Question About Recall

[Bubitty]

Yesterday at the dog park Bitty met herself in the form of a border collie.

She has very good recall and will always walk beside me if I tell her not to approach another dog. Yesterday the BCs owner and I established that the dogs were friendly so we let them play. They had a REALLY good time running and chasing and more running and lots and lots of running etc

When it was time to go I called Bitty over and was about to shove a heap of treats at her for coming over but I had dropped the treats somewhere and couldnt find them. So I couldnt reward her before clipping her up.

After going home I am now a bit worried. Because she met a REALLY friendly dog and had a great time playing with her, I am worried that she will take off after random dogs now because its rewarding.

Is there anything I can do to make sure she will still come when I call even if its more fun to play with another dog?

[Aidan]

I wouldn't worry too much, but it's certainly something to think about addressing in your training. Recalls away from other dogs are a great thing to do. I wouldn't start while they are playing really excitedly, wait until they have settled down a bit. Another tip is for both owners to start walking away, then call your dogs as soon as they have noticed.

Missing a reward every now and then isn't a bad thing either, even when they are young.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i always make sure i get my dog to do something and sometimes i reward her and sometimes i dont. she comes everytime because she might get the reward that one time she came back.

eta i hope this makes sense, sort of like pavlov's dog

Edited October 14, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[poodlefan]

Bub:

So I couldnt reward her before clipping her up.

You still have praise and pats. Food is not the only reward dogs respond to.

Reinforcement of the recall is the way to go. Continued association of coming to you with good things is how its done. But frankly I'd not see one positive experience as undermining months of training unless it was very significant.

[Bubitty]

Thanks guys, I did praise like crazy but she is a greedy sort of dog so I would have felt more secure dishing up the treats.

Thanks for the "both walking away" tip Aiden! That sounds like a good idea.

OH thinks I am being paranoid but she had such a good time I am worried that playing with another dog will be of more value to her than any treats or me next time.

Mind you she loves bouncing humans but will stay away from them when I tell her to.......................

[poodlefan]

OH thinks I am being paranoid but she had such a good time I am worried that playing with another dog will be of more value to her than any treats or me next time.

At some point Bub you have to have confidence in your training and trust your dog. I know you're not thinking of limiting her enjoyment of other dogs to ensure her focus on you but it's not an unusual response to these questions.

One suggestion I would make is not to get into the habit of only calling her away from dogs to leash up. Make a habit of calling her away, rewarding and releasing her back to play - no negative associations can stem from the recall then.

Edited October 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[JulesP]

I call my pup back heaps whilst she is playing, give her lots of pats and then send her off again. I think it is important to show the dog that a recall doesn't always mean that the fun is over.

[aussielover]

i always make sure i get my dog to do something and sometimes i reward her and sometimes i dont. she comes everytime because she might get the reward that one time she came back.

eta i hope this makes sense, sort of like pavlov's dog

I was under the impression that an intermittent reward schedule only resulted in the behaviour becomes more resistant to extinction and usally effects behaviour that the dog offers thmeselves rather than is commanded to do, not having effect on the actual reliability of obeying a command? Am confused now though

I prefer to reward my dog 100% for recall, i don't want her thinking i *might* get rewarded if i go back, i want her thinking i will DEFINITELY get a yummy piece of chicken, cheese etc if i go back now, Especially if it is a choice between playing with a friend or chasing a bird and coming back to me. Because if she only *might* get a reward, then its a choice between maybe chicken but defintiely getting to play/chase birdie etc....

I don't know perhaps a trainer could recommend whats best?

I dont reward for slow recalls though, but will reward for recalling off a big distraction always.

I do only reward somtimes for other behaviours though.

Pavlovs dog is a result of classical conditioning, nothing like intermittent rewards??

[Bubitty]

I am so glad I posted even though it seemed like a bit of a numpty question!!!!

Yes! I will get roast chook and call her back a bit next time she has another good play session.

Now that I have stopped fretting and think about it, both the dogs checked in with their owners yesterday during play so its not like she just p@ssed off forever and didnt bother with me at all.

Poodlefan, she is my first dog where everything seems to have "clicked" training wise so I am always fretting that something will lead her astray.

Heheh not to say that Bubby is untrained but he is a different dog

[poodlefan]

aussielover:

I prefer to reward my dog 100% for recall

x 2

I reward even if its an ordinary recall. My dogs are taught that when the whistle is blown, ALL dogs get a treat.

Edited October 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[fainty_girl]

If Tilly ignores me when I am calling her away from another dog I walk in the opposite direction from her...it's not that I don't want her interacting with other dogs, I want to be able to call her away from other dogs and I want her to know that if she runs off to go and play with another dog and doesn't listen to me, i'm not going over to her. This has worked well for Tilly...she is still a pretty impulsive dog, but this has helped quite a bit.

If it is time to leave somewhere and she is not listening, I start the ignition on my car - that sound pretty much always gets her attention too.

