East Melbourne VIC 3002

Tel: (03) 9651 5000

Fax: (03) 9651 5054

And the Leader of the Liberal Party Ted Baillieu

[email protected]

Phone: (03) 9651 8512

Fax: (03) 9651 8426

Office of the Leader of the Opposition,

Parliament House,

Spring Street,

East Melbourne 3002

[toy dog]

All this is so depressing. It seems to me that anyone who doesn't breed on a large scale are screwed. That's how it reads. I have letters here and no idea where to send them, any suggestions?

This is where all the puppy farms are mostly in Victoria just incase you didn't know. i've written numerous letters myself to the councillors about the benefits of our pedigrees. some have listened some have argued the point about why we still need puppy farms. watch for the 5th councillor down. you get a lecture about why farming of farm livestock is similar to intensive farming of dogs and there is no difference. lol and sorry the 6th one down, he has a habit of making fun of people, bit strange that one. lol 8th one down, he is just a little bit more intelligent than the rest he's been educated a little bit about pedigree dogs that one - so he at least knows.

Scott Rosetti

c/o 70 Foster St

SALE 3850

Mobile: 0427 052 394

[email protected]

Cr Peter Cleary, Deputy Mayor

c/o 70 Foster St SALE 3850

Phone (H): 5145 5590

Mobile: 0408 317 308

[email protected]

Cr Jeff Amos

22 Buckley Street

YARRAM 3971

Phone (H): 5182 5853

Mobile: 0429 832 657

[email protected]

Cr Gregg Cook

P.O Box 124

MAFFRA 3860

Mobile: 0427 052 383

[email protected]

Cr Jane Hildebrant

488 Boundary Rd

BRIAGOLONG 3860

Mobile: 0427 052 385

[email protected]

Cr Malcolm Hole

51 Temple Street

HEYFIELD 3858

Phone: (H): 5148 2493

Mobile: 0408 541 746

[email protected]

Cr Leo O'Brien

25 Desailly St

SALE 3850

Phone: (H): 5144 2958

Mobile: 0427 052 378

[email protected]

Cr Darren McCubbin

18 Harpley Court

LONGFORD 3851

Phone (H): 5149 7021

Mobile: 0458 006 486

[email protected]

Cr Beth Ripper

4 Merrick Street

STRATFORD 3862

Phone (H): 5145 6094

Mobile: 0448 031 929

[email protected]

Edited October 16, 2010 by toy dog

[Steve]

Then if thats what your letters will say . I'm sorry I think you're wasting your time.

Victoria only has a very small percentage of puppy farms in comparison to other states.You think there are more because of the pressure from animal lib Victoria.

[toy dog]

Then if thats what your letters will say . I'm sorry I think you're wasting your time.

Victoria only has a very small percentage of puppy farms in comparison to other states.You think there are more because of the pressure from animal lib Victoria.

nah, i was answering Natsu Chan who was also from Vic. what i meant was that in Victoria most of the farms are in one concentrated area and that is in wellington shire, they come from all over to go there. and i dont' know my stuff from animal lib we were thrashing it out with most of them way before animal lib people were there to publisise it all.

i don't doubt for a second that there are more puppy farms elsewhere in other states. i mean NSW and indeed other states might have a larger area than Victoria. one of the farms in that bunch that i was talking about is the largest in Australia.

thats the problem with some reg breeders i feel as you said in your original statement, most feel they don't need to advertise the pedigree dog they aren't concerned most of them just look after themselves which is all good and well, meanwhile we are all getting shafted as a group.

Edited October 16, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

im sorry its like this what i am getting from this thread is:

its a waste of time to rally for what you believe in. no one listens anyway.

its a waste of time writing in letters to polies and councils. no one listens anyway.

that doesn't leave much avenues of action?????

what do we do, no one has the answer no one is answering us on this, a couple of people asked what is the next step then?

what is the next step Steve? i mean fine we join up to MDBA, and i see alot are already members, so then what do we do after that?

all i know is, one person at a time i am educating the best way i know how. and i have written letters and put in what i said i did and i got numerous responses from council. apparently they hadn't bothered to answer anyone else, i think it is because i took the time to write down everything and explain it in detail without being rude or cheeky or nasty. being polite and giving them respect and asking for respect.

so i feel in a small way i am helping to change outlooks little by little, i not only do that with writing letters i talk to many members of the public thru my website, through the breed club (assistant sec), through my workplace, they go and tell other people.

the rally has done this, it has opened peoples eyes up to puppy farms and petshops. for example, one of my workmates has never owned a dog, wants to get one (british bulldog though) and she was telling another workmate don't go to a petshops because the pups are from farms. i said, where did you learn this? she goes from facebook and oscarslaw. so the word is getting out the public are getting more educated. they aren't falling for petshops slogans now, petshops are really worried so are putting up on their shops, we support oscarslaw our pups are from family breeders. little do they know that people now know exactly what that is, people that have failed to get their dogs desexed making a quick buck sending their pups to the petshops so they are saying this explanation is still not good still bad.

so there you have it, the media has the power to educate, i mean VCA has 10,000 plus members wouldnt' it be great if those 10,000 members did something positive just 5 mins a day and helped to spread the word about what we really do for the dog? its in our hands.