Tilly responds really well to praise too...she always looks rather chuffed with herself when I tell her she's a good girl when she comes back to me.

Edited October 14, 2010 by fainty_girl

[Aidan]

I was under the impression that an intermittent reward schedule only resulted in the behaviour becomes more resistant to extinction and usally effects behaviour that the dog offers thmeselves rather than is commanded to do, not having effect on the actual reliability of obeying a command? Am confused now though

The first part is right - intermittent schedules make the behaviour more resistant to extinction, and what that means is that if you don't reinforce 2,3,4 times in a row the behaviour won't weaken. At some point the behaviour will weaken if you stop rewarding, but that point takes longer to reach if you use an intermittent (variable) schedule. Whereas if you reward every time (1 behaviour : 1 reward) the behaviour will weaken sooner if you stop rewarding (for whatever reason), but we're not just talking once or twice! It has to be several times. So if you don't need to go long periods without rewarding, there is no penalty to pay for using a continuous schedule of reinforcement (1:1).

Whether it is a cued response or offered without a cue doesn't matter.

I prefer to reward my dog 100% for recall, i don't want her thinking i *might* get rewarded if i go back, i want her thinking i will DEFINITELY get a yummy piece of chicken, cheese etc if i go back now, Especially if it is a choice between playing with a friend or chasing a bird and coming back to me.

Without going into the theoretical approaches for predicting which behaviour will "win", a reward of lower value can "trump" a reward of higher value depending on the learning history, and certainly having a high rate of reinforcement stacks the deck in your favour and is a good reason to use a 1:1 ratio, unless you are going to go through periods of non-reinforcement (e.g a trial that demands many repetitions of a behaviour without reward; heeling in an obedience trial).

For those interested in a more in-depth summary of the science of choice behaviour, I have written an article on choice behaviour in relation to the recall which can be found here:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2970

[aussielover]

Thanks aidan

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i should have been clearer, my dog always gets a reward but not just food. she gets pats or food or a play with a fav toy.

i just want to make sure that she always recalls.

i also have an emergency word which is "WAIT" and if i call this she stops dead in her tracks...no matter what she is doing and i go and collect her.

her recall is now 100% and my daughter was watching her and took her for a walk and didnt do the collar up properly and jaxx got loose. well first off she didnt race away and secondly when she was called back she came back

so she recalls for anyone who is in charge of her which i am very happy with. not so sure i was happy with the situation happening though

eta

txs aidan that is a great article. thats what i do but i didnt know i was doing it.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I try not to clip after a recall, or only to unclip and release again as soon as possible.

I tend to clip up about five to ten minutes before we need to go, or the other side of the oval and work on some heel work or stand for exams on lead or whatever comes into my head because I don't want her to associate recall with being clipped up and going home.

So even if you can do a bit of chasey or heel work with loads of pats and praise or a game of tug with the end of the lead (it is possible to teach the dog when it's ok to play tug with lead and when it isn't) before you go home, that helps disassociate the clip up from the recall - I hope. I always feel bad if I clip up after a recall no matter how much good stuff I have for reward. We have gotten loads better because we're doing agility training which is release, run, clip up, reward, rest, release, run, clip up, reward, rest etc. Ie the best reward for a recall - clip up for my dog - is a release to play.

So if you can get her back while she has a dog to play with - recall, clip her up, treat, do 5 seconds of heel work, treat and release to play - that will get it in her head that it's ok to come back during play.

[megan_]

I have an extra command for clipping the leash" "leash time". I say it in a happy voice, they both stand still (even tilt their heads so I can get to the D-ring) and then I give them a treat and/or play and I always go on a little walk once they have their leashes on (so leash doesn't = the end of fun/home time).

Bub - I treat every time on recall. When they give me a nice recall, I give them a jackpot. I practice recall at least a few times a day, so the behaviour is pretty much conditioned. We have lots of recalls where I don't leash them up - they go back to playing afterwards.

[Bubitty]

I practice recall heaps Megan. She goes to the park twice a day so we do it in the morning and in the afternoon. Basically every time she checks in with me (without me asking) I treat her or when I call and she comes I treat her.

It took us another 20 mins to walk home after I clipped her up yesterday. Does this mean the recall was probably not as bad as I imagined?

[megan_]

I think it means that you wubs Bitty and worry too much

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

For me, leaving the park with the other dogs, is the end of fun time. She doesn't like the walk home much, even when she feels ok enough to sniff. It would depend on your dog, but I have some on lead time at the park just before I go home because that works for me. Sometimes I put my dog on lead in the middle of park time. Especially if there has been a bbq at the clubrooms recently, or she's been showing excessive interest in the hedge (coming out with cooked lamb bones).

[aussielover]

My dog is fine going on the lead and always stands still and doesn't try to run. But she really drags herself home or to the car.

Sometimes she will refuse to move! I think she is just tesing me, so after encouraging her in a happy voice i tug on the lead and she seems to reluctantly come and realise that there is no other choice. And she gives me a really depressed look

Any tips?