i mean i might be living on cloud 9 somewhere, maybe its a pipedream these days.....I just wish i could step back in time, to a time that was good there werent so many restricting laws, when the pedigree was more valued, there was no such thing as a DD. there was no such thing as these large battery hen puppy farms. the cross bred dog was just that and cost all of $5.

think i'd pick the year 1979

JMHO

Edited October 16, 2010 by toy dog

[asal]

toy dog, i dont have any ideas anymore. i drafted up a letter (umm amend that to quite a few over the last decade) and sent it to every politician listed. n what did i get back?

thanked me for my input, yes. then advised me as my address was not in their electorate sorry but cant help. to please contact the polie in my electorate.

soo from that i gather i you expect any results we need to have as many people as possible in as many electorates write . because it sure came back to me that, not in their electorate. in to the bin it goes.

as for my own area poli?

thanked me kindly for the input..... n silence.

good luck folks

they genuflect to the greenies. but what do the greenies do to get the desired response, is the question?

Edited October 16, 2010 by asal

[asal]

my suspicion is rallys big enough to attract the tv and papers to headline it.

[Natsu chan]

Steve my letters are about the fact that we don't need more laws nor more powers for the RSPCA (they have plenty to enable them to do some thing about dogs being kept in poor conditions such as Leo). And that what we really need is more accountability from the RSPCA which includes some sort of independent complains board. Also that the planning laws etc need to be tweaked to allow breeders some leeway with regards to whelping bitches inside since this is considered best practise and is backed up by research from the QLD uni. The laws will go through clearly but we can push for tweaking them.

I don't think we can keep beating the dead horse the way we are and as Asal says we are all backyard breeders really.

Much better to put more energy into education for the general public and for dog owners alike.

[Steve]

When Pacers was working with people after the bushfires we had to help puppy farmers as well as any dog owner or breeder and the numbers of puppy farmers around Bendigo,Shepparton and Albury

blew me away. Some of these breeders are CC registered and sell off their older dogs to an agent who travels around their farms to "help them" and take their old breeding dogs off their hands.

These dogs are sold off as "rescue dogs " as breeding pairs, or already pregnant or entire.A breeding pair of Chi's went out to a new home where the owner was told they would have a bonus of new puppies to help cover the expense of the purchase with in a week or two.

A couple of these breeders had state of the art kennels which housed 300 plus dogs others were breeding them in old barns.

Last month we had a puppy farmer who lives in Victoria who applied to join the MDBA. When we checked em out to see if they were eligible to get in - They own over 200 dogs and breed under 5 different prefixes.They are members of NSW and Victoria CC and use different addresses and different names.They have 5 different websites and breed their dogs in a disused shearing shed. You would hear their name and think they were the antz pantz because of their wins in the ring.

Nothing Vic dogs or government do will stop people finding ways around things if they want to especially when money is in the mix.

Bring in regs to stop people from breeding every season and all they did was register extra girls in their litter..A well known respected breeder offered me papers and no dogs with them for $500 each so I could buy BYB puppies of my breed from the papers and ring the paper work in to get registered puppy prices. This also allows them to breed every litter and simply use different papers.

New regs to stop people in breeding wont stop people in breeding - end result is that the pedigree data base is compromised. One registered breeder around here picks up puppies from other registered breeders and drops them off in pet shops without the real breeder or the real address of where they are being bred ever being known.

The stuff breeders are doing now since the new regs on the gold coast to avoid doing what they are supposed to do to comply is truly clever and breeders everywhere have dogs listed in their kids names , in different states, in different shires.

Micro - chipping has been mandatory in NSW since 97 and yet still registered breeders and all breeders for that matter in this state still put their puppies out without chips.

[Steve]

Steve my letters are about the fact that we don't need more laws nor more powers for the RSPCA (they have plenty to enable them to do some thing about dogs being kept in poor conditions such as Leo). And that what we really need is more accountability from the RSPCA which includes some sort of independent complains board. Also that the planning laws etc need to be tweaked to allow breeders some leeway with regards to whelping bitches inside since this is considered best practise and is backed up by research from the QLD uni. The laws will go through clearly but we can push for tweaking them.

I don't think we can keep beating the dead horse the way we are and as Asal says we are all backyard breeders really.

Much better to put more energy into education for the general public and for dog owners alike.

Yep thats it. Education and peer pressure. Not new laws and not more enforcement power.

Vicdogs should consider more about what they need to do to support and protect and promote their members and stop

playing politics with RSPCA animal lib and playing around in areas that is not their business.

Why is Vicdogs writing letters to a shire council to try to block a DA from someone who wants to breed cross bred dogs?

Not their member not their dogs nor their business. Why ?

Why didn't we stand on the steps of parliament house and tell them that they were stupid when they told us we had no right to make decisions on what we think is best for our dogs because now and then some idiot doesn't look after theirs well enough? Bloody hell in NSW they even tell us we cant feed our cats in the same room we have their water bowls. How many more regs and rules and laws do you want? Its already so over regulated that its a joke.Why on earth have we allowed them to tell us we cant decide how and when to breed them?

When laws which would see an old lady of 70 plus charged with 40 plus counts of animal cruelty for taking her dogs to a show were being drafted

it was then that there should have been a rally, it was then that we should have said "since when do we need council approval to have a vet take out

our dogs noise when we don't need council approval to have the vet kill it?